Old Gods, cold gods and Starks: a Heretic re-read

[DrunkSister]

BTW, there was some interesting stuff about sacrificing unwanted children (bastards, dwarves etc) in wells (and the Nightfort well in particular) in the main Heresy thread, although I can't keep up with the discussion there ATM.

I'm not impressed with the evidence. :dunno:

Dunno, maybe. It never occurred to Ned to hand Gared, though... Maybe it's a southron thing? Maybe Robb added it for extra insult?

Ned killes everybody himself, southern lords don't. So, it could be a regional thing.

Historically speaking, there was a class difference between beheading and hanging. Nobles got to die by the sword, until madam guillotine which killed everybody in the same efficient way. So, hanging would be an especially humiliating punishment for a lord.

There are a lot of hangings in the Riverlands at the mo. but those are for Red Wedding and war crimes, specially atrocious behavior and for break of faith. And Podric, poor baby.

Don't think so, I think even Bran is aware that ancient Stark kings were nasty pieces of work... but: it's indeed odd that we don't hear stories about direwolves running with the ancient Kings of Winter. I'd like to think the direwolf statues in the crypts indicate that they used to be wargs, but then there should be some sort of memory of it, if only in Old Nan's stories...

There is something going on with Ned's understanding of history. He is very loyal to the dynasty and to Iron Throne, laws and customs, honor... If you go back to him and Rob in the crypts he describes the old kings like (paraphrased) lords of Winterfell who in the past used to style themselves kings in the North (gasp, shock, horror). Nope, sorry Ned, they really were kings in their own right, and there was nothing wrong about that.

I wonder what else was normal before Aegon's landing and became bad/evil/too forceful/wargish... I do not mean first night or sacrificing, just playing the Game, not being 'honorable', wishing for more land or riches...

So, I would like to amend my statement: having a direwolf bite off fingers is a Stark thing to do, a thing that your bannerman expect of you, yet it really isn't honorable, or lord-ly.

@ nenya: yes, maybe it's the Karstarks being 'big' that makes the difference. We'll see if anything comes up in future descriptions...

I don't trust Bran. He can only know his uncle and father, and kings from the crypt - those kings are all made from stone and have no hair/beard/skin color.

When you read the descriptions of those kings, did any of you have impression that they were carved in their liking at the time of death? I have this impression that they were somehow idealized representations of those kings in the time of their maturity, not of old age and feebleness. Because I don't remember any rheumatics or fat people. Kind of like Egyptian statues and frescoes.

Which, again, would make Bran, who is still a kid, less than an accurate observer.

Alys looks so much like Arya that Jon almost mistakes them, so she at least has the 'Stark' look.

[nanother]

Jon VIII

LC Mormont:

“Are you well, Snow?” Lord Mormont asked, scowling.

“Well,” his raven squawked. “Well.”

“I am, my lord,” Jon lied … loudly, as if that could make it true. “And you?”

Mormont frowned. “A dead man tried to kill me. How well could I be?” He scratched under his chin. His shaggy grey beard had been singed in the fire, and he’d hacked it off. The pale stubble of his new whiskers made him look old, disreputable, and grumpy. “You do not look well. How is your hand?”

Very down to earth and straightforward. He also sent Ser Alliser away. That was a good move in any case, even though his political calculations tend to be totally off and this case is no exception (as we will see). Yet, in other cases he seems to completely fail to use common sense. My hypothesis is that in Mormont's case being a plot device is often more important than being a consistent character - I'll be collecting evidence pro and contra.

Jon's nightmares:

Jon thanked the gods that no one but Ghost saw him writhing on his bed, whimpering from the pain. And when at last he did sleep, he dreamt, and that was even worse. In the dream, the corpse he fought had blue eyes, black hands, and his father’s face, but he dared not tell Mormont that.

Yet in his nightmare he faced it again … and this time the burning corpse wore Lord Eddard’s features. It was his father’s skin that burst and blackened, his father’s eyes that ran liquid down his cheeks like jellied tears. Jon did not understand why that should be or what it might mean, but it frightened him more than he could say.

So, no crypts this time, but dead Starks are still involved...

Wights:

Truly, the gods had heard Jon’s prayer that night; the fire had caught in the dead man’s clothing and consumed him as if his flesh were candle wax and his bones old dry wood.

...

Whatever demonic force moved Othor had been driven out by the flames; the twisted thing they had found in the ashes had been no more than cooked meat and charred bone.

The other wight, the one-handed thing that had once been a ranger named Jafer Flowers, had also been destroyed, cut near to pieces by a dozen swords … but not before it had slain Ser Jaremy Rykker and four other men. Ser Jaremy had finished the job of hacking its head off, yet had died all the same when the headless corpse pulled his own dagger from its sheath and buried it in his bowels. Strength and courage did not avail much against foemen who would not fall because they were already dead; even arms and armor offered small protection.

So he somehow found that dagger and used it. That's remarkably resourceful for a wight – they usually come across as clumsy and stupid. But during this attack, both of them exhibit signs of... erm... intelligence? The two of them went up to near the weirwood grove and were 'staying put' until they were found and carried inside the castle. Once inside, they both 'waited' while everyone went to sleep. Then Othor targeted the Lord Commander himself, while Jafer killed the acting First Ranger (not entirely sure he was targeted as well, technically he might just have happened to be around) – two very high ranking officers. Othor somehow got to the LC tower unnoticed and must have surprised the guard there, because he didn't even draw his sword.

To what extent were they controlled, by whom, and what was the purpose of it all?

Also, I'm guessing the eyes of the slain didn't turn blue...

His friends meant well, but they did not understand. It was not their fault, truly; they had not had to face Othor, they had not seen the pale glow of those dead blue eyes, had not felt the cold of those dead black fingers. Nor did they know of the fighting in the riverlands. How could they hope to comprehend?

Pale glow? Doesn't seem to fit with the burning, shining, sparkling blue from his last chapter...

“Dywen and Hake returned last night,” the Old Bear said. “They found no sign of your uncle, no more than the others did.”

...

“It would seem there were only the two of … of those creatures, whatever they were(1), I will not call them men. And thank the gods for that. Any more and … well, that doesn’t bear thinking of. There will be more, though. I can feel it in these old bones of mine, and Maester Aemon agrees(2). The cold winds are rising. Summer is at an end, and a winter is coming such as this world has never seen.”

Winter is coming(3). The Stark words had never sounded so grim or ominous to Jon as they did now.

1) everyone else calls them wights. Surely Mormont is not unfamiliar with the term?

2) same stuff as in the Tyrion chapter. Also, feel it in the bones.

3) winter or Winter?

“We have white shadows in the woods and unquiet dead stalking our halls, and a boy sits the Iron Throne,” he said in disgust.

The raven laughed shrilly. “Boy, boy, boy, boy.”

Ser Barristan had been the Old Bear’s best hope, Jon remembered; if he had fallen, what chance was there that Mormont’s letter would be heeded?

New reports or does he know something? Last thing we heard was white walkers on the shores near Eastwatch, right? That's not the woods.

