Comparing Historical Events/Characters to the Series

[SeethemFly]

Half the time I read the series I spend my time trying to see which characters and events are similar to people events in history, and here are some of my thoughts.

The Lannisters

This family are clearly a reflection of the Borgia's. Not only was Tywin the most powerful man in Westeros (like Rodrigo Borgia being the Pope), a rivalry developed between Tyrion and Jaime (just like with Cesare and Juan Borgia), and most importantly Cersei and Jaime and the whole twincest thing (Cesare was suspected of killing his sister Lucrezia's husbands because they were conducting an affair).

Cersei Lannister

Cersei is seemingly a reflection of a lot of mad and bad women of history. Not only is she like Lucrezia Borgia, she also seems a bit like Isabella of France (who famously ordered her husband Edward II's murder), and most notably Margaret of Anjou, the Lancastrian leader during the Wars of the Roses. She led her faction when her husband was incapacitated and her son was a minor, just like Cersei, and also went mad at the loss of her only child. Possibly a reflection of Cersei's later prophesy? She also seems a little like Edward IV's mistress, Jane Shore, who had to do a walk of penance around London for being a mistress.

Joffery Baratheon

The son of Cersei, he is similar to Margaret of Anjou's son, Edward of Lancaster, who was reportedly cruel and arrogant. Margaret supposedly took him to executions from a young age and he developed a blood thirsty streak. Like Edward too, Joffrey dies young, but by poison and not in battle.

The Brothers Baratheon

To me, Robert, Renly and Stannis are a clear reflection of the brothers of the House of York during the Wars of the Roses. Robert is like the eldest York brother Edward IV, an unparalled military commander who who usurped the previous king and descended into drinking and whoring because he had nothing better to do, before dying relatively young. Renly is like the middle York brother, George, Duke of Clarence, who was very good looking and charming but with little substance who tried repeatedly to gain the throne before being supposedly drowned in a barrell of Malmsey wine on the orders of his brother Edward (whereas Stannis killed Renly). Stannis is similar to the last brother, Richard III, who had righteous convictions and was driven by the law. Although he became king, he famously lost his crown at the Battle of Bosworth Field. Will Stannis ever have the chance to suffer a similar fate?

Melisandre

Melisandre seems a lot like Anne Boleyn. Not only is she a younger, prettier woman who the king clearly adores (in Anne's case Henry VIII, in Melisandre's case Stannis) but like Anne, Melisandre is bringing a new religion with her (in Anne's case Protestantism, in Melisandre's the whole Red God thing).

Margaery Tyrell

I think she's really similar to Mary, Queen of Scots. Like Margaery, Mary was extremely beautiful and married several times for political reasons. Firstly, she married a king (Renly/Francis II of France), then she married someone who was brutally murdered (Joffrey through poison and Henry, Lord Darnley through strangulation or explosion). They only differ on their last husband; where Mary was kidnapped and raped by a powerful Lord, the Earl of Bothwell, Margaery's husband is putty in her hands. They were also both imprisoned by jealous/threatened Queens who were older than them (Cersei/Elizabeth I). Mary's story ended with execution, but we will have to wait and see what happens to Margaery.

Bran and Rickon

They seem like the Princes in the Tower. Two little boys who are the heirs to a vast inheritance (the Crown of England/Winterfell) but disappear unexpectedly and are presumed dead. While the real life princes were probably murdered, Bran and Rickon escaped.

Sansa

Right, this one may be a long shot I know, but Sansa and Elizabeth I. Not only has she witnessed the execution of a parent (in Sansa's case, Ned, in Elizabeth's case her mother Anne Boleyn), but she has had to learn how to survive on her own. Interestingly, when Elizabeth was about fourteen she was supposedly sexually abused by her stepmother Catherine Parr's husband, Thomas Seymour, who should have been occupying a parental position for her, but instead took advantage (Littlefinger, anyone?)

Daenerys

Possibly also based on Margaret of Anjou. A dispossessed Queen who is trying everything to regain her throne, and also going a little mad in the process.

I would love to hear what you guys think, because as a history fanatic I love comparing the two!

