Arya / No One / and the Water Motif in Braavos

[Little Wing]

Ah, indeed, I'm a winged vampire kitten so it seems :laugh: take your time evita, we'll get big heads from all the praise :cool4: Arya_Nym's post rocks though!

[Sand Snake No. 9]

There's already a very, very good thread on Mormon't Raven already. Do a search.

[evita mgfs]

There's already a very, very good thread on Mormon't Raven already. Do a search.

:bowdown: SAND SNAKE: I know - I have been there! But we are going to look at them as pets, and put a different spin on the tricksy bird. We couldn't leave him out because people in our group LOVE that raven. After all, he is the type of pet who can be annoying, like my dogs who steal my remote control, or my mouse, my pens, my denture glue, and run outside to hide them in their hole unde the picnic table. But if you think we should dump him from our list, we can do. He is a tricksy bird to follow anyway, and he always wants Corn! Corn! Corn!. :devil:

I believe, Sand Snake, and I may be wrong, but someone brought up that YOU had a fondness for the bird, so we included him especially for you, my dear. And since you are the expert, we will yield to your advice, if you wish. :blushing:

Ah, indeed, I'm a winged vampire kitten so it seems :laugh: take your time evita, we'll get big heads from all the praise :cool4: Arya_Nym's post rocks though!

LITTLE WING, I needed my high test glasses to see the fangs. Neato - I am a vampire fan as well! :ack:

[ARYa_Nym]

Speaking of bats when Arya was up in the trees she said that she could hear the bats coming out of the trees to hunt.

More on Swan Lake since I mainly spoke on the movie before.

The role of Odile requires athleticism.

"The Coda of the Black Swan Pas de Deux is especially noteworthy and shows the athleticism required of the dancers dancing the role of Odile (The Black Swan) and the role of Prince Siegfried. The 32 fouettes that the dancer dancing the role of Odile performs are particularly difficult."

Odette was forced to live by lake after having a spell put on her by Von Rothbart who is regarded as a sorcerer.

The prince Siegfried loves to hunt and the romance starts when he finds her in the forest.

Act 1:

Scene I: Deep in a Dark Wood

Odette, a young maiden, is in the forest. The evil knight Rothbart appears and captures her, turning her into a white swan. She is cursed to remain a swan during the day, and a maiden at night.

Act 2:

A mountainous wild place, surrounded by forest. In the distance a lake, on the right side of which are ruins. A moonlit night.

Siegfried aims his crossbow at the swans and readies himself for their landing by the lakeside. When one comes into view, however, he stops. Before him is a beautiful creature dressed in white feathers, more woman than swan. Enamored, the two dance and Siegfried learns that the swan maiden is the princess Odette. An evil sorcerer, von Rothbart, has captured her and used his magic to turn her into a swan by day. Every night, she becomes a woman again.

Act 3:

The Prince returns to the castle to attend the ball. Von Rothbart arrives in disguise with his own daughter Odile. He has made Odile identical to Odette in all respects except that she wears black rather than white. The prince mistakes her for Odette, dances with her, and proclaims to the court that he intends to make her his wife. Only a moment too late, Siegfried sees the real Odette and realizes his mistake.

Arya is the Night Wolf and in touch with her wolf at night and during the day she is No One. Odile disguised herself as Odette and seduced the prince. Arya arc currently involves her disguising herself as different identities so the deception is there.

When Arya said that she wanted to be a swan there was also a duality there. Part of her wanted to be one and the other part wanted to eat it. That could be like Odile leading to Odette's destruction. Odette wanted freedom since she was under a spell and only in death did she get it.

Von Rothbart is rarely seen in his human form. We may not be seeing the KM's true form. He is also planning to teach her the art of sorcery with the glamors.

I posted a quote about how Odette is supposed to be light and delicate in her movements. This can relate to Arya learning stealth while with the FM and previously with Syrio as opposed to her actions in AGoT when fighting Joffrey. She has to learn more control.

Swift as a deer...Quiet as shadow...Quick as a snake...Calm as still water

Arya could be the fearful and fragile Odette as the mouse in Harrenhal. It was Jaqen who made her feel brave and who also gave her the coin she needed to cross the seas towards her transformation.

As for Lady of the Long Lake some legends say:

In some stories she left Merlin tied up in the magic forest, Broceliande, trapped in an oak tree or entangled forever in a thorn-bush.

[evita mgfs]

I am not much taken by the water motif, George does stuff like this and then it sums up to nothing.

It's been my hunch all along that Arya is a piece of the 'Great Conspiracy' that involves not only her but also Dany and Tryion. That she was shadowed by Jaquen , on purpose, from KL, which is why he always knew who she was (it was no slip by Gendry or Hot Pie that leaked that) and explains why Jaqen was with the Yoren's crew (I don't believe he was ever in the dungeons at KL, he joined that group on his own , which for a FM would have been easy). His mission was to 'size up' , give Arya the coin and set her the test of making it to Braavos on her own.

I think the FM are taking orders from the Varys-Illyrio conspiracy which may be a bigger conspiracy than even Varys-Illyrio even know.

I don't know , but I have this guess that something BIG is afoot that involves Dany, Tryion and Arya.

Arya's FM training is just a tool for her arsenal, and I think the FM intend it to be that way. (Somehow I think Jaqen will come back as a player too.)

So Arya keeps this connection with Nymeria and Needle because it's her identity, and I also think the FM want it that way no matter what they say.

The heck with the water!

