Old Gods, cold gods and Starks: a Heretic re-read

[nenya~]

There's also the Battle for the Dawn which hints at a long night, but may have been different than the Long Night, since there was mention of the NW. Old Nan's story of the Last Hero doesn't mention the NW.

- why were the children so hard to find?

Rereading it, I'm wondering if the First Men hadn't taken up the Old Gods yet, and perhaps weren't close to the Children despite the Pact. The Children may have been bitter towards them. (Not to mention all those other theories that it was Children who caused the Long Night :blink: )

the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost

Does this suggest that the First Men didn't have any greenseers, skinchangers, green dreams, etc. yet? Bran recalls that the children helped the last hero, but we never found out how. Maybe the Children helped by giving him some of their "ancient magics," and that's when the First Men started to convert. Or were they looking for more powerful magic like the Hammer?

[EmmaoftheCanals]

I think 'generation' means roughly the time needed for the kids to grow up and start a family themselves (I might be mistaken, though). Boys become men at 16, so I don't think any shorter, but people do seem to marry at very young ages, so it's possible that it isn't too much longer either. Maybe ~20 years?

I remember something about a generation being born in the dark and dying in the dark, suggesting something along the lines of 50-70 years. But I don't remember when/where I read it. Maybe it was even from the show.

[Black Crow]

We had some discussion on the main Heresy threads of what a generation means in Westerosi terms. In conventional usage its the period between the birth of a child and the birth of that child's own children. So far as the girls in Martin's world are concerned we noted that seems to be about 13 years which is of course a time period that crops up elsewhere...

As to where the Long Night fits in with the Pact, Feather rightly quotes Maester Luwin, but its interesting that Luwin also says that the First Men adopted the Old Gods "in time" which would be consistent with their doing so after the Long Night had demonstrated the necessity of doing so - and perhaps pointing as well to the necessity of being Godly men (to quote Craster) again in the interesting days ahead.

[Black Crow]

Re: SSM about Old Nan being reliable - this quote from Ran as good as confirms he said no such thing. Or if he did, it must have been something along the lines nenya's post

That would certainly make sense. I didn't imagine the remark, wherever it came from, and we've noted numerous examples such as her description of the Others/Sidhe which are directly contradicted by GRRM himself. At the same time we've had a lot of textual clues as well as other remarks by GRRM that the more formal histories are mince so it wouldn't be unreasonable to take it as confirming not that Old Nan is telling the true version but that the conventional stuff is as reliable as one of her bed-time stories.

[Melifeather]

I was thinking about the Long Night being a name for an extended winter, and whether or not "Nights King" was actually related to "King of Winter". Old Nan's story told of how the Nights King was a man by day, but he ruled by night. What if "day" means "summer" and "night" equals "winter"? Then logically the Nights King ruled during winter, thus he was the King of Winter.

[Black Crow]

I'll go with that. :cool4:

[evita mgfs]

More regarding Bran’s POV: (observations on symbology threading through POV's)

I noticed that Bran sits in his window seat, which is part of the window symbology, someone on the inside looking out at a world he feels he is no longer a part of. This intimates Bran sitting the weirwood throne as a watcher with a 1000 eyes.

The DOOR symbology first appears when it opens with a bang that causes Bran’s heart to leap in his throat in sudden fear (241), and this noise cut shorts Old Nan’s story during an important juncture: the last hero is being hunted by the Others.

The hunting motif, here with the last hero being hunted and earlier with the maids being hunted parallels the threat that Randyl Tarly makes to Samwell about hunting him down, killing him, skinning him, and cutting out his heart if he does not take the black and renounce his claims to an inheritance.

The door symbology occurs again when the hallway door opens, and sunlight streams across the hall before Rickon enters with the direwolves. Martin writes that the direwolves may have caught Tyrion’s scent, and Greyjoy makes a remark about the wolves not liking Tyrion’s smell, so all this indicates that the direwolves can smell “Lannister” and associate it with “BAD” stuff.

Robb’s unsheathed sword across his lap mirrors the Stark lords and the Kings of Winter whose statues are in the crypts with a sword across their laps and a direwolf at their feet. Notice that Robb calls Grey Wind to heel at his feet. This all intimates Rob’s death, and Ned has already assumed this position several times, which I have noted in my rereads.

