A + J = T

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Maybe it was hif wifes last wish that Tywin would raise the child

"Promise me, Tywin." Maybe, though I hope and believe GRRM has a bit more imagination than resorting to such blatant self-plagiarism. Why not simply let him stay in the dark? He already has ample reason to behave the way he does towards Tyrion (freakish monstrosity that robbed him of his wife) & Aerys (ungrateful jerk who dissed his daughter and robbed him of his son).

[piratesswoop]

The Reason why Tywin raised Aerys's son is that he didnt want to make a public statement about his wife being raped.

Joanna died in childbirth, I feel like that would've made things even easier for Tywin to smother a newborn if not only did the baby's birth kill his beloved wife, but the child wasn't his in the first place.

[theREALjonsnow]

"Promise me, Tywin." Maybe, though I hope and believe GRRM has a bit more imagination than resorting to such blatant self-plagiarism. Why not simply let him stay in the dark? He already has ample reason to behave the way he does towards Tyrion (freakish monstrosity that robbed him of his wife) & Aerys (ungrateful jerk who dissed his daughter and robbed him of his son).

i think Tyrion's favorite uncle Gerion Lannister will be the person who tells him the truth about the Tywin/Aerys/Joanna dynamic. also gonna give him house lannister sword to help improve his claim to the rock!

[Lord Freypie]

Just two questions :

Is there anyone here who likes the idea of Tyrion being an hidden Targaryan ?

Is there anyone here who dislikes the idea of Tyrion being an hidden Targaryan but still finds very likely he is one ?

Personnally I'm in the second category. Tyrion being a Targaryan was my first idea of hidden targ, since my first read of Agot when his mention of dragon dreams made me reread his description, that was far before I realised R+L=J (and two books before Aerys interest for Joanna was even mentionned), and as since I see mostly hints confirming this suspicion (dragon dreams, compatible propheties, share Dany taste for hot baths, + the affermentioned interest of Aerys for Joanna of course etc..) I have difficulties not believing in it. On the other hand, I dislike the idea of Tyrion being an hidden targ since his relation with Tywin was developped, his tragic relation with his father becoming far less tragic if he is in fact a real bastard. And as well because I find one hidden targ Jon is already more than enough farmboy archetype character (and there's also (f)Aegon for a third).

Now seeing the number of people bashing the A+J=T theory on forums, I suspect lots of people refuse it.because they share these same dislikes (+ a few because they also hate the Tyrion character and so wouldn't want him to take even more importance), despite in fact recognizing in the deep of their minds that there are far more elements in this direction than opposing the theory.

And I'm also curious to learn if there are a few liking the idea, and what positives effect they think it may have on the story if it's true.

[Mayura]

On this topic, it has probably been stated, but when Tyrion comes to his father to ask for Casterly Rock, Tywin replies something like "I will give you a position that befits your name because I cannot prove that you are not mine".

But I don't think it means Tywin genuinely suspects anything. I just think he never got over the fact his second son was born a dwarf and he cannot believe the dwarf came from his seed. However, as several people tellhim throughout the books, Tyrion is the only "true heir" of Tywin, they think so much alike. And I also guess this is precisely why Tywin gets angry everytime his ressemblance to Tyrion is raised by someone, he realises this is the case but his pride refuses to aknowledge he really fathered a dwarf.

But I indeed think that if Tywin really suspected anything, he would have disposed of Tyrion a long time ago.

On topic thus: I think Tyrion is very much a Lannister. I don't see why he would have to be a hidden Targ, apart from Aerys's attraction to Tywin's wife, there are no other evidence to support this theory. Arya Stark and Bran Stark (and let's even say nearly everyone in Westeros) are very much interested by the dragons/dragon stories and the Starks were also playing at pretending to be the Dragonprinces. Liking dragons doesn't make them hidden Targaryens.

[Cladinshadow]

On this topic, it has probably been stated, but when Tyrion comes to his father to ask for Casterly Rock, Tywin replies something like "I will give you a position that befits your name because I cannot prove that you are not mine".

This is the exact quote:

“You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men’s laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine."

[Stannis the Menace]

In the scene where Tyrion asks for Casterly Rock, doesnt Tywin say at one point in the conversation "..and since I cant prove that you are not mine.."

seems like he knows and i think that is what causes a lot of the animosity towards tyrion

[Stannis the Menace]

This is the exact quote:

“You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men’s laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine."

beat me to it

[Red Knight]

Well, I'll preface this response by saying that I HATE every "X is secretly a Targaryen" theories.

Personally, I hate the idea of Tyrion being Aerys' son because it would undermine the rivalry between Tywin and Tyrion. The entire backbone of their relationship is that he possesses all the qualities of his father yet is a complete failure to him. The idea that "Tyrion is Tywin's son" is what makes the resentment that much more interesting. Tywin considers him a shame on House Lannister for his personality, yet it is that personality that makes Tyrion just like him. He is cunning, politically intelligent, and (up until the end of SoS) has tremendous love for his family.