BOOJAM: :bowdown: Thank you for presenting your well-conceived theories. :bowdown:

You know, I am not disposed to your theory at all :blushing: - but what I am missing from this theory is the element of magic and the role of the godhood. How will this play out in the Varys/Illyrio conspiracy? And is Littlefinger involved as well with his Braavosi connections and his link to the Iron Bank of Braavos? I have read theories about this as well, so I am not opposed to this conspiracy being associated with the FM - I just feel that Bran was called forth and guided to Bloodraven for a purpose, and that Arya will be an agent of the old gods as well as a Faceless assassin.

• The order of the FM seems disposed to give a gift of death only to those deserving of such, and those marked are somehow chosen by the final deity for all men, who is Him of Many Faces.
  
• Him of Many Faces seems strangely, and deliberately, associated with Bloodraven, Bran, and the godhood that is part of the weirwoods, which are also of Many Faces.
  
• Bran is learning to be "of many faces" in his role as a greenseer and as the chosen one with great magical powers that make him sit the weirwood throne. [i think often pash! to that iron throne - the real important throne here is the one that Bran now sits, along with BR and the greenseers already part of trees who sing the Song of Ice and Fire in a tongue long forgotten in Winterfell, but once known by the First Men and still remembered in the aspect that is Howland Reed, a great water force who, IMO, now sits enshrined on his own weirwood throne, although he is not wedded to his tree yet, and his ww is no doubt buried in the muddy waters and swamps of GWW.
  
• Also, it may be only coincidence, but the name GreyWater Watch suggests that whatever force the crannogmen possess, they are Watching, just like Bran and BR, only over the "grey waters" and those who inhabit or sail such waters.
  
• Nymeria is a gift sent by the old gods, and she will join Arya, and perhaps Arya will lead an army of wolves into battle, which I think would be neat - she will be like Xena Warrior princess and Beast Master combined.
  
• I also think the scholarship presented by ARYA NYM is near indisputable, and that Arya, as well as being wolf is also fish, for she is half Stark and half-Tully, her genetic disposition speaks to the fact that she may very well represent the host for those water powers that are the knowledge of Howland Reed and his crannogmen.
  
• And what of Sansa; we must not forget the "little bird" locked in her cage on the Eyrie, now a free little bird. She is a warg as well, and maybe soon we will see this little bird, who was called that for a reason, IMO. She will be "a little bird", very much like Varys' whisperers, and when she learns that she, through the gift from the old gods that mark her warg and the Stark blood in her veins, will take flight and watch from the heavens all that Bran and BR and Arya and HR cannot do, for these forces will need to unite to defeat the great Other and turn back the long night to defeat the winds of winter and welcome a song of spring.
  
• Also, are the dead warded in the Stark crypts a blind or red herring as well? This would be a cruel jape on readers if we never get to see those dead bones rise at the behest of the old gods returning their spirits now trapped in the heart tree of WF.
  
• As I see it, Sansa as a little bird must need fit into your theory of Varys as whisperer as well, or is her epithet of little bird just an affectionate coincidence - or merely an ironic one, because she is a little bird locked in a cage, miming the opinions of others? I like to believe Sansa is the Stark whose latent powers she will come to in time - and maybe these powers will be initiated when she must warg a bird when someone needs to be rescued when they fall from the eyrie during a climb up or down. I see her warging a falcon, the sigil of House Arryn, and I see her motherly instincts uniting her warg talents, for even though little Cock Robin is annoying, he is still a small, fragile child, and one easily picked up by an oversized, mythological type falcon who weill swoop to save his life and carry him to safety.
  

But they are my crackpot theories, and I think, if we include the magic into your theory, the forces of V/I and the godhoods can exist parallel and simultaneously with one another, yes? I even see their possible end results maybe being aligned. After all, is not the evil forces of Winter Coming and the Others and their minions coming so great that they need even the great conspirators to join the fight against the night? :dunno:

I hope you get my drift, for I am not discounting your :bowdown: fine analysis, and I thank your for sharing. You made valid points, and I am one who can see both sides of an argument.

[evita mgfs]

Comparisons of The Black Swan/Swan Lake:

snip

Arya would be the opposite because she likes to get wet in the sea and if anything would be more the Odile (Black Swan) than Odette (White Swan).

:bowdown: :thumbsup: ARY NYM, Once again I am awestruck by your fine presentation of the swan. I will only add the story of the ugly duckling, who is so much like our little Arya who suffered being called Arya Horse face, and who thinks she is still ugly because she is not as pretty and as lady like as her awesome sister Sansa, whom I love and truly believe will be the force of AIR, which I think we should do next as a thread.

Anyways, back to the Ugly Duckling, Arya becomes an Ugly Girl for her spying mission, and after her success, the kindly man tells her next time she will be a pretty girl, as pretty as her own face is. Arya is like the Swan the Ugly Duckling becomes, and we will see her transformation as such in the WoW, I hope. And maybe Arya herself will even believe she is no longer Arya Horseface any more, or Blind Beth and the Ugly Girl.

:bowdown: Again, awesome posts. Truly scholarly and masterful!

[evita mgfs]

Ice + Fire = Water

Super-flimsy train of thought here, but Arya seems pretty watery to me, more so than any other character. She's changeable, fluid and, above all, a "water dancer." If you're one for the R+L=J theory, that could explain why Jon is closer to Arya than any other Stark. The two of them are similar, a mixture of Ice and Fire.

In any case, water is definitely a mixture of Ice (the Starks, the Wall and the Others) and Fire (the Targaryens, the dragons and Azor Ahai) so even if it's not directly related to Arya, those two elements have to come together eventually. The fact that Arya/No One is currently hopping around in Braavos on islands surrounded by said water could be symbolic of something. I have no idea what that something is, though. Possibly her Starkish Icyness being melted away and leaving her separated from her family and home by the Melted Essence of Stark? When she was surrounded by Ice back in Winterfell, she was Arya Stark. Now, with the ice having melted, she's No One.