[SeethemFly]

Ooh! I just thought of another one!

Brienne

Another possibly vague one but Brienne is a bit Joan of Arc in a woman warrior way. Unless she starts leading the French to overcome the English by kicking them out of France, I don't think its going to be a direct parallel!

[Where The Weirwood Weeps]

GRRM mentioned the War of the Roses several in interviews, but he compares the fighting between the Yorks & the Lancasters to the Starks & the Lannisters. I only know a basic overview of War of the Roses (I know more about the Tudor era), but your description of the 3 Yorks really fits the 3 Baratheons better.

Overall I love all your connections. The only one I feel is wrong is the Anne Boleyn/Melisandre comparison. Anne Boleyn's marriage sparked the formation of the Church of England, but she and King Henry III were both Catholic before that point. Plus, ADWD hints of Melisandre being older than she appears. The "I promise you a son" thing is only in the show, so I don't know how much validity it has to it. I won't prattle on about it, but I just don't see it.

Lysa Aryn

I want to compare Juana of Castile to Lysa Aryn, but there are TOO many differences. Things in common: A poisoned husband/sudden sickness; mental instability (that's a maybe on Juana); the men in their lives (father, husband) controlling their life; a husband that did not reciprocate their strong love (LF & Lysa). Differences include: Juana was a Regnant, not a Regent; Juana had one husband; Juana's marriage was fertile-6 healthy children; Juana was locked up for 50 years while still being Queen Regnant, by her husband/father/children. It easily falls apart.

edit: Brienne? They are both shield maidens right...? I think Joan of Arc counted as a shield maidens

[SeethemFly]

I hadn't thought of the whole Juana the Mad/Lysa thing but now you've said it I can see it! I also thought Lysa was a little like Mary I - unable to have kids (well, Robert's a bit unhealthy, lets not count him), the man she loves does not love her back, and she ends up bitter and twisted about it.

The whole Melisandre thing and Anne Boleyn I thought was quite a comparison. Yes, Anne was nominally a Catholic but she was a reformist who gave the whole reform idea to Henry to help him think of becoming Head of the Church of England himself, while Melisandre's, let's just say, a little more forward with her religion!

[Alester Florent]

There's something of the Beauforts about the Starks, I think. Generation after generation killed off in their prime by whoever happens to be in power at that moment, until it looks like the fortunes of the house have been completely eradicated. Of course, it was a Beaufort descendant who ended up taking the throne eventually.

Joffrey looks a bit like Richard II - a young king succeeding a well-loved ruler, who rapidly turns into a tyrant. Then again, there's also something of Richard II about Aerys. The kingdom's failure to recover from Aerys has led to the current civil war, just as the failure in England to define the lasting succession to Richard II led ultimately to the Wars of the Roses.

The parallels between Aegon and the pretenders under Henry VII (particularly Perkin Warbeck) are also rather marked, although that doesn't necessarily preclude Aegon's being the real deal.

[King Daemon Blackfyre]

I think the Red Wedding has a lot of paralells to the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bartholomew's_Day_massacre).

A wedding to treacherously lure enemies who trusted you (Starks/Hugenot nobles) into a vulnerable position at your stronghold (the Twins/Paris), in order to carry out targeted assasinations of enemy nobles, which became a full-blown massacre. The massacre crippled the Hugenot cause and was a turning point in the French Wars of Religion, similar to the destruction of the Stark army ending the WOTFK.

[Spinozaad]

The High Sparrow just screams Girolamo Savonarola.

I have always imagined Tyrion to be at least partially influenced by either Machiavelli or Voltaire (or both); amoral when it comes to the exercise of power (but not immoral!), literate, educated, too witty for his own good, not being truly part of the political elite (but not being outside of power either), more "enlightened" than his peers (but still very much an elitist), exiled by his enemies, etc.

[James Arryn]

Oberyn Martell, meet Richard Francis Burton, the most interesting human being who ever lived.

[louzeyre]

I would say Margaery is more an amalgamation of Katharine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn. Unlike Mary she never held the crown in her own right and never married for love. Like Katharine she married first one claimant to the throne then another to keep her crown (and specifically two different brothers) and continues to assert that she has never consummated a marriage. Her current situation and trial I believe GRRM has specifically stated was inspired by Anne Boleyn.