Bran and Robb talking in the “darkness” IS part of the blindness motif for Bran hears Robb crying, but he cannot see him. The “Others came in DARKNESS”, according to Old Nan, so the meaning of darkness and blindness is tied to the Others. Also, this brother on brother moment will be played over again with Samwell and Jon Snow.

One other thing I noticed, not necessarily in Bran’s POV now, but earlier Robb describes the direwolves’ song and Khaleesi’s dragon sings to her. These reference the series title, A Song of Ice and Fire, as does the “song of swords” mentioned in Jon’s POV III.

[Melifeather]

More regarding Bran’s POV: (observations on symbology threading through POV's)

I noticed that Bran sits in his window seat, which is part of the window symbology, someone on the inside looking out at a world he feels he is no longer a part of. This intimates Bran sitting the weirwood throne as a watcher with a 1000 eyes.

The DOOR symbology first appears when it opens with a bang that causes Bran’s heart to leap in his throat in sudden fear (241), and this noise cut shorts Old Nan’s story during an important juncture: the last hero is being hunted by the Others.

The hunting motif, here with the last hero being hunted and earlier with the maids being hunted parallels the threat that Randyl Tarly makes to Samwell about hunting him down, killing him, skinning him, and cutting out his heart if he does not take the black and renounce his claims to an inheritance.

The door symbology occurs again when the hallway door opens, and sunlight streams across the hall before Rickon enters with the direwolves. Martin writes that the direwolves may have caught Tyrion’s scent, and Greyjoy makes a remark about the wolves not liking Tyrion’s smell, so all this indicates that the direwolves can smell “Lannister” and associate it with “BAD” stuff.

Robb’s unsheathed sword across his lap mirrors the Stark lords and the Kings of Winter whose statues are in the crypts with a sword across their laps and a direwolf at their feet. Notice that Robb calls Grey Wind to heel at his feet. This all intimates Rob’s death, and Ned has already assumed this position several times, which I have noted in my rereads.

Bran and Robb talking in the “darkness” IS part of the blindness motif for Bran hears Robb crying, but he cannot see him. The “Others came in DARKNESS”, according to Old Nan, so the meaning of darkness and blindness is tied to the Others. Also, this brother on brother moment will be played over again with Samwell and Jon Snow.

One other thing I noticed, not necessarily in Bran’s POV now, but earlier Robb describes the direwolves’ song and Khaleesi’s dragon sings to her. These reference the series title, A Song of Ice and Fire, as does the “song of swords” mentioned in Jon’s POV III.

evita - thank you for your insight on this. It seems so obvious now in retrospect, and quite sad. :bawl:

[nanother]

Thanks, evita, both for the insights and for posting at all! I'm having a bit of a bad time IRL and struggling to find the motivation to continue with this re-read, so having something to respond to certainly helps to get back int it...

The door symbology occurs again when the hallway door opens, and sunlight streams across the hall before Rickon enters with the direwolves.

This one in particular makes me feel like I'm missing something obvious. It's such a powerful image, but I can't pin down the meaning... Also, like the other "bursting in" moment, it occurs at a critical point in the narrative, just as Tyrion declares his fondness for 'broken things'.

As for the darkness motif and it's assciation with the Others: there's indeed a cold/death aspect to it through winter, but also protective/nurturing aspect (which I think might be dominant in this scene), and it can also represent a slightly paradoxical form of 'enlightenment' (e.g. learning to rely on other senses/third eye).

Also, there was some discussion about various meanings of 'song', and its apparent healing effect in particular, in the heretic Dany thread.

As for the re-read, one option, which I should have suggested ages ago, is for someone else to do a summary of the next chapter (Little Wing?), or just start discussing it without any summaries. Another is to wait until it moves up on my priority list high enough for me to do so. It's actually quite high up already, but it's also a considerable effort to write these summaries, so it still might take some days before I get around posting. Luckily, I think the upcoming Jon chapter is fairly light Heresy-wise...

[evita mgfs]

Thanks, evita, both for the insights and for posting at all! I'm having a bit of a bad time IRL and struggling to find the motivation to continue with this re-read, so having something to respond to certainly helps to get back int it...

This one in particular makes me feel like I'm missing something obvious. It's such a powerful image, but I can't pin down the meaning... Also, like the other "bursting in" moment, it occurs at a critical point in the narrative, just as Tyrion declares his fondness for 'broken things'.