:bowdown: :bowdown: ROSE RIVERS I absolutely love this whole concept of Stark Ice and Arya melting. I agree that Arya and Jon's path are linked, and I even did a post where I took the vows of the Night's Watch and applied them to Arya. I am going to look for it now and post it here, because you are not the only one who has been linking Jon to Arya and even connecting the water motif to Jon and the Ice and Fire component, soooo GOOD JOB, ROSE RIVERS. You win love from me and Arya, our littlest mermaid: :love:

Not flimsy at all - maybe the many associations of Arya with water in the text are a foreshadowing that Arya will be one of those that are left in the wake of the clash of Ice and Fire... It will definitely be sink or swim then, and Arya is a good swimmer ^_^

:bowdown: :bowdown: LITTLE WING: As always, you have that sharp wit I do not. Yes, Arya will sink or swim. :agree: I can related to this because I myself learned to swim at age four, and became a competitive synchronized swimmer, even coming in third place in the duet category in the Junior Olympics. But that was long ago . . .

I also wonder about that force of fire and how it will be delivered. I hope that Dany and Jon and their fire component will work together with Water and Air.

I also mentioned doing a thread on Sansa: "little bird" or more: the force that is AIR? Do you think we can make a case for the natural elements? Air - Sansa? Water - Arya? Earth - Bran? and Fire, Dany and Jon? :dunno:

[evita mgfs]

Since posters are connecting Arya and Jon, I thought I would add my post comparing Arya and Jon and the similar WATCHES they keep.

I can see Arya’s service with the Faceless Men as parallel to Jon’s oath to the Night Watch:

[with a few adjustments in the vows to attend to Arya’s female sex]

Night gathers, and now my watch begins

• “On the night the moon went black” (FfC 772), Arya returns to her duties at the House of Black and White, where she tends the dead and serves other Faceless Men and priests at their monthly gathering. Both involve the verb watch: whether literally or figuratively.
  
• Arya calls her own self the Night Wolf, for she is the dark force who escorts, metaphorically and figuratively, the dead to their final resting places – to the Shadowlands, Nightlands, or roots of trees. She associates herself with the Night where she is in charge of watching and caring for the dead, as well as taking good care of her victims.
  
• The Night Wolf’s prayer is still Arya of House Stark: “Ser Gregor . . . Dunsen, Raff the /sweetling, Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei” (DwD 593).
  
• Night is also represented when Arya is made blind through a potion given to her:
  

“. . . every dawn she woke to darkness” (DwD 593).

• “Hear, smell, taste, feel . . . there are many ways to know the world for those who cannot see” (DwD 594).
  
• When Arya asks the Waif how long she must be blind, she answers, “Until darkness is as sweet to you as light . . . “ (DwD596).
  
• Also, when he has an assignment, she studies him far in advance, learning his habits, his schedule, his clientele, and so on. She watches, maybe not on a Wall specifically, but from a perch with a good vantage point, as the Wall with its height allows the NW to lookout over the haunted forest, etc. to spot the enemy’s arrival.
  

It shall not end until my death.

Once part of their order, it is for life. She will take an oath at some point, for the Kindly Old Man tells her, “We are but his servants, sworn to do his will” (FfC 772).

• Also, the Kindly Old Man tells Arya: “The cost is all of you” (FfC 452).
  

• Arya may die as a Faceless Man ironically, as well. For example, if she joins the mummers in the Purple Harbor or elsewise, she may perform a death scene – or act the part of a character who dies in a mummer’s play.
  

I shall take no wife [husband], / hold no lands, / [father [mother] no children.

I shall wear no crowns and win no glory.

• “Women bring life into the world. We bring the gift of death. No one can do both” (FfC 453).
  
• The Kindly Old Man tells Arya, “. . . the Many Faced God will take your ears, your nose, your tongue. He will take your sad grey eyes that have seen so much. He will take your hands, your feet, your arms and legs, your private parts. He will take your hopes and dreams, your loves and hates. Those who enter his service must give up all that makes them who they are” (FfC 453-453).
  

I am the watcher on the walls. /I am the shield that guards the realms of men.

• “All [realms of men] must bow to him [Him of Many Faces] in the end, no matter . . .” (FfC 722) what their faith.
  
• “All mankind belongs to him . . . else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?” ( 722).
  
• “It is not for you to say who shall live and who shall die. That gift belongs to Him of Many Faces” (772).
  
• She is a shield in an ironic sense compared to the Night’s Watch, who keep an eye out for the marching death that the Others and their minions represent. Arya, on the other hand, is an instrument of death for some deserving appointee of Him of Many Faces, the end god of the godhood. She shields the victim or victims of the recipient of the Him of Many Face’s gift.
  

I pledge my life and my honor to the Night’s Watch, for this Night and all nights to come.

• Once part of their order, it is for life. She will take an oath at some point, for the Kindly Old Man tells her, “We are but his servants, sworn to do his will” (FfC 772).
  

• Since she learns the arts of deception, especially the skills of spotting a lie and telling a lie, her sense of honor may be skewed. Her honor is serving a God of Many Faces as an instrument of death, which is an ironic twist to the “shield” – Arya is, in a sense, protecting the interests of others who seek out the deaths of supposedly deserving victims.
  

Just thoughts. :dunno:

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

I love your swan posts Arya Nym! They reminded me a lot of a song I know. I'm not sure if GRRM could possibly be influenced by this song, for it's Dutch, but it might be based on a more international story, so I'll post it anyway (it's a very very beautiful song anyway) and translate it.