While I think GRRM did specifically make Cersei similar in position to Elizabeth Woodville but in personality to a number of different women involved in the War of the Roses including Margaret of Anjou I personally see a lot of similarity between her and Catharine de Medici: married to a man who allowed her to have very little political power of her own during his life and who favored his mistresses to her but who eventually dies in an accident leaving her to rule through her sons as each of them take crown in turn during a time of civil war.

[SeethemFly]

I would say Margaery is more an amalgamation of Katharine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn. Unlike Mary she never held the crown in her own right and never married for love. Like Katharine she married first one claimant to the throne then another to keep her crown (and specifically two different brothers) and continues to assert that she has never consummated a marriage. Her current situation and trial I believe GRRM has specifically stated was inspired by Anne Boleyn.

While I think GRRM did specifically make Cersei similar in position to Elizabeth Woodville but in personality to a number of different women involved in the War of the Roses including Margaret of Anjou I personally see a lot of similarity between her and Catharine de Medici: married to a man who allowed her to have very little political power of her own during his life and who favored his mistresses to her but who eventually dies in an accident leaving her to rule through her sons as each of them take crown in turn during a time of civil war.

Yes! I never thought of Catherine de'Medici, that really is a good analysis!

I think the Red Wedding has a lot of paralells to the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre (http://en.wikipedia....'s_Day_massacre).

A wedding to treacherously lure enemies who trusted you (Starks/Hugenot nobles) into a vulnerable position at your stronghold (the Twins/Paris), in order to carry out targeted assasinations of enemy nobles, which became a full-blown massacre. The massacre crippled the Hugenot cause and was a turning point in the French Wars of Religion, similar to the destruction of the Stark army ending the WOTFK.

I always thought that the Red Wedding reminded me when I went to Edinburgh for a weekend. I went to Edinburgh Castle and they told us about "The Black Dinner". James II of Scotland was a minor king who was ruled by a series of regents. His government was particularly dominated by Archibald Douglas, Earl of Douglas and James' mother, Joan Beaufort. After Archibald died, other nobles, William Crichton and Alexander Livingstone, who resented the Douglas family power, moved against Joan Beaufort and had her stripped of her son and put under house arrest.

Then they decided to destroy the Douglas family. In the King's name, they invited Archibald's successor, the sixteen year old William Douglas, Earl of Douglas and his eleven year old younger brother, David, to a dinner at Edinburgh Castle. They were entertained and sat at the king's table, but at the end of the evening both brothers were accused of trumped up charges and they were beheaded on the castle green. It destroyed Douglas family power, quite similarly to the way the Red Wedding ended the power of the Starks.

[Where The Weirwood Weeps]

I hadn't thought of the whole Juana the Mad/Lysa thing but now you've said it I can see it! I also thought Lysa was a little like Mary I - unable to have kids (well, Robert's a bit unhealthy, lets not count him), the man she loves does not love her back, and she ends up bitter and twisted about it.

Plus Mary I's marriage was unpopular with her people, though for different reasons than LF/Lysa Aryn. I just can't think of any historical woman of power, who murdered, had bad marriages, was unstable, was murdered, was manipulated by a lover, and was weak minded. Well... a real one anyway ^_^

The whole Melisandre thing and Anne Boleyn I thought was quite a comparison. Yes, Anne was nominally a Catholic but she was a reformist who gave the whole reform idea to Henry to help him think of becoming Head of the Church of England himself, while Melisandre's, let's just say, a little more forward with her religion!

Wasn't that for more social political reasons than religious? To be remarried in the Catholic Church, the first marriage must be annulled, the result being that any children from that marriage are rendered illegitimate. For their potential son and any other offspring to be legitimate heirs to the throne, they needed his first marriage to be annulled by the Pope. IIRC, whether the Pope wanted to or not, the H.R.E. aka Cat of Aragon's nephew had him in a good enough grip to not allow that. If Henry wanted results (not counting some of the other positives of breaking with the Roman Catholic Church) he HAD to control it. Even after he became the head of the Church of England, she would have been more concerned being recognized as Queen, having the heir, and eventually the just trying to stay in Henry's good graces... I miss the days when this was simple like in Anne of a Thousand Days. I liked that movie when I saw as a kid.

