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Is Dany actually the ANTAGONIST?


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#1 Ribupr

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:36 AM

The topic pretty much speaks for itself, but I was wondering what others thought of this theory/thought

For myself, I always believed Jon (after I pieced together R+L=J) and Dany would eventually come together and save the realm from the Others, but after a re-read, I find myself thinking FUCK NO.

Reasons...

1.) GRRM would soooo pull this shit. Making Dany into the antagonist when (for many) people believed she would be the "savior." Also, I do think Jon is destined to be the protagonist, and when he said there would be another Dance of the Dragons, it kind of confirmed it...ish. Just it might not be Dany vs Faegon, but MAYBE Jon vs Dany.

2.) Dany has gotten more morally dark as the series went on. Burning MMD I get, but not necessarily agree with. But she goes against her word in Astapor. Leaves cities sacked and does relatively nothing to help get them back on their feet. She wanted those cities a certain way and she conquered it (which is cool and her right by conquest)...but don't get butt-hurt the Starks/Baratheons did the same, not to mention they had much better reasons for doing so. And at least the Starks/Baratheons ensured a stable kingdom for awhile after they conquered it.

3.) She doesn't listen to anyone about anything, unless it is something she wants to hear. She is impulsive and is becoming a little sadist with the torture shit in ADWD (and YES...it IS torture).

4.) As the story progresses, you can see her father in her more and more. I can't give examples right now, but there were more than a few passage on the re-read where I thought that.

5.) Someone pointed out in another thread that you never see Dany's actions outside of her own head. I bet from another POV, a lot of the things she has done would give a better idea of who she actually is. The Quentyn chapter in ADWD is one instance I can recall off-hand.

This dude has come half-way around the world with offerings of help/friendship/courtship, and she treats him like shit. Really??? Come on. Though he did turn out to be a gigantic dumb ass lol

These are some of the things I noticed that tell me she heading down Antag Road.

Agree? Disagree? Proofs?

Edited by Ribupr, 19 December 2012 - 09:39 AM.


#2 ab aeterno

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:46 AM

I think that it is a possibility that Dany could become an antagonist to some characters, perhaps even to most. It is possible she will be perceived as a foreign conqueror with dragons that cause fear and destruction, and it is also possible that he experiences in SB make her more pragmatic and ruthless, i.e. the belief that she needs to rule with Fire and Blood because being merciful has failed. That is not to say she would not longer be protective of "her people," but that she might decide that the ends justify the means.

#3 Apple Martini

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:48 AM

You're going to get flamed by Danystans, but I think your basis is sound. If we strip away the "teenage girl" exterior and acknowledge that you're going to come off as better in your own POV and look at actions, I don't think it's out of bounds to question whether Dany is as benevolent as she thinks she is. The worst people can be the ones who do evil while thinking they're doing good.

#4 Ribupr

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:48 AM

I think that it is a possibility that Dany could become an antagonist to some characters, perhaps even to most. It is possible she will be perceived as a foreign conqueror with dragons that cause fear and destruction, and it is also possible that he experiences in SB make her more pragmatic and ruthless, i.e. the belief that she needs to rule with Fire and Blood because being merciful has failed. That is not to say she would not longer be protective of "her people," but that she might decide that the ends justify the means.


Yeah I don't think she is going to the Others or anything, but I do see her being the next worst thing.

#5 The Unholy Reaver

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:49 AM

In this series, It is readers who decide which character is face or which one is heel, because GRRM doesn't force this on readers. so, you decide yourself, who is you going to cheer for and who is you going to boo, and pray that he/she comes out on top.

Edited by The_Reaver, 19 December 2012 - 09:50 AM.


#6 Ribupr

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:50 AM

You're going to get flamed by Danystans, but I think your basis is sound. If we strip away the "teenage girl" exterior and acknowledge that you're going to come off as better in your own POV and look at actions, I don't think it's out of bounds to question whether Dany is as benevolent as she thinks she is. The worst people can be the ones who do evil while thinking they're doing good.


That is what I mean. Not saying she is gonna start killing babies or anything. But I do see her as being on the wrong side before or after the others are taken care of.

#7 ab aeterno

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:52 AM

That is what I mean. Not saying she is gonna start killing babies or anything. But I do see her as being on the wrong side before or after the others are taken care of.


I think, respectfully, that that is what AM is talking about. If Dany believes that she is in the right and on a moral crusade, and then decides that her intentions justify whatever she does, that would be problematic. She might then decide that only she is moral and none of the other major players are, and so they must all be eliminated, for example.

Edited by ab aeterno, 19 December 2012 - 09:53 AM.


#8 Winter's Knight

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:54 AM

Not an antagonist per se but she is getting a little more ambiguous. In some ways she reminds me of Ringil from Richard Morgan's A Land Fit for Heroes.

Your arguments however are ridiculously weak. Taking point number four, I put it to you that you cannot find any examples because there are none.Whatever decisions Dany makes, she does so while of sound mind-it id why she is such a polarising figure.

As to your stating that she doesn't take advice: on the contrary, she takes too much advice. In Dance, she seems to have very little confidence, heeding instead the Green Grace, Rezznak mo Rezznak and so on. In ASoS, she goes to Astapor on Jorah's advice as well.