You can listen to it here: http://www.mielcools.nl/teksten/dezevenzwanen.html

er dreven zeven witte zwanen Seven white swans were floating

op een meer zo helder als 't paradijs on a lake as clear as paradise

op een dag schrokken ze op, 't was een meer van tranen One day they shied away, it was a lake of tears

en de zeven zwanen togen op reis and the seven swans went on a journey

op reis om de bron van 't verdriet te vinden On a journey to find the source/spring/well of the sorrow

nog nooit hadden zij iets zo bitters gesmaakt never had they tasted something so bitter

ze wiekten door regen en winterwinden They fluttered through rain and winter winds

in hen was de trekvogel weer ontwaakt in them the birds of passage were awoken again

elke zwaan trok langs één van de zeven stromen Every swan travelled along one of the seven streams

die straalden om 't meer in een zilveren ster that shone around the lake like a silver star

hun vleugelslag werd elke dag wat lomer Their wingbeat grew everyday some more languid

de wind was koud en de tocht was ver the wind was cold and the journey was far

maar eens werden zeven stromen beken But once the seven streams became brooks

en eens werden zeven beken bron and once seven brooks became a spring/source

zo daalde elke zwaan, na dagen en weken So landed every swan, after days and weeks

op een plek waar 't verdriet van de wereld begon at a place where the sorrow of the world started

er weenden zeven moeders over d'aarde There were seven mothers weeping over/about the earth

heel ver weende Eva om de eerste moord very far Eve weeped about the first murder

een weende om 't geld dat haar Judas aanvaardde One weeped about the money that her Judas accepted

en een om haar zoon die aan het kruis werd doorboord and one for het son who was pierced at the cross

aan het front viel een man, een moeder schreide At the (battle)front fell a man, a mother cried

op een plein klonk een salvo, een moeder riep on a square sounded a salvo, a mother shouted

een weende om herinnering aan betere tijden One weeped for the memory of better times

en een om haar kind dat verloren liep and one for her child that walked lost

toen zijn de zeven witte zwanen Then the seven white swans

teruggekeerd, het hart vol pijn returned, their heart full of pain

naar hun zilveren meer van mensentranen To their silver lake of human tears

om er met hun zorg alleen te zijn to be there alone with their worries/troubles

maar toen de mensen de zwanen zagen But when the people saw the swans

toen grepen ze wapens en schoten ze neer they grabbed their wapons and shot them down

en niemand begreep iets de volgende dagen And no one understood anything the following days

van het dreigende wassen van het meer of the treatening washing/growing of the lake

As you see here, the lake is compared with sorrow, tears, a (seven pointed) star and silver (star moon). Could it be that arya's attraction and relation to water is meant as a link to her burden/grief?

There also are a few examples of crying mothers (most taken from christianity). Mothers are very important in the series, the Mother in the Faith is mentioned most often as well. The murders: The first murder (Ned/Bran), treachery(LF?Freys), the martyr(Robb/Ned), people dying in battle, Execution (Karstark/Ned/Bran + Rickon), the lost child that walks alone (Arya/Sansa).

I don't think GRRM was actually inspired by this song. The murders are very common things, but it did give me some insights on the lake of tears idea. The lake of tears could also be a reference to the Styx, with death and grief going hand in hand. Arya would be the child of grief.

[ARYa_Nym]

I love your swan posts Arya Nym! They reminded me a lot of a song I know. I'm not sure if GRRM could possibly be influenced by this song, for it's Dutch, but it might be based on a more international story, so I'll post it anyway (it's a very very beautiful song anyway) and translate it.

You can listen to it here: http://www.mielcools...evenzwanen.html

As you see here, the lake is compared with sorrow, tears, a (seven pointed) star and silver (star moon). Could it be that arya's attraction and relation to water is meant as a link to her burden/grief?

There also are a few examples of crying mothers (most taken from christianity). Mothers are very important in the series, the Mother in the Faith is mentioned most often as well. The murders: The first murder (Ned/Bran), treachery(LF?Freys), the martyr(Robb/Ned), people dying in battle, Execution (Karstark/Ned/Bran + Rickon), the lost child that walks alone (Arya/Sansa).

I don't think GRRM was actually inspired by this song. The murders are very common things, but it did give me some insights on the lake of tears idea. The lake of tears could also be a reference to the Styx, with death and grief going hand in hand. Arya would be the child of grief.

Thanks.

It could be. The Rhoynar worshipped the Mother Rhoyne.

Mother Rhoyne is the chief goddess of the Rhoynar. She represent the river Rhoyne. Her waters nourished the Rhoynar since the dawn of days. ^[1]

As for Swan Lake it's inspirations comes from The Dying Swan.

The Dying Swan (originally The Swan) is a ballet choreographed by Mikhail Fokine in 1905 to Camille Saint-Saëns's cello solo Le Cygne from Le Carnaval des Animaux as a pièce d'occasion for the ballerina Anna Pavlova. The short ballet follows the last moments in the life of a swan, and was first presented in St. Petersburg, Russia in 1905. Pavlova performed the dance about 4,000 times. The ballet has since influenced modern interpretations of Odette in Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake and has inspired non-traditional interpretations and various adaptations.

The short ballet has influenced interpretations of Odette in Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake, particularly in the parting of the lovers in the first lakeside scene.^[4]

Anna had transformed the norms for beauty and for ballet. Her physical description matches Arya's.