Fire! Yes, damn it. We ought to have known(1). We ought to have remembered. The Long Night has come before. Oh, eight thousand years(2) is a good while, to be sure … yet if the Night’s Watch does not remember, who will?”

“Who will,” chimed the talkative raven. “Who will.”

1) Well, some of your men did know *grumbles* And all the wildings. All you'd have to do is listen to them :rolleyes:

EDIT: just re-read my post and see that some bits are missing (has to do with losing the last few changes and forgetting to replace them); this is an obvious one, not sure what else... I don't think there was a lot...

(2) So he seems to be absolutely certain that there were no long nights since that first one; kind of implies no wights (and possibly no WW either) as well - since it was burning them in particular that prompted this outburst.

The sword:

The raven flapped down and landed on the table, strutting toward the sword, head cocked curiously. Jon hesitated. He had no inkling what this meant. “My lord?”

...

“Take it,” echoed his raven, preening. “Take it, take it.”

...

The pommel was a hunk of pale stone weighted with lead to balance the long blade. It had been carved into the likeness of a snarling wolf’s head, with chips of garnet set into the eyes.

...

“This is Valyrian steel, my lord,” he said wonderingly. His father had let him handle Ice often enough; he knew the look, the feel.

“It is,” the Old Bear told him. “It was my father’s sword, and his father’s before him. The Mormonts have carried it for five centuries. I wielded it in my day and passed it on to my son when I took the black.”

He is giving me his son’s sword. Jon could scarcely believe it. The blade was exquisitely balanced. The edges glimmered faintly as they kissed the light. “Your son...”

Mormont's raven inspects the sword.

The Mormonts had a Valyrian sword before the Starks (they had Ice for 400 years according to Cat).

Jon's Stark issues:

When Jon had been Bran’s age, he had dreamed of doing great deeds, as boys always did. The details of his feats changed with every dreaming, but quite often he imagined saving his father’s life. Afterward Lord Eddard would declare that Jon had proved himself a true Stark, and place Ice in his hand. Even then he had known it was only a child’s folly; no bastard could ever hope to wield a father’s sword. Even the memory shamed him. What kind of man stole his own brother’s birthright? I have no right to this, he thought, no more than to Ice. He twitched his burned fingers, feeling a throb of pain deep under the skin. “My lord, you honor me, but...”

Ghost:

Ghost was curled up asleep beside the door, but he lifted his head at the sound of Jon’s boots. The direwolf’s red eyes were darker than garnets and wiser than men. Jon knelt, scratched his ear, and showed him the pommel of the sword. “Look. It’s you.”

Ghost sniffed at his carved stone likeness and tried a lick. Jon smiled. “You’re the one deserves an honor,” he told the wolf … and suddenly he found himself remembering how he’d found him, that day in the late summer snow. They had been riding off with the other pups, but Jon had heard a noise and turned back, and there he was, white fur almost invisible against the drifts. He was all alone, he thought, apart from the others in the litter. He was different, so they drove him out.

That was Ned's suggestion's back then – seems like Jon now agrees...

Ravens/crows:

“I had hoped for some word of my father.”

“Father,” taunted the old raven, bobbing its head as it walked across Mormont’s shoulders. “Father.”

The Lord Commander reached up to pinch its beak shut, but the raven hopped up on his head, fluttered its wings, and flew across the chamber to light above a window. “Grief and noise,” Mormont grumbled. “That’s all they’re good for, ravens. Why I put up with that pestilential bird …

“Lord Mormont’s raven likes fruit and corn.”

“He is a rare bird,” the maester said. “Most ravens will eat grain, but they prefer flesh. It makes them strong, and I fear they relish the taste of blood. In that they are like men … and like men, not all ravens are alike.”

Jon had nothing to say to that. He threw meat, wondering why he’d been summoned. No doubt the old man would tell him, in his own good time. Maester Aemon was not a man to be hurried.

“Doves and pigeons can also be trained to carry messages,” the maester went on, “though the raven is a stronger flyer, larger, bolder, far more clever, better able to defend itself against hawks … yet ravens are black, and they eat the dead, so some godly men abhor them. Baelor the Blessed tried to replace all the ravens with doves, did you know?” The maester turned his white eyes on Jon, smiling. “The Night’s Watch prefers ravens.”

Jon’s fingers were in the bucket, blood up to the wrist. “Dywen says the wildlings call us crows,” he said uncertainly.

“The crow is the raven’s poor cousin. They are both beggars in black, hated and misunderstood.”

Jon wished he understood what they were talking about, and why. What did he care about ravens and doves? If the old man had something to say to him, why couldn’t he just say it?

Very deep stuff :cool4: although not sure about the significance of any of it :unsure:

NW oath:

“Jon, did you ever wonder why the men of the Night’s Watch take no wives and father no children?” Maester Aemon asked.

Jon shrugged. “No.” He scattered more meat. The fingers of his left hand were slimy with blood, and his right throbbed from the weight of the bucket.

“So they will not love,” the old man answered, “for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty.”

That did not sound right to Jon, yet he said nothing. The maester was a hundred years old, and a high officer of the Night’s Watch; it was not his place to contradict him.

...

“The men who formed the Night’s Watch knew that only their courage shielded the realm from the darkness to the north. They knew they must have no divided loyalties to weaken their resolve(1). So they vowed they would have no wives nor children.

“Yet brothers they had, and sisters. Mothers who gave them birth, fathers who gave them names. They came from a hundred quarrelsome kingdoms, and they knew times may change, but men do not. So they pledged as well that the Night’s Watch would take no part in the battles of the realms it guarded(2).

ETA:

1) We see this is kind of true now: all the fighting between kingdoms seems to be a distraction from the 'real' threat which is thought to be non-existent. But in the beginning, when there was an obvious threat, having loved ones would have made them want to protect them.

2) Which part of the oath is that?

“They kept their pledge. When Aegon slew Black Harren and claimed his kingdom, Harren’s brother was Lord Commander on the Wall, with ten thousand swords to hand. He did not march. In the days when the Seven Kingdoms were seven kingdoms, not a generation passed that three or four of them were not at war. The Watch took no part. When the Andals crossed the narrow sea and swept away the kingdoms of the First Men, the sons of the fallen kings held true to their vows and remained at their posts. So it has always been, for years beyond counting. Such is the price of honor.

ETA: we did discuss Watch numbers far back in the thread - this is one important bit of information.

Maester Aemon:

“I … ah … Maester Aemon wants to see you.”

It was not time for his bandages to be changed. Jon frowned suspiciously. “Why?” he demanded. Sam looked miserable. That was answer enough. “You told him, didn’t you?” Jon said angrily. “You told him that you told me.”

“I … he … Jon, I didn’t want to … he asked … I mean … I think he knew, he sees things no one else sees …”

“He’s blind,” Jon pointed out forcefully, disgusted. “I can find the way myself.” He left Sam standing there, openmouthed and quivering.

Maester Aemon turned his head and looked at him with those dead white eyes. It was as if he were seeing right into his heart. Jon felt naked and exposed.

3rd eye? Might be more fitting in the Dany thread.

Oh, Dany. I don't suppose anyone feels like skimming her chapters to see if there's anything Heresy-relevant? I think I'll just try to do the remaining Bran and Jon chapters in AGoT as quickly and possible and then go back to the Dany (and other) ones unless someone else does it.