Rhilor's will is Melisandre that she aide Stannis/AA save the Westeros from the Great Other... or so she believes. She may do a little political maneuvering... "Who's your enemy?" "Renly." "Oh, I saw him dead in my fire, so Rhilor will deliver." "He died in the night." But 85% of what she does is religiously motivated and for Rhilor. She worships Stannis because she thinks he's AA.

Plus I can't see Melisendre ever marrying Stannis while Seleys is alive.... And now I am scared of what I just typed. Melisendre could be just as old as Seleys is not older. Many people keep on throwing around the theory that she's Shiera Seastar for some reason, making close to Bloodraven's age. I don't place any stock in theory though.

I think the Red Wedding has a lot of paralells to the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre (http://en.wikipedia....'s_Day_massacre).

A wedding to treacherously lure enemies who trusted you (Starks/Hugenot nobles) into a vulnerable position at your stronghold (the Twins/Paris), in order to carry out targeted assasinations of enemy nobles, which became a full-blown massacre. The massacre crippled the Hugenot cause and was a turning point in the French Wars of Religion, similar to the destruction of the Stark army ending the WOTFK.

The High Sparrow just screams Girolamo Savonarola.

If there was a "like" button function still...

Thank you for starting such an interesting thread SeethemFly! I hope my facts and grammar/spelling are right because I'm sleep deprived. I am off to bed!

[Where The Weirwood Weeps]

I always thought that the Red Wedding reminded me when I went to Edinburgh for a weekend. I went to Edinburgh Castle and they told us about "The Black Dinner". James II of Scotland was a minor king who was ruled by a series of regents. His government was particularly dominated by Archibald Douglas, Earl of Douglas and James' mother, Joan Beaufort. After Archibald died, other nobles, William Crichton and Alexander Livingstone, who resented the Douglas family power, moved against Joan Beaufort and had her stripped of her son and put under house arrest.

Then they decided to destroy the Douglas family. In the King's name, they invited Archibald's successor, the sixteen year old William Douglas, Earl of Douglas and his eleven year old younger brother, David, to a dinner at Edinburgh Castle. They were entertained and sat at the king's table, but at the end of the evening both brothers were accused of trumped up charges and they were beheaded on the castle green. It destroyed Douglas family power, quite similarly to the way the Red Wedding ended the power of the Starks.

I've never even heard of that one! :stunned: Thank you.

[SeethemFly]

There's something of the Beauforts about the Starks, I think. Generation after generation killed off in their prime by whoever happens to be in power at that moment, until it looks like the fortunes of the house have been completely eradicated. Of course, it was a Beaufort descendant who ended up taking the throne eventually.

Joffrey looks a bit like Richard II - a young king succeeding a well-loved ruler, who rapidly turns into a tyrant. Then again, there's also something of Richard II about Aerys. The kingdom's failure to recover from Aerys has led to the current civil war, just as the failure in England to define the lasting succession to Richard II led ultimately to the Wars of the Roses.

The parallels between Aegon and the pretenders under Henry VII (particularly Perkin Warbeck) are also rather marked, although that doesn't necessarily preclude Aegon's being the real deal.

Mmmm, I hadn't thought of the whole Perkin Warbeck thing. He also reminds me of the series of False Dimitri's in the Time of Troubles in the 1600s in Russia. There were basically a series of people who pretended to be Dimitri, the son of Ivan the Terrible, who was killed in 1591. Maria Mniszech, a Polish noblewoman, married two of these False Dimitri's in turn but they both succumbed to violent deaths.

I would say Margaery is more an amalgamation of Katharine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn. Unlike Mary she never held the crown in her own right and never married for love. Like Katharine she married first one claimant to the throne then another to keep her crown (and specifically two different brothers) and continues to assert that she has never consummated a marriage. Her current situation and trial I believe GRRM has specifically stated was inspired by Anne Boleyn.