Yet Pavlova also looks peculiarly modern. She was mocked at school for the extreme slenderness of her limbs, and for her pale face and dark eyes – the antithesis of the tough, plumply pretty ballerinas who ruled the Mariinsky in the early 20th century. Yet by the 1930s, Pavlova's rarified physique had set the template for ballerina beauty.

The Dying Swan conveys a lot of the emotions you mentioned.

The Dying Swan" is not about a woman impersonating a bird, it's about the fragility of life - all life - and the passion with which we hold on to it. Pavlova's sheer dramatic intensity forcibly conveyed this truth to the audience, and the work was an instant success.

^{A parallel to Arya is that The Dying Swan is danced en pointe.}

“When you dance “The Dying Swan” you are en point (balanced on your toes) the entire time, only at the end when the swan dies do you collapse."

Syrio had Arya practicing how to balance on her toes.

"Syrio says a water dancer can stand on one toe for hours…"She hopped from her right leg to her left, swaying dangerously before she regained her balance…."Syrio says a water dancer never falls.”

& lol, when Jon gave Arya Needle he said how do you like the balance and then told her to stick them with the pointy end.

The Dying Swan is haunting, beautiful, and emotional. The swan fights for life up until its last moments.

:bowdown: :thumbsup: ARY NYM, Once again I am awestruck by your fine presentation of the swan. I will only add the story of the ugly duckling, who is so much like our little Arya who suffered being called Arya Horse face, and who thinks she is still ugly because she is not as pretty and as lady like as her awesome sister Sansa, whom I love and truly believe will be the force of AIR, which I think we should do next as a thread.

Anyways, back to the Ugly Duckling, Arya becomes an Ugly Girl for her spying mission, and after her success, the kindly man tells her next time she will be a pretty girl, as pretty as her own face is. Arya is like the Swan the Ugly Duckling becomes, and we will see her transformation as such in the WoW, I hope. And maybe Arya herself will even believe she is no longer Arya Horseface any more, or Blind Beth and the Ugly Girl.

:bowdown: Again, awesome posts. Truly scholarly and masterful!

Thank you. I mentioned that.

It could also potentially relate to Jon because a potential inspiration for Hans was:

Speculation suggests that Andersen was the illegitimate son of prince Christian Frederik (later King Christian VIII of Denmark), and found this out some time before he wrote the book, and then that being a swan in the story was a metaphor not just for inner beauty and talent but also for secret royal lineage.^[7]

[Sandara Stark]

:bowdown: SANDARA STARK, Welcome! No one has developed this yet - we have been following tears so many other water related images and suggestive language, we did not get to the ice connection - only superfluously. Feel free to expand and join the discussion. We invite newbies to share - your ideas are always fresh! Keep it up and hone your posting skills here.

Arya is ICE but was "thawed" into WATER. WATER flows thus it can "travel" or go on a journey from rivers into bays, seas and then oceans. Like how Arya has been on a journey. Where WATER flow it brings growth but sometimes destruction, for example: flood waters. Arya has undergone changes in this journey both good and bad. Does WATER from the ocean finds its way back to the river that it comes from? Perhaps Arya will find her way back to where she came from also and be "frozen" into ICE again.

P.S. Thank you for the welcome. :love:

[evita mgfs]

BAVERAS, SANTHARIAN GODDESS OF THE SEA

I did a forum search before I posted this to make sure no one has said it before here or in other threads. I found not one hit. So here goes . . .

After learning that Martin admits Tolkien is a source of inspiration in his writing, I read through many Tolkien sites searching for water elements to relate to Arya, and I learned that in the elven mythology there exists a Santharian Goddess of the Sea who is called BAVERAS, which immediately made me think: BAVERAS sounds an awful lot like BRAAVOS.

So I explored further and found some Arya parallels with this water entity.

Baveras is the Goddess of the Sea and the Water. Baveras reflects water most, the water representing the uncertainty in the flow of time, the water as a blessing, the water as a threat.

- Baveras, the Helping One, the Kind One, the Caring One

- Baveras, the Playful One, the Joyful One, the Lovely One

http://www.santharia.com/religions/baveras.htm#Symbols

Lots here to connect to Arya if it is worth pursuing.

[boojam]

I hope you get my drift, for I am not discounting your :bowdown: fine analysis, and I thank your for sharing. You made valid points, and I am one who can see both sides of an argument.

A thread about Arya has appeared many times so just picking up my old deductions again.

A lot of Sturm und Drang here that seems to occur on this forum and it's sub-spwan , people have fun with it.

I have never gotten the impression that George musses his mind with this kind of stuff , he just gets on with the story.

One caveat , I hope all readers have picked up on, never try to to anticipate what George and where George is taking this story!

I would not have it any other way, George always surprises me and I love surprise.

From my original post here I just emphasize one thing.

I have never understood why there was confusion about Jaqen being in the dark cells of KL.

I think the deduction has to be he never was!

We learn later what a FM is. A FM can be confined by time constraints but almost nothing else.

Only the way I can see it , is he is 'shadowing' Arya, because the the FM are interested in her, and the FM are likely acting as the agent of some higher power.

I am glad you mentioned the Iron Bank of Braavos (I know of no fantasy novel that has a powerful bank! only George would think of that!!)

I see Arya as being some kind of power player of the highest order in the later part of ASoIaF and the FM are just a step on the way.

The whole thing about Needle was a real break point, she actually defies her orders in keeping it, and on top of that, knowing the FM ... they had to know that she would... and that is exactly what they want, it's part of the mysterious grand plan. She will never become a FM but their methods will become important to her future journey .

My wild guess is that by the end of this story she will be a young woman who is one of the most important power players.

Want to get really wild?