[Black Crow]

Some good stuff in that one. I was particularly struck by the discussion of ravens and crows. Like you I'd hesitate to put my finger on anything particular but it does support the ideas we've been having on the main heresy thread of how the crows may turn out to be players in their own right.

[DrunkSister]

Oh and when I did a search on iron, ironwood came up as well, such as the crypt's door being made of it. Not sure if there would be a relation with iron and ironwood though.

Bran I

Gared was executed on an ironwood stump. Whatever ironwood may be... :(

I am going to reread Jon's chapter before I post.

[nenya~]

Yeah, this was a good chapter. Thanks for the summary nanother.

On my first read, I never realized how disappointed Jon was in receiving Mormont's sword. Particularly, this struck me:

"He is not my father. The thought leapt unbidden to Jon’s mind. Lord Eddard Stark is my father. I will not forget him, no matter how many swords they give me."

If Jon finds out about R+L=J, I don't think it will matter to him in the end, he'll always see Ned as his father. This won't be the first time Jon emphasizes that Ned is his father.

Whatever demonic force moved Othor had been driven out by the flames; the twisted thing they had found in the ashes had been no more than cooked meat and charred bone.

This reminds me of “Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat,” he said to a man below him. “Let him be the king of ashes.”

Coincidence or foreshadowing? Jon could be a king who defeats an army of wights? eta: Or king OF the wights? I don't like that one. :(

Some of the ravens were still eating, long stringy bits of meat dangling from their beaks. The rest seemed to be watching him. Jon could feel the weight of all those tiny black eyes. “And this is my day … is that what you’re saying?”

So it's not only Mormont's raven that seem interested in Jon?

Oh, Dany. I don't suppose anyone feels like skimming her chapters to see if there's anything Heresy-relevant? I think I'll just try to do the remaining Bran and Jon chapters in AGoT as quickly and possible and then go back to the Dany (and other) ones unless someone else does it.

I read Dany VI and didn't see anything relevant, but I'm not as good at finding parallels as some of you guys. If you want, I can do a short summary to keep the thread moving along and maybe someone else will be able to spot something?

[nanother]

Good catch about the ravens!

Not sure what to make of the parallel wording - if it's foreshadowing, it's too obscure for me at this point, but it's worth keeping in mind.

If it's not too much trouble, I'm sure a chapter summary in the Dany thread could be useful - thanks for the offer!

Oh, I was going to mention Maester Aemon there, will do that now.

[EmmaoftheCanals]

"He is not my father. The thought leapt unbidden to Jon’s mind. Lord Eddard Stark is my father. I will not forget him, no matter how many swords they give me."

If Jon finds out about R+L=J, I don't think it will matter to him in the end, he'll always see Ned as his father. This won't be the first time Jon emphasizes that Ned is his father.

I think learning about R+L=J will affect Jon in a deeply personal way. Though he has indeed never really been part of the Starks (Cat made sure of that) he is/was very attached to Ned and lives his life a bit by the motto of WWND (What Would Ned Do?). It might be very hard on him that Ned is not his biological father, since he feels so much as if Ned is part of him. In the end he might make peace with the fact that Ned is his uncle rather than his father, but I can't imagine him being completely unaffected by it.

However, I don't think it'll make him want to get the Iron Throne, or even worse, marry Dany ;).

[nanother]

I'm mostly done with the next Bran chapter, but seems like everyone is busy so won't post it for a couple of days (it's quite dense). Instead, here is what I found in the skipped chapters before this Jon one.

Catelyn VIII

Moat Cailin:

Just beyond, through the mists, she glimpsed the walls and towers of Moat Cailin . . . or what remained of them. Immense blocks of black basalt, each as large as a crofter’s cottage, lay scattered and tumbled like a child’s wooden blocks, half-sunk in the soft boggy soil. Nothing else remained of a curtain wall that had once stood as high as Winterfell’s. The wooden keep was gone entirely, rotted away a thousand years past, with not so much as a timber to mark where it had stood. All that was left of the great stronghold of the First Men were three towers . . . three where there had once been twenty, if the taletellers could be believed.

The Gatehouse Tower looked sound enough, and even boasted a few feet of standing wall to either side of it. The Drunkard’s Tower, off in the bog where the south and west walls had once met, leaned like a man about to spew a bellyful of wine into the gutter. And the tall, slender Children’s Tower, where legend said the children of the forest had once called upon their nameless gods to send the hammer of the waters, had lost half its crown. It looked as if some great beast had taken a bite out of the crenellations along the tower top, and spit the rubble across the bog. All three towers were green with moss. A tree was growing out between the stones on the north side of the Gatehouse Tower, its gnarled limbs festooned with ropy white blankets of ghostskin.

...

“And when night falls, there are said to be ghosts, cold vengeful spirits of the north who hunger for southron blood.”

-- all knowledge from Moat Cailin seems to come from tales/legends. What happened to it?

-- waht's 'ghostskin'?

-- vengeful spirits of the North?

Grey Wind:

She found her son surrounded by his father’s lords bannermen, in a drafty hall with a peat fire smoking in a black hearth. He was seated at a massive stone table, a pile of maps and papers in front of him, talking intently with Roose Bolton and the Greatjon. At first he did not notice her . . . but his wolf did. The great grey beast was lying near the fire, but when Catelyn entered he lifted his head, and his golden eyes met hers. The lords fell silent one by one, and Robb looked up at the sudden quiet and saw her.

...

The direwolf got to his feet and padded across the room to where she stood. It seemed bigger than a wolf ought to be. “You’ve grown a beard,” she said to Robb, while Grey Wind sniffed her hand.

He rubbed his stubbled jaw, suddenly awkward. “Yes.” His chin hairs were redder than the ones on his head.

“I like it.” Catelyn stroked the wolfs head, gently. “It makes you look like my brother Edmure.” Grey Wind nipped at her fingers, playful, and trotted back to his place by the fire.

And all the bannermen follow his example (well, not nipping at her fingers, but paying their respects in their own ways :P )

Roose Bolton:

“My lady, a question, as it please you.” Roose Bolton, Lord of the Dreadfort, had a small voice, yet when he spoke larger men quieted to listen. His eyes were curiously pale, almost without color, and his look disturbing.

Sansa V

At court, whe she goes to beg for Ned's life and everyone ignores her:

Vainly, she searched for friendly faces. Not one of them would meet her eyes. It was as if she had become a ghost, dead before her time.

Eddard XV

He remembered the jest the king had shared in the crypts of Winterfell, as the Kings of Winter looked on with cold stone eyes. The king eats, Robert had said, and the Hand takes the shit. How he had laughed. Yet he had gotten it wrong. The king dies, Ned Stark thought, and the Hand is buried.

When he thought of his daughters, he would have wept gladly, but the tears would not come. Even now, he was a Stark of Winterfell, and his grief and his rage froze hard inside him.

...

There was no sun and no moon. He could not see to mark the walls. Ned closed his eyes and opened them; it made no difference. He slept and woke and slept again. He did not know which was more painful, the waking or the sleeping. When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises.