Wasn't that for more social political reasons than religious? To be remarried in the Catholic Church, the first marriage must be annulled, the result being that any children from that marriage are rendered illegitimate. For their potential son and any other offspring to be legitimate heirs to the throne, they needed his first marriage to be annulled by the Pope.

I can see bits of Anne Boleyn in Margaery and in Melisandre, Margaery because of the whole trial thing and Melisandre because she has Stannis under her spell!

[Spinozaad]

Another "historical precedence" to the Red Wedding could be the Duke of Alva's treatment of the counts of Egmont and Hoorne, and their subsequent execution.

In 1566 the "Iconoclastic Fury" raged through some parts of the Dutch provinces (part of the Spanish empire of Philip II), wherein protestants plundered catholic churches and defaced statues of Saints. In response, Philip II send the Duke of Alva to surpress this revolt. By the time the Duke of Alva arrived in the Low Countries, the "revolt" had already subsided. Nevertheless, Alva put to work and invited the Dutch nobility ("we" still had one back then) for diner and a conversation regarding their loyalties. Egmont and Hoorne were subsequently arrested and, later, executed. Which, more or less, sparked the 80 Years' War.

[Aerys Blackfyre]

about the Lannister being a reflection of the Borgias, I totally disagree

completely different characters, completely different story

for example, there's no rivalry between Tyrion an Jaime, they just loved each other until the Imp killed their father

Lucrezia and Cesare were not twins

and the most important thing: all Rodrigo's children were technically bastards, while Tywin's were legittimate

[King Daemon Blackfyre]

The High Sparrow just screams Girolamo Savonarola.

Also, the Sparrows, (a mass, organised, armed, peasant-based, religious movement), are reminiscent of the Taiping and Boxer Rebellions(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion)

China had a lot of peasant rebellions...

[SeanF]

I agree the Lannisters are definitely not the Borgias. The Borgias don't have an obvious equivalent in Westeros, although I think the Martells have something in common.

I certainly see Oberyn as Cesare, intelligent, dashing, a gifted warrior, lecherous, but rash. The sexual licentiousness of the Martells' court mirrors that of Alexander VI's court, and Renaissance Italy (I'm sure that when Oberyn or Arianne presided over banquets at Sunspear, people didn't just turn up for food, wine, and conversation). The Martells' knowledge of poisons, and willingness to use them, mirrors the allegations made against the Borgias. Doran, however, is not a Borgia. To me, he resembles Henry VII.

[SeanF]

WRT Cersei, I think the original poster's identification of her with Edward II's Queen, Isabella, is spot-on.

They were both renowned for their beauty, became disillusioned with their husbands (and both had good reason), committed adultery (and therefore treason), plotted to remove their husbands, ruled their kingdoms for a time, following the removal of their husbands, and were both ultimately brought down by the bad decisions they took when they were in government.

Of course, Robert Baratheon is not Edward II; Mortimer was a much more capable figure than Lancel or Osmund Kettleblack, and Isabella's life had a happier ending than Cersei's, as she was allowed to retire in comfort, after her son brought her rule to an end.

[louzeyre]

I've always thought of Robert as being Edward IV if he hadn't married for "love" and instead allowed the Kingmaker to choose his bride the way he originally intended.

If R+L = J is true I can see more than a few parallel between Jon's birth and Henry VII's. Both were born during a civil war in heavily fortified castles chosen specifically to avoid the fighting after their fathers were killed to young mothers and raised mostly by their Uncle. Of course Margaret Beauford lived (barely) and helped to bring her son to the throne.

There are also more than a few parallel to Uther and Igraine for that matter, but that's a different thread.

I've always found it odd that there isn't an equivalent to Beauford really in Westero.

I believe GRRM has mentioned that the Red Wedding was inspired by he Black Dinner which I always found odd since it reminds me so much of St. Bartholomew's massacre.

SeeThemFly: Thank you. For added irony, in my history class in high school we referred to the French wars of religion as "The War of the Four Henrys."

[Keirut]

I love all yout connections but Sansa's. She has anything of Elizabeth I