I think Arya will come into possession of Dark Sister.

[rivergirl]

evita mgfs, thank you! I like your theory about the four elements, and i think you're probably right about who they relate to. The only concern i would have is the presence of too many Starks as elements, so maybe the four of them refer to religions rather than people. So by that train of thought, it could be:

Air- The Seven/The Many Faced God

Water- The Drowned God

Fire- Rh'llor

Earth- The Old Gods

[ARYa_Nym]

There's a chapter in LOTR that has black swans.

The Great River is the ninth chapter of the second book in The Fellowship of the Ring.

They pass barren lands laid waste by Sauron and come across no living things except black swans flying overhead.

The black swans apparently disturbed Aragorn.

In The Lord of the Rings, the Fellowship sees a flock of swans flying by while boating down the river. They are also mentioned to be black swans, which seems to disturb Aragorn.

In one of his books the swans helped the ships.

The swan was an important bird in the tales of the Elder Days. The Maia Ossë sent "many strong-winged swans" to draw the ships of the Teleri over Belegaer to Aman without help of the winds. The Teleri (later being called by the epithet the Swanherds)^[5] thus especially came to revere swans, and named their city Alqualondë (the Swanhaven) and built their ships in swan-form.^[6][7][8]

They are friends of the Ainur and Elves. The Elves used to build swan ships.

There are few mentions of him having nymphs in one of his stories.

Mermaids, or water spirits, were creatures only mentioned fleetingly in the earliest versions of the tales of Arda and linguistic writings of the Eldar.^[1][2] Other names for these creatures were foam-maidens, foam-fays, foam-riders,^[3] and nymphs.^[2]

The mermaids were part of what apparently was a three-fold division of the lesser Ainu spirits: sylphs (spirits of the air), sprites (spirits of the earth), and water spirits.^[4]

A basic division of two groups of water spirits, with their Elvish names, are given as follow:

• Oarni (troop of Ossë): "spirits of the sea"^[7]
  
• Falmaríni and Wingildi (troop of Ossë): "spirits of the sea-foam"^[7] (also wingildin, "foam-maidens, foam-fays"^[3]; also wingild- "nymph",^[2] or "foam-maiden"^[8])
  

ETA:

Oh, and on Lyanna in the flashback she pushes Benjen into the water.

"You be quiet, stupid," the girl said, tossing her own branch aside. "It"s just water. Do you want Old Nan to hear and run tell Father?"

Another parallel besides being half horse was that she may have been a tree maiden too as the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

[evita mgfs]

evita mgfs, thank you! I like your theory about the four elements, and i think you're probably right about who they relate to. The only concern i would have is the presence of too many Starks as elements, so maybe the four of them refer to religions rather than people. So by that train of thought, it could be:

Air- The Seven/The Many Faced God

Water- The Drowned God

Fire- Rh'llor

Earth- The Old Gods

:agree: Yes, in past posts, we added both the Drowned god and Howland Reed with the Arya power, suggesting they will combine forces for there is a lot of water to watch over and control.

We also linked the Him of Many Faces with BR, Bran, and the old gods.

:bowdown: :bowdown: Now - good call on the Red God. We had not develped that yet! Maybe she is more linked to Dany and the fire than Jon Snow, he is devoted to his father's gods, yet he is half Targ maybe, so he may be linked to R'hollor too, since he embodies Fire and Ice in his genetic make-up, if L + R = Jon. :dunno:

[ARYa_Nym]

Not complete but to expand on what was said earlier about Jaqen being given water like descriptions I found some for Jon and Gendry too.

Jon's POV:

“He remembered the day he had left Winterfell, all the bittersweet farewells…Arya raining kisses on him after he’d given her Needle…”

Arya's POV:

"Arya ran to him for a last hug. “Put down the sword first,” Jon warned her, laughing. She set it aside almost shyly and showered him with kisses."

Gendry is described like moisture.

“He blinked at her, startled. Strands of thick black hair, still wet from the bathhouse, fell across his deep blue eyes.”

“When she spied Gendry, his bare chest was slick with sweat, but the blue eyes under the heavy black hair had the stubborn look she remembered. Arya didn’t know that she even wanted to talk to him. It was his fault they’d all been caught.”

Unrelated but this could be like Lyanna listening to Rhaegar make music but in a different way.

“She watched the play of muscles in his chest and listened to the steel music he made. He’s strong, she thought.”

The Jaqen bath scene was already mentioned. His hair was given a water description too.

“His garb was ragged and filthy, but he had found time to wash and brush his hair. It streamed down across his shoulders, red and white and shiny, and Arya heard the girls giggling to each other in admiration.”

When traveling Arya leads Gendry and Hot Pie off the road to the water away from death.

"...following the twisting course of the water...up a stony bank...They could not stay on the road. There is death on the road, she told herself, death on all the roads."

However, at one point a woman said that the river tastes of war since all the dead are going downstream.

After Yoren died she mostly lived on water and acorns.

In AGoT when Arya is lost and can't see she thinks of Nymeria being by her side in the darkness and is lead to water.

"…blind and lost, pretending that Nymeria was padding along beside her in the darkness. At the end she was knee-deep in foul-smelling water, wishing she could dance upon it as Syrio might have…”

As for the river Styx oaths were often sworn by it.

Styx (STIX) The gods customarily invoked this river of the Underworld when swearing their most solemn and binding oaths.

The nymph Calypso swore by it to Odysseus.

& one time Arya says that the crypts were scary but she also used to hide and play down there. So even earlier she dwells amongst the dead.