There also isn't much evidence. The fact that he has "blonde hair that seemed white" is kind of a non-factor IMO. Aurane Waters has the same kind of hair and he isn't a Targeryen (so I hope). I dislike this theory more than I dislike the theory that Jaime and Cersei are secret Targs... and I HATE THAT THEORY

i agree with every word man

enough with secret targeryans, we have had one too much already

[DragonsHungry]

Just two questions :

Is there anyone here who likes the idea of Tyrion being an hidden Targaryan ?

Is there anyone here who dislikes the idea of Tyrion being an hidden Targaryan but still finds very likely he is one ?

Personnally I'm in the second category. Tyrion being a Targaryan was my first idea of hidden targ, since my first read of Agot when his mention of dragon dreams made me reread his description, that was far before I realised R+L=J (and two books before Aerys interest for Joanna was even mentionned), and as since I see mostly hints confirming this suspicion (dragon dreams, compatible propheties, share Dany taste for hot baths, + the affermentioned interest of Aerys for Joanna of course etc..) I have difficulties not believing in it. On the other hand, I dislike the idea of Tyrion being an hidden targ since his relation with Tywin was developped, his tragic relation with his father becoming far less tragic if he is in fact a real bastard. And as well because I find one hidden targ Jon is already more than enough farmboy archetype character (and there's also (f)Aegon for a third).

Now seeing the number of people bashing the A+J=T theory on forums, I suspect lots of people refuse it.because they share these same dislikes (+ a few because they also hate the Tyrion character and so wouldn't want him to take even more importance), despite in fact recognizing in the deep of their minds that there are far more elements in this direction than opposing the theory.

And I'm also curious to learn if there are a few liking the idea, and what positives effect they think it may have on the story if it's true.

I think it is entirely possible, there are compelling quotes people have pointed out, I can't dispute the evidence, but personally I completely hate the idea of Tyrion being a secret Targ, it lessens Tyrion killing Tywin to me and blunts that impact.

The underdog likable dwarf is a secret prince destined to ride a dragon? It will sound and look freaking ridiculous, he goes from my "rooting for" list and one of my favorite characters and moves to the "hope he dies horribly" list in the last two books.

[The Red Hand]

I think it is entirely possible, there are compelling quotes people have pointed out, I can't dispute the evidence, but personally I completely hate the idea of Tyrion being a secret Targ, it lessens Tyrion killing Tywin to me and blunts that impact.

The underdog likable dwarf is a secret prince destined to ride a dragon? It will sound and look freaking ridiculous, he goes from my "rooting for" list and one of my favorite characters and moves to the "hope he dies horribly" list in the last two books.

I respect the fact that you can look past your dislike of this theory and still find it plausible. That being said I disagree with some of the things you said:

- A+J=T makes Tywin a more sympathetic character IMO. If he has a reason for treating Tyrion like a bastard it makes Tyrion murdering him even more tragic. And even if it blunts Tywin's death thats only true of re-reads, where everything is pretty blunted.

- I doubt Tyrion will turn into some shining hero, hes a bastard, a kinslyaer, and a "kingslayer" and he'll probably have a Bloodraven-like sinister reputation for the rest of his life.

- Even if A+J=T turns out to be false I still see Tyrion riding Viserion, their matching colors, their both being small, and Tyrion's childhood stament:"Once, when his uncles asked him what gift he wanted for his nameday, he begged them for a dragon. It wouldn't need to be a big one. It could be little, like I am. His uncle Gerion thought that was the funniest thing he had ever heard-" all make me think Tyrion riding Visy is bound to happen. Just saying your dislike of A+J=T and your dislike of Tyrion as a dragonrider may be exclusive to each other. Also, it wouldn't be as ridiculous as Tyrion going into a battle frenzy at the Blackwater.

[Lord Freypie]

By the way battle frenzy may be a trait related to targaryan madness, in a battle where a fleet was in fire.

[DragonsHungry]

I respect the fact that you can look past your dislike of this theory and still find it plausible. That being said I disagree with some of the things you said:

- A+J=T makes Tywin a more sympathetic character IMO. If he has a reason for treating Tyrion like a bastard it makes Tyrion murdering him even more tragic. And even if it blunts Tywin's death thats only true of re-reads, where everything is pretty blunted.

- I doubt Tyrion will turn into some shining hero, hes a bastard, a kinslyaer, and a "kingslayer" and he'll probably have a Bloodraven-like sinister reputation for the rest of his life.