As for the darkness motif and it's assciation with the Others: there's indeed a cold/death aspect to it through winter, but also protective/nurturing aspect (which I think might be dominant in this scene), and it can also represent a slightly paradoxical form of 'enlightenment' (e.g. learning to rely on other senses/third eye).

Also, there was some discussion about various meanings of 'song', and its apparent healing effect in particular, in the heretic Dany thread.

As for the re-read, one option, which I should have suggested ages ago, is for someone else to do a summary of the next chapter (Little Wing?), or just start discussing it without any summaries. Another is to wait until it moves up on my priority list high enough for me to do so. It's actually quite high up already, but it's also a considerable effort to write these summaries, so it still might take some days before I get around posting. Luckily, I think the upcoming Jon chapter is fairly light Heresy-wise...

:bowdown: :bowdown: NANOTHER: THANK YOU FOR RESPONDING.

I love this iDEA:

"As for the darkness motif and it's assciation with the Others: there's indeed a cold/death aspect to it through winter, but also protective/nurturing aspect (which I think might be dominant in this scene), and it can also represent a slightly paradoxical form of 'enlightenment' (e.g. learning to rely on other senses/third eye)."

river has a thread called Winter Fell, and we have been discusing rMartin's use of weaterh in his POV;s.

I am sure others posting here might be willing to introduce POV's so that the burden "gift" does not fall all upon you. I prefer "supplementing" the heretic theory since I do not know all the ins and outs that you "regulars" do. As a matter-of-fact, that is why I joined this thread: to learn of the inception of the "heretic" theory to see how / and or if, Martin does authenticate it through concrete references from the text..

I do not mean to volunteer anyone, but I am truly complimenting them: :agree: Feather Crystal, Little Wing and Redriver are reliable, scholarly posters who are well-versed in "hereic" theories.

Do not be so hard on yourself. I also appreciate your analytical thought, and your effort definitely shows. Everyone here understands that "life" sometimes takes us away from westeros, and we will be here when he/she comes back.

the next five POV's and ask or volunteers. I copy and paste from Tower of the Hand so readers can skim the summary if they wish. Example

AGOT 26: Eddard V

.

AGOT 27: Jon IV

AGOT 28: Eddard VI

AGOT 30: Sansa II

I hope this helps.

[nenya~]

@evita As usual, your posts are always insightful. Love reading them.

@nanother For the reread, we don't necessarily have to do summaries. The summaries from the TotH seem like a good idea. Another thing could be to just keep note of interesting quotes from our reread and post them here then discuss. I tend to highlight stuff I think may be relevant in my kindle, and put them into onenote. (I'm also terrible at summaries lol).

[nanother]

I am sure others posting here might be willing to introduce POV's so that the burden "gift" does not fall all upon you. I prefer "supplementing" the heretic theory since I do not know all the ins and outs that you "regulars" do. As a matter-of-fact, that is why I joined this thread: to learn of the inception of the "heretic" theory to see how / and or if, Martin does authenticate it through concrete references from the text..

That's actually kind of why I wanted to do this re-read: I'm familiar with the major Heretic theories, but I don't have a solid idea to what extent some of them are supported by the text. I usually just jump to the relevant bit in the books, or do a keyword search at best, so I'm curious to see what a thorugh re-read will turn up. Well, partially thorough, anyway - only skimming through many chapters means there's a risk of missing something important, but it seems small enough.

ToH summaries are fine, but for trying to focus on Heresy-related stuff, I think it's useful to write our own. Or at least a selection of quotes, as nenya suggests. Which, looking at my asoiaf folder, I happen to have for the upcoming chapter, so I might just post that as it is...

[nanother]

From Eddard V

To be sure, King Maekar’s summer was hotter than this one, and near as long. There were fools, even in the Citadel, who took that to mean that the Great Summer had come at last, the summer that never ends, but in the seventh year it broke suddenly, and we had a short autumn and a terrible long winter.

The Great Summer again, this time from Pycelle.

Jon IV

Frustrate him, and he would leave himself open, as certain as sunset.