"…ghosts did not frighten her. She used to hide in the crypts of Winterfell when she was little, and play games of come-into-my-castle and monsters and maidens amongst the stone kings on their thrones."

[evita mgfs]

Although not a pleasant thought, Arya sheds her blood on many occasions, notably when she is beaten by Yoren and by Weese; furthermore, when the priest applies her new face as an Ugly Girl, she sheds her blood.

So, looking up blood in the On-line Dictionary of Symbology, I found some interesting correlations where the blood as a water element might apply to the continuing motif of water.

Blood globally represents life itself, as the element of divine life that functions within the human body.

1. As an acolyte in the society of Faceless Men, Arya must learn that a death is a gift to give on behalf of Him of Many Faces. Arya must respect the “life force” that flows in all men and women, and kill only the targets she is assigned for he/she is most deserving of death.
   
2. Arya should not kill vengefully as she does with Dareon when she learns that he is a deserter of the Night’s Watch. So she herself “sheds” those precious drops, giving the gift of death to one she deems deserving.
   
3. However, she needs to learn that only the god, Him of Many Faces, can choose who lives or dies – not Arya.
   

It is repeatedly referred to as having magic powers and as the only food for the supernatural beings and it is also associated with "a variety of non-rational notions, include[ing] blood brotherhood, blood vengeance, blood baptism.

1. Magic is necessary to perform the ritual of face changing, which involves a small facial surgery almost like an out-patient procedure. It is Arya’s blood that binds the new face to her.
   
2. Blood as food for supernatural beings certainly brings to mind Bran who eats the weirwood paste that may be Jojen [i hope not].
   
3. Some theories about the dead Starks of WF and the Kings of Winter in the WF crypts involve a blood sacrifice before a heart tree.
   
4. Brotherhood and blood reminds me of Vargo Hoat’s “bloody mummers” in HarrenHell, whom she despises for their loyalty to the nasty crippler.
   
5. Bloody vengeance: Arya’s list represents ‘bloody vengeance’, which she achieves on some level by Jaqen granting her three names, or three “gifts” because she spared three lives.
   
6. Bloody vengeance: Arya’s attack on Poliver also demonstrates a bloody vengeance.
   
7. Baptism and Blood: When Arya becomes a faceless assassin, she is symbolically and literally baptized to assume a new identity, both by shedding her own blood and the blood of her targets.
   
8. Blood magic is also associated with characters in the series. I will mention the ineffective magic that failed to bring Khal Drogo back to his former self. However, the birth of the dragons represents the “fertility” aspect of blood symbolism.
   
9. King’s blood also supposedly has some power.
   

Since it corresponds so readily with the color red, it represents the end of a series which begins with sunlight (yellow) and follows intermediately with vegetable life (green).

1. The color red is associated with the red god and his priests and priestesses. It is also a color that is part of the weirwood trees, the holding place of the old gods of the north.
   
2. Moreover, yellow is the color of the eyes of the CoF; Nymeria has golden eyes, and Summer has yellow eyes.
   
3. Green is associated with the greenseers and those who have greendreams.
   
4. Shaggydog has green eyes.
   

Closely tied with passion, but also with death, war, sacrifice (specifically sheep, hog, bull and man) and the warding off of malicious powers -- 'blood has flowed, the danger is past' (Arabic saying).

1. Arya witnesses much passion among some of the servants and their captors while at HarrenHell. She thinks of one girl who is trying to sleep with every eligible Knight.
   
2. Arya is passionate about whatever she sets her mind to. For instance, she is determined to prove the kindly man wrong when he calls her liar, and when he tells her she is not made of the right stuff to be a hired assassin.
   
3. Arya is a passionate worker, whether scrubbing steps, tending the dead, or planning a hit. She throws herself into a job and makes sure it is well done.
   

Close ties to guilt, especially as bloodstains.

1. I am sure Arya worked with dead who wore bloodstained clothes. Sometimes people have survivor’s guilt when faced with death. They wonder why they still live when someone else dies.
   
2. But I am thinking more of the bloodstains she attributes to Ice when Ilyn Payne takes her father’s head. Poor little Arya seemingly feels great guilt over not being able to intercede on behalf of her beloved father. Moreover, in the comet that is a part of ACoK, Arya associates the red coloring of the comet’s tail with Ice. She sees the tail as Ice stained with blood when she and Gendry trace the comet’s path together during the night, and Arya sees Ice.
   
3. This also brings to mind Arya’s sweet sister Sansa whose moon blood stains her bedding at King’s Landing. Perhaps she feels guilt over her own body betraying her for she fears that now that she has flowered, Joffrey will get her with child.
   
4. Sansa tries to burn her bedding, attire, and even her mattress – she wants to hide her flowering.
   
5. Since she has seen Joff’s true nature, she no longer wants the scenario of marrying him and becoming a queen. Subconsciously, on some level, she may feel guilt over her unkind thoughts about Joffrey and mayhap a very small guilt over no longer wanting him sexually and no longer wanting to birth his children. Naw! I don’t believe that for a minute!
   

In the classical theory of procreation, menstrual blood is one of the two components from which new life comes about..."(Biederman, 43). Fertility.

Arya oft thinks she will be a woman grown soon, and she wonders when she will flower.

The kindly man tells her that she must give all of herself, including her gift to carry a child.

Blood and WINE are interchangeable symbols; in Chinese symbolism, blood and WATER are associated as complementariness, as THE YIN AND THE YANG.

The Faceless Men, whom Arya serves during the monthly meetings when the moon is black, also pours water, but they also drink wine. If blood and wine, and blood and water, are associated together symbolically, then the FM drink wine and water as they plot and plan who will kill whom, and the target will “symbolically” shed blood when he or she is confronted with the assassin, who they will never see coming.