- Even if A+J=T turns out to be false I still see Tyrion riding Viserion, their matching colors, their both being small, and Tyrion's childhood stament:"Once, when his uncles asked him what gift he wanted for his nameday, he begged them for a dragon. It wouldn't need to be a big one. It could be little, like I am. His uncle Gerion thought that was the funniest thing he had ever heard-" all make me think Tyrion riding Visy is bound to happen. Just saying your dislike of A+J=T and your dislike of Tyrion as a dragonrider may be exclusive to each other. Also, it wouldn't be as ridiculous as Tyrion going into a battle frenzy at the Blackwater.

It is simply my opinion and tastes. I hate the theory and don't like it, nor care for Tyrion being a dragonrider, but it could happen, anything is possible in this story.

[The Red Hand]

It is simply my opinion and tastes. I hate the theory and don't like it, nor care for Tyrion being a dragonrider, but it could happen, anything is possible in this story.

Agreed, I apologize if I was too critical. Honestly, I'm a little worried about whether Tyrion riding a dragon will be stupid myself. Just have to hope GRRM makes it as epic as usual.

[DragonsHungry]

Agreed, I apologize if I was too critical. Honestly, I'm a little worried about whether Tyrion riding a dragon will be stupid myself. Just have to hope GRRM makes it as epic as usual.

No worries Red Hand. I like Tyrion's character, but anything is possible really, GRRM seeds things all the time that may or may not be true.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Honestly, I'm a little worried about whether Tyrion riding a dragon will be stupid myself. Just have to hope GRRM makes it as epic as usual.

Yeah, if GRRM wants Tyrion to ride a dragon, he'll pull it off with style and I don't believe we would have to fear that it would be ridiculous.

But then again, I also believe that the third mount will be Ghost and Dany will ride him to her first meeting with Jon, so probably I've just lost all sense of what's ridiculous and what isn't long ago.

[Maegor the Cuddly]

At this point, the plotline would seem quite frankly contrived and forced. All we've got for this theory is white-blonde hair, an interest in dragons, and some daydreaming fantasies of being a Targ Prince. For all we know, his interest in dragons could purely be academic in nature, and simply awed by the power of them, compared to the relative weakness of his own body, he sees it as a way that he will get the respect that he feels he deserves. Same with the Targ Prince, it's an escapist fantasy to shed his "deformed dwarf" skin for a little bit and be someone of influence and importance. Somebody everyone wants to curry favor with and someone who takes no sh*t from anyone.

And the hair, despite it being "almost white", is still blonde.

[Crono.gr]

Even if Tyrion is half Targaryen, Tywin is still his father. He raised him. ;)

I think it will make more intersting the Tyrion development.

[The Red Hand]

Yeah, if GRRM wants Tyrion to ride a dragon, he'll pull it off with style and I don't believe we would have to fear that it would be ridiculous.

But then again, I also believe that the third mount will be Ghost and Dany will ride him to her first meeting with Jon, so probably I've just lost all sense of what's ridiculous and what isn't long ago.

I have this pet theory that Viserion and Rhaegal will die, Jon will get an ice dragon(somehow), Theon will get a sea dragon(somehow) and they'll end up being the 3 heads. Crazy, right?

At this point, the plotline would seem quite frankly contrived and forced. All we've got for this theory is white-blonde hair, an interest in dragons, and some daydreaming fantasies of being a Targ Prince. For all we know, his interest in dragons could purely be academic in nature, and simply awed by the power of them, compared to the relative weakness of his own body, he sees it as a way that he will get the respect that he feels he deserves. Same with the Targ Prince, it's an escapist fantasy to shed his "deformed dwarf" skin for a little bit and be someone of influence and importance. Somebody everyone wants to curry favor with and someone who takes no sh*t from anyone.

And the hair, despite it being "almost white", is still blonde.

If a targaryen prince can suddenly make a claim for the IT 5 books in and not be too contrived or forced(to me), then the revelation that a main character is a Targ bastard wouldn't either. Also, the combination of white and blond hairs matches the description of some targs. It might be a coincedence, but I'm not so sure. And Tywin's "I cannot prove you are not mine" and his obstinate refusal to give Tyrion CR are the strongest support for A+J=T IMO.

Even if Tyrion is half Targaryen, Tywin is still his father. He raised him. ;)

I think it will make more intersting the Tyrion development.

:agree:

[treehuggerz]

My ideas for the A+J=T are that tyrion used to pretend he was a lost targaryen prince. Dragon dreams. And what we know of the affair between joanna and aerys. They grew up together. Aerys used to be quite charming. Who knows of the love they harbored. I think tyrion is one of the heads he killed his mother. Jon killed his mother. And dany killed her mother. I don't think their are coincedences in the stories. Grrm is the one true god of westeros.

Also, there is the resistance to illness. Why didn't Tyrion get greyscale or bloody flux?

As for an affair between J and A, I would think it would have been more rape than love affair. Remenber, J didn't want C to marry R.

Tywin would not have known Tyrion was not his son but I'm sure he wished he wasn't, dwarf that he is. Perhaps Tywin finally "knew" when Tyrion shot him.