Life at Castle Black followed certain patterns; the mornings were for swordplay, the afternoons for work. The black brothers set new recruits to many different tasks, to learn where their skills lay. Jon cherished the rare afternoons when he was sent out with Ghost ranging at his side to bring back game for the Lord Commander’s table, but for every day spent hunting, he gave a dozen to Donal Noye in the armory, spinning the whetstone while the one-armed smith sharpened axes grown dull from use, or pumping the bellows as Noye hammered out a new sword. Other times he ran messages, stood at guard, mucked out stables, fletched arrows, assisted Maester Aemon with his birds or Bowen Marsh with his counts and inventories.

That afternoon, the watch commander sent him to the winch cage with four barrels of fresh-crushed stone, to scatter gravel over the icy footpaths atop the Wall. It was lonely and boring work, even with Ghost along for company, but Jon found he did not mind. On a clear day you could see half the world from the top of the Wall, and the air was always cold and bracing.

It was Ghost who knew what to do. Silent as shadow, the pale direwolf moved closer and began to lick the warm tears off Samwell Tarly’s face. The fat boy cried out, startled … and somehow, in a heartbeat, his sobs turned to laughter.

Jon Snow laughed with him. Afterward they sat on the frozen ground, huddled in their cloaks with Ghost between them. Jon told the story of how he and Robb had found the pups newborn in the late summer snows. It seemed a thousand years ago now. Before long he found himself talking of Winterfell.

That's unusual behaviour for Ghost.

“I’m walking down this long empty hall. My voice echoes all around, but no one answers, so I walk faster, opening doors, shouting names. I don’t even know who I’m looking for. Most nights it’s my father, but sometimes it’s Robb instead, or my little sister Arya, or my uncle.” The thought of Benjen Stark saddened him; his uncle was still missing. The Old Bear had sent out rangers in search of him. Ser Jaremy Rykker had led two sweeps, and Quorin Halfhand had gone forth from the Shadow Tower, but they’d found nothing aside from a few blazes in the trees that his uncle had left to mark his way. In the stony highlands to the northwest, the marks stopped abruptly and all trace of Ben Stark vanished.

“Do you ever find anyone in your dream?” Sam asked.

Jon shook his head. “No one. The castle is always empty.” He had never told anyone of the dream, and he did not understand why he was telling Sam now, yet somehow it felt good to talk of it. “Even the ravens are gone from the rookery, and the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone.

Sounds a bit like the post-sack Winterfell (but pre-Bolton)...

And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It’s black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don’t want to. I’m afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it’s not them I’m afraid of. I scream that I’m not a Stark, that this isn’t my place, but it’s no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way.

So:

-- he feels compelled to go down there

-- he feels something is waiting for him

-- it's NOT the KoW that scare him

It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream.” He stopped, frowning, embarrassed. “That’s when I always wake.” His skin cold and clammy, shivering in the darkness of his cell. Ghost would leap up beside him, his warmth as comforting as daybreak. He would go back to sleep with his face pressed into the direwolf’s shaggy white fur.

“One time,” Sam confided, his voice dropping from a whisper, “two men came to the castle, warlocks from Qarth with white skin and blue lips. They slaughtered a bull aurochs and made me bathe in the hot blood, but it didn’t make me brave as they’d promised. I got sick and retched. Father had them scourged.”

Ooh I forgot about this :wideeyed:

“If you do not, then on the morrow we shall have a hunt, and somewhere in these woods your horse will stumble, and you will be thrown from the saddle to die … or so I will tell your mother. She has a woman’s heart and finds it in her to cherish even you, and I have no wish to cause her pain. Please do not imagine that it will truly be that easy, should you think to defy me. Nothing would please me more than to hunt you down like the pig you are.” His arms were red to the elbow as he laid the skinning knife aside. “So. There is your choice. The Night’s Watch”—he reached inside the deer, ripped out its heart, and held it in his fist, red and dripping—“or this.”

Sam told the tale in a calm, dead voice, as if it were something that had happened to someone else, not to him. And strangely, Jon thought, he did not weep, not even once. When he was done, they sat together and listened to the wind for a time. There was no other sound in all the world.

“We’re not friends,” Jon said. He put a hand on Sam’s broad shoulder. “We’re brothers.”

And so they were, he thought to himself after Sam had taken his leave. Robb and Bran and Rickon were his father’s sons, and he loved them still, yet Jon knew that he had never truly been one of them. Catelyn Stark had seen to that. The grey walls of Winterfell might still haunt his dreams, but Castle Black was his life now, and his brothers were Sam and Grenn and Halder and Pyp and the other cast-outs who wore the black of the Night’s Watch.