Re Quentyn: he arrived sans ships, sans army sans anything on the eve of her marriage and demanded that she honour an agreement that did not mention her at all. She welcomed him, treated him as an honoured guest and promised him that her marriage need not end his hopes and reminded him that the dragon has three heads. She did everything she could short of marrying him so could we please stop saying that she dumped poor Quent for Daario?

#9 Ribupr

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:54 AM

I think, respectfully, that that is what AM is talking about. If she believes that she is in the right and on a moral crusade, and then decides that her intentions justify whatever she does, that would be problematic.


If something happens to her "children" though. I could see her going off the deep end and go into "Fuck it" mode

#10 ServantOnIce

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:55 AM

I disagree. While the Dany haters seethe they know she is the hero and she will defeate the White Walkers and bring on the eternal spring.

#11 ab aeterno

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:56 AM

<snip>


I was wondering when you'd get here WK!

#12 blackwing

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:57 AM

Dany's yet way too soft to be of antagonist material. Maybe what happens next to her will change that, but so far all of her actions were kind of justifyable. And remember her chaining the dragons after that child died? Don't think her father would have even remotely sparked such a thought in that situation. Also there's the thing of the dragonhorn of the ironborn. Bad things might be done with those dragons, but it doesn't look like it will be Dany's doing atm.

#13 Ribupr

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:59 AM

Not an antagonist per se but she is getting a little more ambiguous. In some ways she reminds me of Ringil from Richard Morgan's A Land Fit for Heroes.

Your arguments however are ridiculously weak. Taking point number four, I put it to you that you cannot find any examples because there are none.Whatever decisions Dany makes, she does so while of sound mind-it id why she is such a polarising figure.

As to your stating that she doesn't take advice: on the contrary, she takes too much advice. In Dance, she seems to have very little confidence, heeding instead the Green Grace, Rezznak mo Rezznak and so on. In ASoS, she goes to Astapor on Jorah's advice as well.

Re Quentyn: he arrived sans ships, sans army sans anything on the eve of her marriage and demanded that she honour an agreement that did not mention her at all. She welcomed him, treated him as an honoured guest and promised him that her marriage need not end his hopes and reminded him that the dragon has three heads. She did everything she could short of marrying him so could we please stop saying that she dumped poor Quent for Daario?


Dammit, now I HAVE to go find them. I was hoping you guys could do that.

Dont Marry Hizdahr, Dany...Leave Meereen, Dany...The Green Grace/Harpy, Dany...The Harpy will continue to kill, Dany....Leave, Dany. SHE DOESNT LISTEN TO SHIT haha

After she laughed at him and ignored him five minutes into the meeting

Edited by Ribupr, 19 December 2012 - 10:00 AM.


#14 Winter's Knight

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:59 AM

You're going to get flamed by Danystans,


Such bullshit Apple. I am tired of your needlessly antagonising people who don't agree with you.

#15 Ribupr

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 10:02 AM

Such bullshit Apple. I am tired of your needlessly antagonising people who don't agree with you.


Haha my douch alert just went off. And not from Apple.

What you don't get is that I somewhat like Dany. But try reading her chapters without her thoughts and objectively. You will see.

Edited by Ribupr, 19 December 2012 - 10:04 AM.


#16 blackwing

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 10:05 AM

In this series, It is readers who decide which character is face or which one is heel, because GRRM doesn't force this on readers. so, you decide yourself, who is you going to cheer for and who is you going to boo, and pray that he/she comes out on top.


I don't know about this... Ramsay, Cercei, Joff, Hoat, Lorch, the Mountain, Roose, Walder Frey, Rattleshirt,... Those are pretty easy to place on the dark side. On the other hand there's Frodo, I mean Jon and Sam and all their 'lil friends and Ned Stark. And then there are some ambiguous figures as well. But I think in most cases it is quite obvious were to put the characters.

#17 butterbumps!

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 10:06 AM

I don't think Dany's going to necessarily be a villain. I think it's more accurate to say that she's a protagonist/ antagonist since her interests compete with other characters we are also invested in, and this will likely cause a lot of conflicted feelings about her presence in Westeros.

I do think she's heading toward a dark period; I think she may even temporarily embrace some very troubling ideas about what being a dragon means. But I definitely don't believe she's going to end up as a true villain or irredeemable antagonist. I can think of a few ways that do not involve Jon + Dany saving the world that would fit Dany's persona, journey and character arc a lot better than this where she's her own hero of sorts.

Edited by butterbumps!, 19 December 2012 - 10:07 AM.


#18 blackwing

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 10:08 AM

Haha my douch alert just went off. And not from Apple.

What you don't get is that I somewhat like Dany. But try reading her chapters without her thoughts and objectively. You will see.


You mean like the one were the child's corpse is placed in front of her. Or the ones were she opposes to reopen the pits until she finally submits to her ill-advisers?

I really didn't like the way Dany went in ADwD but I sense a certain bias at work here.

#19 Bastard of Nightsong

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 10:09 AM

You're going to get flamed by Danystans, <snip>


See, to me "Danystans" just sounds like people who 'ship Dany and Stannis. Which...well, to each their own, I guess?

#20 Ribupr

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 10:09 AM

Taking point number four, I put it to you that you cannot find any examples because there are none.


Random outburst and moodswings. Burning people. Torturing people. How are those NOT traits that make you double take