Not sure if it's significant, but since we're into dreams:

He saw the king as he had been in the flower of his youth, tall and handsome, his great antlered helm on his head, his warhammer in hand, sitting his horse like a horned god. He heard his laughter in the dark, saw his eyes, blue and clear as mountain lakes.

...

Cracks ran down his face, fissures opening in the flesh, and he reached up and ripped the mask away. It was not Robert at all; it was Littlefinger, grinning, mocking him. When he opened his mouth to speak, his lies turned to pale grey moths and took wing.

He could no longer tell the difference between waking and sleeping. The memory came creeping upon him in the darkness, as vivid as a dream. It was the year of false spring, and he was eighteen again, down from the Eyrie to the tourney at Harrenhal. He could see the deep green of the grass, and smell the pollen on the wind.

...

He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

“Gods save me,” Ned wept. “I am going mad.”

The gods did not deign to answer.

-- winter roses are important in Heresy - keywords: blue, Sidhe, Bael, Tam Lin, plucking roses

-- gods (not) answering becomes an issue for several of the Starks at various points in AGoT

The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him . . .

[nenya~]

I think learning about R+L=J will affect Jon in a deeply personal way. Though he has indeed never really been part of the Starks (Cat made sure of that) he is/was very attached to Ned and lives his life a bit by the motto of WWND (What Would Ned Do?). It might be very hard on him that Ned is not his biological father, since he feels so much as if Ned is part of him. In the end he might make peace with the fact that Ned is his uncle rather than his father, but I can't imagine him being completely unaffected by it.

However, I don't think it'll make him want to get the Iron Throne, or even worse, marry Dany ;).

Ah, I think you're right in Jon not being unaffected. I still think that in the end, Jon will still identify himself as a son of Ned Stark, regardless of who his parents are.

-- all knowledge from Moat Cailin seems to come from tales/legends. What happened to it?

-- waht's 'ghostskin'?

-- vengeful spirits of the North?

No idea what happened to it, but it is interesting that it was supposedly the First Men who built Moat Cailin, yet the Children still used one of the towers to bring down the Hammer. And the spirits are hungry for southron blood...

Sansa - Another quote of a Stark being referred to as a ghost. Nice find.

Ned's Dreams - Not sure what the significance of the lies turning into moths, but I feel like it's important.

-- gods (not) answering becomes an issue for several of the Starks at various points in AGoT

And a nice parallel to what to what we were discussing in the Dany thread.

eta: And in the last Jon chapter, the gods answered him...

Truly, the gods had heard Jon’s prayer that night; the fire had caught in the dead man’s clothing and consumed him as if his flesh were candle wax and his bones old dry wood.

[Black Crow]

We've recently had the intriguing thought on the main heresy thread that the vengeful spirits from the North/cold northern ghosts may be connected with King Sherrit calling down his curse on the Andals from the Nightfort; that King Sherrit was the Nights King and the spirits in question were white walkers.

[Melifeather]

Ned's Dreams - Not sure what the significance of the lies turning into moths, but I feel like it's important.

Moths tend to fly towards the light, and perhaps Ned is a moth, flying towards Littlefinger's lies, but like a moth that flies too close to the flame, he burns. Ned believed Littlefinger about the city watch being on his side and ultimately he was deceived. Ned was a victim of his own blind faith, navigating in the darkness of Kings Landing...a place he was utterly unprepared for.

We've recently had the intriguing thought on the main heresy thread that the vengeful spirits from the North/cold northern ghosts may be connected with King Sherrit calling down his curse on the Andals from the Nightfort; that King Sherrit was the Nights King and the spirits in question were white walkers.

This is an interesting theory. Was there additional evidence to support it? I'm woefully way behind in reading the Heresy thread.

[Black Crow]

This is an interesting theory. Was there additional evidence to support it? I'm woefully way behind in reading the Heresy thread.

It was a matter of tying up what we know about the early history of the Nightfort and why, when the Watch is pledged to take no part in the affairs of Westeros, a King (Sherrit) was at the Nightfort and calling down a curse on the Andals.

The reasoning being that if King Sherrit Stark's "curse" manifested itself as those cold northern ghosts (these days we reckon the white walkers don't have a misty form but rather appear so by hiding behind glamours) then that would fit in with our earlier theory of the Nights King being overthrown by his brother in order to secure peace with the Andals. In other words Sherrit Stark (not Bran) was the Nights King and brought white walkers through the Black Gate to help defend the Neck until his brother and his people turned against him.

[nanother]

No idea what happened to it, but it is interesting that it was supposedly the First Men who built Moat Cailin, yet the Children still used one of the towers to bring down the Hammer. And the spirits are hungry for southron blood...

There were apparently two 'hammers' – one to break the Arm of Dorne and one to break the lands of Westeros into two (mentioned by Theon/Reek in ADwD) – that is, presumably, to break the Neck. We don't know when that was, though, or against whom. I think only this second one is called 'hammer', although it seems sensible to assume that the two were the same sort of magic.

We've recently had the intriguing thought on the main heresy thread that the vengeful spirits from the North/cold northern ghosts may be connected with King Sherrit calling down his curse on the Andals from the Nightfort; that King Sherrit was the Nights King and the spirits in question were white walkers.

That's interesting indeed – the WW could certainly be remembered as “cold ghosts”. We saw that the same terms were used to describe Ghost and the WW so far. But they don't seem the type to be summoned for a job and then go home peacefully when it's done... King of Winter or not, that level of control would seem rather over-powered. Perhaps if the NK struck some extra special deal with the WW... Of course, I'm not really into the 'Night's King was the last King of Winter overthrown with the help of the Andals' theory in the first place :dunno: Also, aren't ghosts (and Northmen, for that matter) associated with cold on their own right? Not sure about Westeros, but IRL I think they often are.

Moths tend to fly towards the light, and perhaps Ned is a moth, flying towards Littlefinger's lies, but like a moth that flies too close to the flame, he burns. Ned believed Littlefinger about the city watch being on his side and ultimately he was deceived. Ned was a victim of his own blind faith, navigating in the darkness of Kings Landing...a place he was utterly unprepared for.

The moths are the lies, though... Well, it'd still make sense for them to fly towards the light (innocence – being an easy prey) but they never seem to burn, not LF's :(

Other than that, moths are relatively inconspicuous, fly at night... well, fly – that's a pretty efficient way of travelling; and certain kinds are really good at getting into places and damaging stuff... kind of a good fit for lies, I guess :dunno:

[nanother]

Bran VII

Knights

“Ser Rodrik should teach me to use a poleaxe. If I had a poleaxe with a big long haft, Hodor could be my legs. We could be a knight together.”

“I think that . . . unlikely,” Maester Luwin said.“Bran, when a man fights, his arms and legs and thoughts must be as one.”

“There was a knight once who couldn’t see,” Bran said stubbornly, as Ser Rodrik went on below.

“Old Nan told me about him. He had a long staff with blades at both ends and he could spin it in his hands and chop two men at once.”

