Why is magic getting stronger?

[Drogo_BR]

Well guys, it seems very clear to me that somehow the magic is very weak at the begging of the books (even mel, a powerfull sorcerer used tricks to fake magic, as she admited on her POV)

If mel need tricks and she came from asshai (if i am not mistaken) so that problaby means that the rest of the red priests had no magic at all. I mean, its hard to believe that Toros just became a sorcerer from ground zero, and what about moquorro and his flames as well?

So thats something that have being bothering me: what made possible the return of the magic to the world? what is the relation between the return of the magic and the others?

Is there any discussion about that?

Ps.: take it easy with the newbie.

Ps2.: english is not my main language, only my third.

[Julius Caesar Augustus]

The return of dragons. Its mentioned in the books a few times but I don't have any quotes

[Drogo_BR]

The return of dragons. Its mentioned in the books a few times but I don't have any quotes

Yeah, i believe that the return of the dragons is a consequence of something else.

Before that we have White Walkers killing Waymar Royce, the ressurection of Drogo, Bran Green Dreams, BR warging the Mormont's crow and I belive there must have a few more that i forgot.

But hey, nice try!

[Khal GoGo]

As far as we can tell, the earliest 'magic', if you regard the White Walkers as magical, was the killing of Waymar Royce, right at the start. Do we hear about any magical occurrences shortly before this? Another important question(s)- What about magic after the long night/before the death of the last dragon?

[OberynBlackfyre]

many characters state that the dragons returning has to deal with the magic...

and GRRM explained the birth of the dragons as a "One time miracle event", so I think it was just Dany fulfillinf her prophecy. The Children and Others get their powers from other sources, some thay may have never went out of the world, as Asshai has always seemed to be just as magical as ever.

[Drogo_BR]

As far as we can tell, the earliest 'magic', if you regard the White Walkers as magical, was the killing of Waymar Royce, right at the start. Do we hear about any magical occurrences shortly before this? Another important question(s)- What about magic after the long night/before the death of the last dragon?

I suspect Mance might have done something, if I recall correctly Ygritte say that they didn't know what the wildlings might have awake when they were looking for the Horn of Joramun.

And yes, I believe the White Walkers are magical beings.

many characters state that the dragons returning has to deal with the magic...

and GRRM explained the birth of the dragons as a "One time miracle event", so I think it was just Dany fulfillinf her prophecy. The Children and Others get their powers from other sources, some thay may have never went out of the world, as Asshai has always seemed to be just as magical as ever.

Might be, but i dont buy it either, I mean, if they have another source, why invade the south now? Why wait for milleniums (since the long night, or so it seems)? It just looks like the return of the magic is the stone that hold the sistem together...

[Wagshell]

Yeah, i believe that the return of the dragons is a consequence of something else.

Before that we have White Walkers killing Waymar Royce, the ressurection of Drogo, Bran Green Dreams, BR warging the Mormont's crow and I belive there must have a few more that i forgot.

But hey, nice try!

There was magic before, but it wasn't as successful until the dragons came back. The Others aren't necessarily using spells, the resurrection of Drogo was a use of magic she'd seen before, so wasn't anything new and wasn't exactly successful. The warging and green dreams had always existed, Jojen's done it all his life, but it could be becoming stronger now. I think certain things act as a catalyst for magic. The dragons are clearly one, but Melisandre suggests that the wall itself is full of old magic too. The red priests in particular seem to be noticing the effects of dragons returning.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I imagine that it's cyclical — it comes and goes.

While I think that the dragons may have spurred on or helped accelerate some forms of magic, I don't buy that the dragons themselves are the root cause of its return. Namely because, you get into a chicken-egg situation. If you need magic to hatch dragons, how can the dragons be what brings magic back? If there's no magic without dragons, how do you get the magic to hatch them? And if you have the magic to hatch dragons, then obviously that magic can predate them. I tend to believe that naming the dragons as the sole cause is making a correlation-causation error.

There are also plenty of supernatural people and events (such as wargs and greenseers) that predate the dragons' hatching by a considerable amount of time.

[Lion of Judah]

When Quaithe meets Dany she claims that Dany is responsible for the enhancement of their magical powers, not her dragons.

"A fine trick," announced Jhogo with admiration.

"No trick," a woman said in the Common Tongue.

Dany had not noticed Quaithe in the crowd, yet there she stood, eyes wet and shiny behind the implacable red lacquer mask. "What mean you, my lady?"

"Half a year gone, that man could scarcely wake fire from dragonglass. He had some small skill with powders and wildfire, sufficient to entrance a crowd while his cutpurses did their work. He could walk across hot coals and make burning roses bloom in the air, but he could no more aspire to climb the fiery ladder than a common fisherman could hope to catch a kraken in his nets."

Dany looked uneasily at where the ladder had stood. Even the smoke was gone now, and the crowd was breaking up, each man going about his business. In a moment more than a few would find their purses flat and empty. "And now?"

"And now his powers grow, Khaleesi. And you are the cause of it."

Doing my best Summer Is Ending impersonation. :cool4:

[Khal GoGo]

I suspect Mance might have done something, if I recall correctly Ygritte say that they didn't know what the wildlings might have awake when they were looking for the Horn of Joramun.

And yes, I believe the White Walkers are magical beings.

Ah yes, I remember that. Something about releasing shades into the world. But I thought the whole reason Mance wanted to go south was to escape the Others? Some circular logic there, unless Mance had just decided it was time to launch another Wildling raid on the wall and then realised the stakes had risen when the WW turned up.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

When Quaithe meets Dany she claims that Dany is responsible for the enhancement of their magical powers, not her dragons.