The term cold blood refers to unfeeling.

Part of being an assassin is to be unfeeling. This is difficult at first for Arya. She tries to justify giving the gift. In the end, she succeeds. She suppresses any empathy she may have for her victims.

[ARYa_Nym]

I just thought of another parallel to Swan Lake:

My featherbed is deep and soft, and there I’ll lay you down,

I’ll dress you all in yellow silk, and on your head a crown.

For you shall be my lady love, and I shall be your lord.

I’ll always keep you warm and safe, and guard you with my sword.

…And how she smiled and how she laughed, the maiden of the tree

She spun away and said to him, no featherbed for me.

I’ll wear a gown of golden leaves, and bind my hair with grass

But you can be my forest love, and me your forest lass.

Arya wants her forest love and to be a man's forest lass. Siegfried liked to hunt and found Odette in the forest.

In a version danced by San Francisco Ballet in 2009, Siegfried and Odette throw themselves into the lake, as in the 1895 Mariinsky revival, and von Rothbart is destroyed. Two swans, implied to be the lovers, are then seen flying past the Moon.

Swan works perfectly for Arya because they are aquatic birds.

[ARYa_Nym]

Little Wing, I was inspired by one of your posts in the Heresy thread.

It's been theorized that Patchface is the true servant of the Drowned God and that if there is a Great Other it may be him.

"It is always summer under the sea,” he intoned. “The merwives wear nennymoans in their hair and weave gowns of silver seaweed. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

It was brought up how the AA legend says that he will bring about an endless summer and death itself will bend the knee.

The description of the merwives just seems to be the water version of the tree like description Arya was given in the No Featherbed for Me song.

"In the dark the dead are dancing."

This was interpreted as the dead rise again as wights. Insert the Drowned God's phrase here. Has Arya been dancing with the dead? Will she dance with the undead even more?

He tells Shireen:

[Away, Away] “Away, away,” the fool sang. “Come with me beneath the sea, away, away, away.” He took the little princess by one hand and drew her from the room, skipping.

I think he's basically telling her to die.

"Under the sea, it snows up, “said the fool. “and the rain is dry as bone. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

He describes the rain to be dry as bone. I don't know what this prophecy is referring to but to relate it to Arya:

"Sometimes if the corpse was big or fat she would struggle with the weight, but most of the dead were old dry bones in wrinkled skins. Arya would look at them as she washed them, wondering what brought them to the black pool. She remembered a tale she had heard from Old Nan, about how sometimes during a long winter men who’d lived beyond their years would announce that they were going hunting. And their daughters would weep and their sons would turn their faces to the fire, she could hear Old Nan saying, but no one would stop them, or ask what game they meant to hunt, with the snows so deep and the cold wind howling. She wondered what the old Braavosi told their sons and daughters, before they set off for the House of Black and White."

Arya washes the dry bones. I thought Old Nan's story was interesting. It's kind of like a last march and how she relates it to the House of Black and White. Old Nan's story sounds like the Others to me so I'm wondering if there will be an Others connection to Arya's story.

There was also a line about the Others hunting maids through the frozen forest.

Arya used to play and hide in the crypts. There have been theories that have linked the dead Kings to the Others.

"…ghosts did not frighten her. She used to hide in the crypts of Winterfell when she was little, and play games of come-into-my-castle and monsters and maidens amongst the stone kings on their thrones."

The KM told Arya about the Braavosi giving the Valyrians the gift.

Arya wanted the masters killed when he told her.

“He killed the slave? ” That did not sound right. “He should have killed the masters! ”

This account of it says that the Braavosi used water:

"On the day the Doom came to Valyria,it was said,a wall of water 300 feet high had descended on the island,drowning hundreds of thousand of men,women and children,leaving none to tell the tale but some fisherfolk who had been at sea and a handful of Velosi spearmen posted in a stout stone tower on the island's highest hill.,who had seen the hills and valleys beneath them turn into a raging sea...."

Now Valyria has the Smoking Sea.

The Smoking Sea is the area of water where the Valyrian Penninsula once existed. According to semi-canon sources it was once only a strait, but with the Doom of Valyria, the penninsula was subsumed and the strait was enlarged becoming the Smoking Sea.^[1] It remains a dangerous area to sail. It is reported to be haunted by demons.^[2]

Another possibility for Arya's sea monsters are squishers:

“Monsters,” Nimble Dick said, with relish... They’re always damp and fishy-smelling, but behind these blubbery lips they got rows of green teeth sharp as needles. Some say the First Men killed them all, but don’t you believe it. They come by night and steal bad little children, padding along on them webbed feet with a little squish squish sound. The girls they keep to breed with, but the boys they eat, tearing at them with those sharp green teeth.”

More parallels.

This scene reminds me a bit of Swan Lake only with a heron and the hunter attributed to a dragon.

"One time me and Drink and Cletus were hunting, and we came on these herons wading in the shallows…They made a pretty sight, aye, but then a hawk passed overhead, and they all took to wing like they’d seen a dragon…"

Bran:

“Princes should be allowed to sail the sea and hunt boar in the wolfswood and joust with lances.”

With the COTF:

"Slight as they were, the children were quick and graceful. Male and female hunted together, with weirwood bows and flying snares."

Again with the similar physical description. They used bows. Arya wanted to.

This is from a Bran POV:

"Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidsts the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye. "

The pact with the First Men was located somewhere near to where Arya and Nymeria were.

Heresy theories say that the wood dancer may have either died out, lived with the crannogs, or were displeased with the pact which led to the Others somehow.