“Symeon Star-Eyes,” Luwin said as he marked numbers in a book. “When he lost his eyes, he put star sapphires in the empty sockets, or so the singers claim. Bran, that is only a story, like the tales of Florian the Fool. A fable from the Age of Heroes.” The maester tsked. “You must put these dreams aside, they will only break your heart.

Clearly, he was one of those 'kinghts before there were knights'. Also, sapphires or ...?

Crow dreams:

The mention of dreams reminded him. “I dreamed about the crow again last night. The one with three eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad.”

“And why was that?” Luwin peered through his tube.

“It was something to do about Jon, I think.” The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so than any of the other crow dreams.

So he has crow dreams every now and then and they're always somewhat disturbing. No surprise, I guess. Now, was this one extra disturbing because of Jon (whatever Ned had to tell about him), or simply because of his father (being dead)?

“In the dream I flew down with the crow, but I can’t do that when I’m awake,” Bran explained.

So can he now fly again in his dreams?

Crypts:

“Hodor won’t go down into the crypts.”

...

He just stood on the top step and said ‘Hodor,’ like he was scared of the dark, but I had a torch.

Summer is also reluctant:

Summer stalked out in the echoing gloom, then stopped, lifted his head, and sniffed the chill dead air. He bared his teeth and crept backward, eyes glowing golden in the light of the maester’s torch.

…

Summer refused to move from the steps, even when Osha followed the torch, Bran in her arms.

So what is it they're both feeling? Summer would surely know Rickon and Shaggy are there, but why would that disturb him? And whatever made him wary didn't bother Shaggy.

Hodor later hides in the crypts with them. Do we know of other instances of him going down the crypts, or not?

Even Osha, hard as old iron, seemed uncomfortable. “Grim folk, by the look of them,” she said as she eyed the long row of granite Starks on their stone thrones.

“They were the Kings of Winter,” Bran whispered. Somehow it felt wrong to talk too loudly in this place (1).

Osha smiled. “Winter’s got no king (2). If you’d seen it, you’d know that, summer boy.”

“They were the Kings in the North (3) for thousands of years,” Maester Luwin said, lifting the torch high so the light shone on the stone faces. Some were hairy and bearded, shaggy men fierce as the wolves that crouched by their feet. Others were shaved clean, their features gaunt and sharp-edged as the iron longswords across their laps. “Hard men for a hard time. Come.”

1) So the stone kings are fine with the Stark kids playing there (as both Arya and now Bran claim they were doing), but talking too loudly might offend them.

2) Is she right, or do even wildlings not remember everything?

3) Kings in the North vs Kings of Winter – what's the difference, if any?

The vault was cavernous, longer than Winterfell itself, and Jon had told him once that there were other levels underneath, vaults even deeper and darker where the older kings were buried. It would not do to lose the light. Summer refused to move from the steps, even when Osha followed the torch, Bran in her arms.

He looked at the passing faces and the tales came back to him. The maester had told him the stories, and Old Nan had made them come alive (1). “That one is Jon Stark. When the sea raiders landed in the east, he drove them out and built the castle at White Harbor (2). His son was Rickard Stark, not my father’s father but another Rickard, he took the Neck away from the Marsh King and married his daughter (3). Theon Stark’s the real thin one with the long hair and the skinny beard. They called him the ‘Hungry Wolf,’ because he was always at war. That’s a Brandon, the tall one with the dreamy face, he was Brandon the Shipwright, because he loved the sea. His tomb is empty. He tried to sail west across the Sunset Sea and was never seen again. His son was Brandon the Burner, because he put the torch to all his father’s ships in grief. There’s Rodrik Stark, who won Bear Island in a wrestling match and gave it to the Mormonts. And that’s Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt. He was the last King in the North and the first Lord of Winterfell, after he yielded to Aegon the Conqueror. Oh, there, he’s Cregan Stark. He fought with Prince Aemon once, and the Dragonknight said he’d never faced a finer swordsman.”

1) So some of Old Nan's stories come from Luwin. I'm guessing others could come from singers that occasionally visit, and some of them she must have brought with her from home... she certainly has an eclectic repertoire...

2) This is mentioned in AdwD when Davos recalls the history of Wolf's Den. It's hard to make out the timeline from that, but it sounds like this would have been 2-3 thousand years ago at least... not clear whether he was the first statue on this level, sounds like they were already some of the way down at this point...

3) If crannogmen have CotF blood in them and Starks have crannogman blood in them... mind you, this was very long ago and it's a big 'if' to begin with...

They were almost at the end now, and Bran felt a sadness creeping over him. “And there’s my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys. His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my father’s brother. They’re not supposed to have statues, that’s only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done.”

Maester Luwin stepped toward the open sepulchre, torch in hand. “As you see, he’s not here. Nor will he be, for many a year. Dreams are only dreams, child.” He thrust his arm into the blackness inside the tomb, as into the mouth of some great beast. “Do you see? It’s quite empty”

The darkness sprang at him, snarling.

He keeps repeating that.

Bran saw eyes like green fire, a flash of teeth, fur as black as the pit around them. Maester Luwin yelled and threw up his hands. The torch went flying from his fingers, caromed off the stone face of Brandon Stark, and tumbled to the statue’s feet, the flames licking up his legs. In the drunken shifting torchlight, they saw Luwin struggling with the direwolf, beating at his muzzle with one hand while the jaws closed on the other.

“Summer!” Bran screamed.

And Summer came, shooting from the dimness behind them, a leaping shadow. He slammed into Shaggydog and knocked him back, and the two direwolves rolled over and over in a tangle of grey and black fur, snapping and biting at each other, while Maester Luwin struggled to his knees, his arm torn and bloody. Osha propped Bran up against Lord Rickard’s stone wolf as she hurried to assist the maester. In the light of the guttering torch, shadow wolves twenty feet tall fought on the wall and roof (1).

“Shaggy,” a small voice called. When Bran looked up, his little brother was standing in the mouth of Father’s tomb. With one final snap at Summer’s face, Shaggydog broke off and bounded to Rickon’s side. “You let my father be,” Rickon warned Luwin. “You let him be.”

“Rickon,” Bran said softly. “Father’s not here.”

“Yes he is. I saw him.” Tears glistened on Rickon’s face. “I saw him last night.”

“In your dream ... ?’ (2)

Rickon nodded. “You leave him. You leave him be. He’s coming home now, like he promised.

He’s coming home.” (3)

Bran had never seen Maester Luwin took so uncertain before. Blood dripped down his arm where Shaggydog had shredded the wool of his sleeve and the flesh beneath. “Osha, the torch,” he said, biting through his pain, and she snatched it up before it went out. Soot stains blackened both legs of his uncle’s likeness. “That . . . that beast,” Luwin went on, “is supposed to be chained up in the kennels.”

Rickon patted Shaggydog’s muzzle, damp with blood. “I let him loose. He doesn’t like chains.” He licked at his fingers. (4)

“Rickon,” Bran said, “would you like to come with me?”

“No. I like it here.” (5)

“It’s dark here. And cold.”

“I’m not afraid. I have to wait for Father.”

1) Another instance of giant shadows...

2) Was Rickon's also a crow dream, then?

3) On the one hand he claims Ned's there, on the other hand he insists in waiting for him because he's coming home. So I guess the way to resolve the contradiction is to assume that part of him is there and part of him isn't...