"A fine trick," announced Jhogo with admiration.

"No trick," a woman said in the Common Tongue.

Dany had not noticed Quaithe in the crowd, yet there she stood, eyes wet and shiny behind the implacable red lacquer mask. "What mean you, my lady?"

"Half a year gone, that man could scarcely wake fire from dragonglass. He had some small skill with powders and wildfire, sufficient to entrance a crowd while his cutpurses did their work. He could walk across hot coals and make burning roses bloom in the air, but he could no more aspire to climb the fiery ladder than a common fisherman could hope to catch a kraken in his nets."

Dany looked uneasily at where the ladder had stood. Even the smoke was gone now, and the crowd was breaking up, each man going about his business. In a moment more than a few would find their purses flat and empty. "And now?"

"And now his powers grow, Khaleesi. And you are the cause of it."

Doing my best Summer Is Ending impersonation. :cool4:

I think she's saying that Dany is the cause of it because she's the one who (at face value, anyway) hatched the dragons. Not that Dany personally, discretely, is the cause of anything.

[-Ghost-]

The dragons have something to do with it, not sure how much, but its said throughout the books. The candle at the citadel is only lit when dragons are around too, right?

[OberynBlackfyre]

When Quaithe meets Dany she claims that Dany is responsible for the enhancement of their magical powers, not her dragons.

"A fine trick," announced Jhogo with admiration.

"No trick," a woman said in the Common Tongue.

Dany had not noticed Quaithe in the crowd, yet there she stood, eyes wet and shiny behind the implacable red lacquer mask. "What mean you, my lady?"

"Half a year gone, that man could scarcely wake fire from dragonglass. He had some small skill with powders and wildfire, sufficient to entrance a crowd while his cutpurses did their work. He could walk across hot coals and make burning roses bloom in the air, but he could no more aspire to climb the fiery ladder than a common fisherman could hope to catch a kraken in his nets."

Dany looked uneasily at where the ladder had stood. Even the smoke was gone now, and the crowd was breaking up, each man going about his business. In a moment more than a few would find their purses flat and empty. "And now?"

"And now his powers grow, Khaleesi. And you are the cause of it."

Doing my best Summer Is Ending impersonation. :cool4:

Agreed with this ^^^^

and I also agree with Apple Martini to certain points, because things are partially cyclical, as in there are prophecies that have to be fulfilled. I mean if you want to hear a true honest answer to why the magic was restored, i'd say it was due to the comet more than anything else

[Lion of Judah]

I think she's saying that Dany is the cause of it because she's the one who (at face value, anyway) hatched the dragons. Not that Dany personally, discretely, is the cause of anything.

Didn't think of it that way, but it definitely makes sense.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Didn't think of it that way, but it definitely makes sense.

Frankly I don't see anything magical about Dany, specifically as a person, at all.

[Drogo_BR]

When Quaithe meets Dany she claims that Dany is responsible for the enhancement of their magical powers, not her dragons.

"A fine trick," announced Jhogo with admiration.

"No trick," a woman said in the Common Tongue.

Dany had not noticed Quaithe in the crowd, yet there she stood, eyes wet and shiny behind the implacable red lacquer mask. "What mean you, my lady?"

"Half a year gone, that man could scarcely wake fire from dragonglass. He had some small skill with powders and wildfire, sufficient to entrance a crowd while his cutpurses did their work. He could walk across hot coals and make burning roses bloom in the air, but he could no more aspire to climb the fiery ladder than a common fisherman could hope to catch a kraken in his nets."

Dany looked uneasily at where the ladder had stood. Even the smoke was gone now, and the crowd was breaking up, each man going about his business. In a moment more than a few would find their purses flat and empty. "And now?"

"And now his powers grow, Khaleesi. And you are the cause of it."

Doing my best Summer Is Ending impersonation. :cool4:

Yeah, I still believe something happened and we don't know about it.

I mean look at the cidatel, they killed the dragons and (i believe in samwell POV's) Marwin says that the dragons did not fit the world imagined by the cidatel. If they killed the dragons, why not the magic?

I mean, there is solid evidence pointing to Danny and her dragons, but I still think its a consequence, not the cause.

[Lion of Judah]

Frankly I don't see anything magical about Dany, specifically as a person, at all.

See I think the opposite on this, simply because she hatched the dragons and several other Targaryens had failed to do it before her. It could be that only a life could pay for a life concept, but it could also be my bias because I love Dany.

[Lion of Judah]

Yeah, I still believe something happened and we don't know about it.

I mean look at the cidatel, they killed the dragons and (i believe in samwell POV's) Marwin says that the dragons did not fit the world imagined by the cidatel. If they killed the dragons, why not the magic?

I mean, there is solid evidence pointing to Danny and her dragons, but I still think its a consequence, not the cause.

I think Marwyn is up to something because before he leaves he tells Samwell not to say anything about Danys dragons and he leaves to make his way to Daenerys. I think Marwyn's opinion on the issue of dragons differs from the Citadel and he wants to help keep them alive.

[Lord Martin]

I also think its cyclical. I personally think has to do with the eternal struggle between the Lord of Light and the Great Other (or some such divinities).

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

See I think the opposite on this, simply because she hatched the dragons and several other Targaryens had failed to do it before her. It could be that only a life could pay for a life concept, but it could also be my bias because I love Dany.

The only magical person I see associated with the dragons hatching is Mirri. You say that Dany must be magical because other Targs had failed — it doesn't occur to you that maybe being a Targaryen has nothing to do with it? ;)