4) Maester Luwin's blood feeds more than just the heart tree...

5) This is the second time Rickon ventures (seeks comfort?) in the crypts. In the pitch dark too.

Children of the forest:

“...dreams are only dreams.”

“Some are, some aren’t.” Osha poured pale red firemilk into a long gash. Luwin gasped. “The children of the forest could tell you a thing or two about dreaming.”

...

“Old Nan says the children knew the songs of the trees, that they could fly like birds and swim like fish and talk to the animals,” Bran said. “She says that they made music so beautiful that it made you cry like a little baby just to hear it.”

...

“Take a lesson, Bran. The man who trusts in spells is dueling with a glass sword. As the children did. Here, let me show you something.” He stood abruptly, crossed the room, and returned with a green jar in his good hand. “Have a look at these,” he said as he pulled the stopper and shook out a handful of shiny black arrowheads. Bran picked one up. “It’s made of glass.” Curious, Rickon drifted closer to peer over the table.

“Dragonglass,” Osha named it as she sat down beside Luwin, bandaging in hand.

“Obsidian,” Maester Luwin insisted, holding out his wounded arm. “Forged in the fires of the gods, far below the earth. The children of the forest hunted with that, thousands of years ago. The children worked no metal. In place of mail, they wore long shirts of woven leaves and bound their legs in bark, so they seemed to melt into the wood. In place of swords, they carried blades of obsidian.”

“And still do.” Osha placed soft pads over the bites on the maester’s forearm and bound them tight with long strips of linen.

Bran held the arrowhead up close. The black glass was slick and shiny. He thought it beautiful.

Magic keeps being likened to swords - either a glass one, or one without a hilt... Also, Bran and Rickon kept some of the arrowheads – I wonder if they still have them?

“Tell me about the children,” Bran said. It was important.

“What do you wish to know?”

“Everything.”

Maester Luwin tugged at his chain collar where it chafed against his neck. “They were people of the Dawn Age, the very first, before kings and kingdoms,” he said. “In those days, there were no castles or holdfasts, no cities, not so much as a market town to be found between here and the sea of Dorne. There were no men at all. Only the children of the forest dwelt in the lands we now call the Seven Kingdoms.”

“They were a people dark and beautiful , small of stature, no taller than children even when grown to manhood. They lived in the depths of the wood, in caves and crannogs and secret tree towns. Slight as they were, the children were quick and graceful. Male and female hunted together, with weirwood bows and flying snares. Their gods were the gods of the forest, stream, and stone, the old gods whose names are secret (1). Their wise men were called greenseers, and carved strange faces in the weirwoods to keep watch on the woods. How long the children reigned here or where they came from, no man can know.

“But some twelve thousand years ago, the First Men appeared from the east, crossing the Broken Arm of Dorne before it was broken. They came with bronze swords and great leathern shields, riding horses. No horse had ever been seen on this side of the narrow sea. No doubt the children were as frightened by the horses as the First Men were by the faces in the trees. As the First Men carved out holdfasts and farms, they cut down the faces and gave them to the fire. Horrorstruck, the children went to war. The old songs say that the greenseers used dark magics (2) to make the seas rise and sweep away the land, shattering the Arm, but it was too late to close the door. The wars went on until the earth ran red with blood of men and children both, but more children than men, for men were bigger and stronger, and wood and stone and obsidian make a poor match for bronze. Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye.

“There they forged the Pact. The First Men were given the coastlands, the high plains and bright meadows, the mountains and bogs, but the deep woods were to remain forever the children’s, and no more weirwoods were to be put to the axe anywhere in the realm. So the gods might bear witness to the signing, every tree on the island was given a face, and afterward, the sacred order of green men was formed to keep watch over the Isle of Faces (3).

“The Pact began four thousand years of friendship between men and children. In time, the First Men even put aside the gods they had brought with them, and took up the worship of the secret gods of the wood (4). The signing of the Pact ended the Dawn Age, and began the Age of Heroes.”

Bran’s fist curled around the shiny black arrowhead. “But the children of the forest are all gone now, you said.”

“Here, they are,” said Osha, as she bit off the end of the last bandage with her teeth. “North of the Wall, things are different. That’s where the children went, and the giants, and the other old races.”

Maester Luwin sighed. “Woman, by rights you ought to be dead or in chains. The Starks have treated you more gently than you deserve. It is unkind to repay them for their kindness by filling the boys’ heads with folly.”

“Tell me where they went,” Bran said. “I want to know.”

“Me too,” Rickon echoed.

“Oh, very well,” Luwin muttered. “So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured, all through the Age of Heroes and the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, yet finally there came a time, many centuries later, when other peoples crossed the narrow sea.

“The Andals were the first, a race of tall, fair-haired warriors who came with steel and fire and the seven-pointed star of the new gods painted on their chests. The wars lasted hundreds of years, but in the end the six southron kingdoms all fell before them. Only here, where the King in the North threw back every army that tried to cross the Neck, did the rule of the First Men endure. The Andals burnt out the weirwood groves, hacked down the faces, slaughtered the children where they found them, and everywhere proclaimed the triumph of the Seven over the old gods. So the children fled north-“

Summer began to howl.

Conveniently, the Long Night is skipped over because Bran wants to know where the children went, then we never get to know that either, because even more conveniently they're interrupted by the news of Ned's death... grrrrrrrrm. So what happened between the children fleeing north and going beyond the Wall?

Also,

1) I didn't notice the wording before... when I saw 'nameless' gods, I took it to mean that their names are non-existent, not important, or forgotten, given that there are supposedly many of them. But secret? I bet they're all called Rumpelstiltskin...

2) Is there such a thing as 'dark magic', or did men call it dark because it was used against them? I mean, destroying part of a continent is arguably not a nice thing to do but we don't really know anything about the magic that caused it...

3) This is the one weirwood grove that survived the Andal invasion. How?

4) There's some speculation in Heresies regarding these gods, that I don't fully understand (can't quite keep up with the threads lately). In any case, so far we encountered the remnants of an apparent moon worship in the Vale and the little tale about Lann the clever stealing gold from the Sun - so those two are potential candidates for members of the FM pantheon. Later, the various storm and wind gods will also be suspect. As to the course of this 'friendship', it was noted earlier in the thread that at the time of the Long Night (supposedly about halfway into this 4000 years), it didn't seem to be a particularly close one, as it took the Last Hero years to find the children. Therefore it was speculated that the FM taking up the children's gods didn't happen (or wasn't widespread) till then. Although Luwin's version here sounds more like it was a gradual process, but I guess his timeline is vague enough to allow for that.

Maester Luwin broke off, startled. When Shaggydog bounded to his feet and added his voice to his brother’s, dread clutched at Bran’s heart. “It’s coming, “ he whispered, with the certainty of despair. He had known it since last night, he realized, since the crow had led him down into the crypts to say farewell. He had known it, but he had not believed. He had wanted Maester Luwin to be right. The crow, he thought, the three-eyed crow . . .

The howling stopped as suddenly as it had begun. Summer padded across the tower floor to Shaggydog, and began to lick at a mat of bloody fur on the back of his brother’s neck. From the window came a flutter of wings.

A raven landed on the grey stone sill, opened its beak, and gave a harsh, raucous rattle of distress.

Rickon began to cry. His arrowheads fell from his hand one by one and clattered on the floor. Bran pulled him close and hugged him.

Maester Luwin stared at the black bird as if it were a scorpion with feathers. He rose, slow as a sleepwalker, and moved to the window. When he whistled, the raven hopped onto his bandaged forearm.

There was dried blood on its wings. “A hawk,” Luwin murmured, “perhaps an owl. Poor thing, a wonder it got through.” He took the letter from its leg.

So, the dreams and all that commotion in the crypts heralded the arrival of … a raven with a piece of paper. Seems like magic is governed by dramatic necessity more than anything. I mean, Eddard's actual death must have been several days before. His earthly remains don't even leave KL for a long time, and his head is probably still on a spike at this point. Why would his spirit show up in WF that particular night? And I can't see any other reason for the raven to have been attacked than increased dramatic effect...

Similarly, Bran recalls that the wolves started howling before Lady's bones crossed the drawbridge. OK, those were at least the actual bones. And before that, they were restless/howling when the news about Jory's death and Ned's injury came. I suppose it could be some kind of short term prescience with the wolves... As for the dreams, the change Jon's crypt dream also happened at a 'convenient' time, just before the news about the king and Ned, and the wight attack.

:dunno:

[nenya~]

So what is it they're both feeling? Summer would surely know Rickon and Shaggy are there, but why would that disturb him? And whatever made him wary didn't bother Shaggy.

Hodor later hides in the crypts with them. Do we know of other instances of him going down the crypts, or not?

Maybe they feel death and are not sure at this point what it is? It's not until they get the letters that the wolves start howling (which I thought was weird like you said as well).

3) Kings in the North vs Kings of Winter – what's the difference, if any?

Maybe one title is older than the other

2) This is mentioned in AdwD when Davos recalls the history of Wolf's Den. It's hard to make out the timeline from that, but it sounds like this would have been 2-3 thousand years ago at least... not clear whether he was the first statue on this level, sounds like they were already some of the way down at this point...

3) If crannogmen have CotF blood in them and Starks have crannogman blood in them... mind you, this was very long ago and it's a big 'if' to begin with...

I think King Jon Stark may be the oldest king mentioned in that level of the crypts (though not necessarily the oldest). The Manderlys were given White Harbor about 1 thousand years ago (Lord Godric of Sweetsister says no more than 900 years ago, Wylla says 1 thousands years before the conquest :dunno: ). Anyway, Greystarks had it for 500, Flints for 100, Lockes almost 200, and other houses were mentioned as well. So I'd say at the least around 2 thousand years ago, like you said. So the Starks have around 2-3 thousands years of kings on that level o.O. That's a lot..anyone wanna estimate how many statues there are?

So King Jon Stark's son was Rickard Stark. Can't remember who mentioned it, but in the moments of foreshadowing (or King in Hiding, can't remember) thread someone said this could foreshadow Jon being the one to raise Rickon later on.

There's also Bowen Marsh...any relation to the Marsh King?

So what happened between the children fleeing north and going beyond the Wall?

One has to wonder...but I still don't like the Stark/Andals overthrowing the NK theory. I do like Black Crow's theory that it was King Sherrit's curse that brought the ghosts, but I don't think the NK need to be involved for the theory to work.

3) This is the one weirwood grove that survived the Andal invasion. How?

This place is even avoided during the current wars going on. We see it mentioned multiple times by people traveling near the Isle of Faces, yet no one even bothers going there?

4) There's some speculation in Heresies regarding these gods, that I don't fully understand (can't quite keep up with the threads lately). In any case, so far we encountered the remnants of an apparent moon worship in the Vale and the little tale about Lann the clever stealing gold from the Sun - so those two are potential candidates for members of the FM pantheon. Later, the various storm and wind gods will also be suspect. As to the course of this 'friendship', it was noted earlier in the thread that at the time of the Long Night (supposedly about halfway into this 4000 years), it didn't seem to be a particularly close one, as it took the Last Hero years to find the children. Therefore it was speculated that the FM taking up the children's gods didn't happen (or wasn't widespread) till then. Although Luwin's version here sounds more like it was a gradual process, but I guess his timeline is vague enough to allow for that.

As mentioned in the Dany thread, there is also the Ryswell/Bracken connection to horses that may be similar to the Dothraki.

So, the dreams and all that commotion in the crypts heralded the arrival of … a raven with a piece of paper. Seems like magic is governed by dramatic necessity more than anything. I mean, Eddard's actual death must have been several days before. His earthly remains don't even leave KL for a long time, and his head is probably still on a spike at this point. Why would his spirit show up in WF that particular night? And I can't see any other reason for the raven to have been attacked than increased dramatic effect...

Similarly, Bran recalls that the wolves started howling before Lady's bones crossed the drawbridge. OK, those were at least the actual bones. And before that, they were restless/howling when the news about Jory's death and Ned's injury came. I suppose it could be some kind of short term prescience with the wolves... As for the dreams, the change Jon's crypt dream also happened at a 'convenient' time, just before the news about the king and Ned, and the wight attack.

:dunno:

I'd say they may be more in tune with other animals like ravens, which is why they howl when the news comes... but you'd think they would know the moment Lady died. When various Starks are in their wolf dreams or warging, they can always feel the other wolves (except the the Wall separates them I guess), so I'm not sure why they didn't start howling until later. :dunno:

Some other stuff I'd like to add

The Comet

The maester was peering through his big Myrish lens tube, measuring shadows and noting the position of the comet that hung low in the morning sky.

This is the first mention of the comet

Stark Descriptions

Crypt Statues

Some were hairy and bearded, shaggy men fierce as the wolves that crouched by their feet. Others were shaved clean, their features gaunt and sharp-edged as the iron longswords across their laps. “Hard men for a hard time. Come.”

The gaunt kings pretty much describe Benjen… His uncle was sharp-featured and gaunt as a mountain crag…

Still don't know how big the shaggy ones are though.

Here's a description of the Others from the prologue:

Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones

Direwolves from an earlier Bran chapter:

There was something gaunt and terrible about them as they stood there amid the gently falling snow. Fresh blood spotted Grey Wind’s muzzle.

[Black Crow]

3) Kings in the North vs Kings of Winter – what's the difference, if any?

It sounds like something Luwin doesn't know or doesn't appreciate. Bran, who is of course a Stark, refers to his forebears as Kings of Winter. Measter Luwin, who so far as we know isn't from round these here parts, knows them only as Kings in the North. Basically the impression I get is that as an outsider Luwin doesn't appreciate the subtle difference.

[Melifeather]

Regarding "Kings of Winter" versus "King in the North", I think we should consider the possible meaning of "Nights King" as well.

If "The Long Night" is to be interpreted as being an extended winter, then "Nights King" is also a winter king, or "Kings of Winter". "Kings of Winter" can be a term to describe a lineage of "Nights Kings". Either the Kings of Winter is interchangeable with Nights King, or the Kings of Winter defeated winter. I could see it going either way. The King in the North sounds like a latter title to me; something that developed after the Andal invasion. If you're the king of all of Westeros, you wouldn't call yourself "King in the North", because the title itself already implies that there is another king or kings.

[DrunkSister]

Interrupting your regular program to say: sorry for falling of the face of the Earth, first it was the Great Spring Cleaning and Garden Planting, now it's the Exam Season, I am reading what I missed but I probably won't be able to contribute much before the end of June.

/off topic

As for Eddard appearing in the crypts only several days after he died, I have no evidence here but will speculate anyway: in our world it is widely believed that it takes a soul several days to fully get used to not having a body and stop haunting the place of death (some never get over it and become ghosts).

[nanother]

Not sure who else is still around, I haven't been active for a while (tried to follow the Heresy threads, though) RL sucks.

I'll attempt to resurrect this re-read, but I think I'll need some help. Or come up with a more manageable system for discussion. Lately I rarely have the peace of mind necessary for thorough chapter summaries.

Anyway, will try to write up something about the last Jon chapter, and then I'll probably have to do a re-re-read because I completely forgot most of what has been discussed in the thread...

edit:

@ Mirijam

end of June sound fine, I wouldn't expect much progress before that anyway...

Interesting, re: the souls getting used to not having a body - I never heard of that, but sounds like a good explanation to me :)

[nanother]

Jon IX

Wind:

Wind whispered through the stable, a cold dead breath on his face, but Jon paid it no mind.

Old gods:

The southron had it easier. They had their septons to talk to, someone to tell them the gods’ will and help sort out right from wrong. But the Starks worshiped the old gods, the nameless gods, and if the heart trees heard, they did not speak.

The namelessness again. But according to Luwin they're not actually nameless - called them 'secret gods of the wood', and stated that their names are secret. Which I still find odd and slightly sinister.

Deserter:

He remembered Robb as he had last seen him, standing in the yard with snow melting in his auburn hair. Jon would have to come to him in secret, disguised. He tried to imagine the look on Robb’s face when he revealed himself. His brother would shake his head and smile, and he’d say … he’d say …

He could not see the smile. Hard as he tried, he could not see it. He found himself thinking of the deserter his father had beheaded the day they’d found the direwolves. “You said the words,” Lord Eddard had told him. “You took a vow, before your brothers, before the old gods and the new.” Desmond and Fat Tom had dragged the man to the stump. Bran’s eyes had been wide as saucers, and Jon had to remind him to keep his pony in hand. He remembered the look on Father’s face when Theon Greyjoy brought forth Ice, the spray of blood on the snow, the way Theon had kicked the head when it came rolling at his feet.

He recalls Gared's execution and his memory is quite detailed – I'd think the fact that he doesn't ever recall Gared talking about the Others is strong evidence that he there was no such talk.

It did not bear thinking about. Pain throbbed, deep in his fingers, as he clutched the reins. Jon put his heels into his horse and broke into a gallop, racing down the kingsroad, as if to outrun his doubts. Jon was not afraid of death, but he did not want to die like that, trussed and bound and beheaded like a common brigand. If he must perish, let it be with a sword in his hand, fighting his father’s killers. He was no true Stark, had never been one … but he could die like one. Let them say that Eddard Stark had fathered four sons, not three.

Boy, you're being thick-headed! After all this thinking you still don't realise where you belong...

Ghost

Out of the corner of his eye, Jon glimpsed a pale shape moving through the trees. Leaves rustled, and Ghost came bounding out of the shadows, so suddenly that Jon’s mare started and gave a whinny. “There!” Halder shouted.

“I heard it too!”

“Traitor,” Jon told the direwolf as he swung up into the saddle.

...

Ghost moved out from under the trees and Jon glared at him. “Small help you were,” he said. The deep red eyes looked at him knowingly.

Good thing at least his wolf has common sense... or else the Old Gods really want Jon alive and at the Wall...

“I do,” said Lord Commander Mormont. “The cold winds are rising, Snow. Beyond the Wall, the shadows lengthen (1). Cotter Pyke writes of vast herds of elk, streaming south and east toward the sea, and mammoths as well. He says one of his men discovered huge, misshapen footprints not three leagues from Eastwatch (2). Rangers from the Shadow Tower have found whole villages abandoned, and at night Ser Denys says they see fires in the mountains, huge blazes that burn from dusk till dawn (3). Quorin Halfhand took a captive in the depths of the Gorge, and the man swears that Mance Rayder is massing all his people in some new, secret stronghold he’s found, to what end the gods only know. Do you think your uncle Benjen was the only ranger we’ve lost this past year?

1) I used to think that he's just talking about the coming winter here, but he limits the shadows lengthening beyound the Wall - I wonder what he means...

2) I guess that'd be a giant? I can't remember, are the Black Brothers aware that giants still exist? Also, while the NW's (and therefore our) focus is directed towards Craster's and the Frostfangs so far, the fact that both WW and giant tracks were spotted near Eastwach indicates that something might be brewing there as well.

3) Nightfires? These are seen from the Shadow Tower, right? So it's not Mance's host. Moromont does talk about the 'mountain people' fleeing south, so I'm guessing it's them. But that'd imply that they don't answer to the King-beyond-the-Wall. Not sure if that's significant.

“All I know is that the blood of the First Men flows in the veins of the Starks (1). The First Men built the Wall (2), and it’s said they remember things otherwise forgotten. And that beast of yours … he led us to the wights, warned you of the dead man on the steps. Ser Jaremy would doubtless call that happenstance, yet Ser Jaremy is dead and I’m not.” Lord Mormont stabbed a chunk of ham with the point of his dagger. “I think you were meant to be here, and I want you and that wolf of yours with us when we go beyond the Wall.”

His words sent a chill of excitement down Jon’s back. “Beyond the Wall?”

“You heard me. I mean to find Ben Stark, alive or dead.” He chewed and swallowed. “I will not sit here meekly and wait for the snows and the ice winds. We must know what is happening. This time the Night’s Watch will ride in force, against the King-beyond-the-Wall, the Others, and anything else that may be out there (3). I mean to command them myself.” He pointed his dagger at Jon’s chest. “By custom, the Lord Commander’s steward is his squire as well … but I do not care to wake every dawn wondering if you’ve run off again. So I will have an answer from you, Lord Snow, and I will have it now. Are you a brother of the Night’s Watch … or only a bastard boy who wants to play at war?”

Jon Snow straightened himself and took a long deep breath. Forgive me, Father. Robb, Arya, Bran … forgive me, I cannot help you. He has the truth of it. This is my place. “I am … yours, my lord. Your man. I swear it. I will not run again.”

1) But not of the Mormonts, then? I thought most Northern houses had FM blood in them, though perhaps the Starks more than others?

2) According to the most recent 'heretic orthodoxy' the First Men had nothing to do with building the Wall... I don't buy it at the moment (and there's a seemingly contrdicting SSM), but it's worth watching out for clues...

3) This would be more impressive if the Watch 'in force' would constitute more than just a few hundred men. As it is, with both the wildlings and the Others/wights out there, WTH is he thinking? Even with the newly discovered weakness of the wights it seems very reckless...