“My uncle spoke truly,” he whispered to Ghost. He wondered if he would ever see Benjen Stark again, to tell him.

Of course, we know that his epiphany won't last...

[nenya~]

the air was always cold and bracing.

Nice catch, didn't see that when I read. This has me thinking on the discussion from redriver's Winter Fell thread about the Starks thriving in winter. There was a Brandon Stark, Ice Eyes, that came down on the slavers that took over the wolf's den and then hung em by their entrails. He came down on em during winter.

That's unusual behaviour for Ghost.

I thought so too. I guess it's just an intrinsic trust that both Jon and Ghost have for Sam. Jon even opens up to him about his dream that he's never told anyone, and even notes to himself he doesn't know why he's telling him.

Some more stuff on Sam about bravery, cowardice, and heroes.

Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it, the dwarf had told him, grinning. The world was full of cravens who pretended to be heroes; it took a queer sort of courage to admit to cowardice as Samwell Tarly had.

There's that theory about Sam = Last Hero (not sure I buy into it though). Sam the Slayer was pretty heroic when he slayed that Other regardless of how craven he said he was ! There's also Ned's words to Bran.

Bran thought about it. “Can a man still be brave if he’s afraid?”

“That is the only time a man can be brave,” his father told him…

Also, the Night's King:

He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night’s Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. “And that was the fault in him,” she would add, “for all men must know fear.”

The thought of Benjen Stark saddened him; his uncle was still missing. The Old Bear had sent out rangers in search of him. Ser Jaremy Rykker had led two sweeps, and Quorin Halfhand had gone forth from the Shadow Tower, but they’d found nothing aside from a few blazes in the trees that his uncle had left to mark his way. In the stony highlands to the northwest, the marks stopped abruptly and all trace of Ben Stark vanished.

Northwest towards the Fist of First Men?

So:

-- he feels compelled to go down there

-- he feels something is waiting for him

-- it's NOT the KoW that scare him

I want to know what is in the crypts, damnit :devil:

Ghost would leap up beside him, his warmth as comforting as daybreak. He would go back to sleep with his face pressed into the direwolf’s shaggy white fur.

More on Ghost as a source of warmth!

[Melifeather]

Thanks, evita, both for the insights and for posting at all! I'm having a bit of a bad time IRL and struggling to find the motivation to continue with this re-read, so having something to respond to certainly helps to get back int it...

This one in particular makes me feel like I'm missing something obvious. It's such a powerful image, but I can't pin down the meaning... Also, like the other "bursting in" moment, it occurs at a critical point in the narrative, just as Tyrion declares his fondness for 'broken things'.

As for the darkness motif and it's assciation with the Others: there's indeed a cold/death aspect to it through winter, but also protective/nurturing aspect (which I think might be dominant in this scene), and it can also represent a slightly paradoxical form of 'enlightenment' (e.g. learning to rely on other senses/third eye).

Also, there was some discussion about various meanings of 'song', and its apparent healing effect in particular, in the heretic Dany thread.

As for the re-read, one option, which I should have suggested ages ago, is for someone else to do a summary of the next chapter (Little Wing?), or just start discussing it without any summaries. Another is to wait until it moves up on my priority list high enough for me to do so. It's actually quite high up already, but it's also a considerable effort to write these summaries, so it still might take some days before I get around posting. Luckily, I think the upcoming Jon chapter is fairly light Heresy-wise...

I think Rickon bursting in with sunlight streaming in sure seems to foreshadow that Rickon will return at the end of the coming winter like a hero with Shaggydog and perhaps Summer along his side, bringing about an end to the winter and ushering in the Spring sunshine.

We've already determined that since the Long Night was equated with a long winter, then "night" equates "winter", therefore "Night's King" should also mean "King of Winter".

I wish I had the time to provide a summary. It's all I can do to read all the posts from each day. 45 posts to read in just Heresy overnight!

[evita mgfs]

AN: These are some of my notes on Jon’s dream. Since his dream involves the crypts, it seems important in relationship to the Others and their minions, and/or the “heretic” theories: the crypts may hold, hide, or disguise the answers Jon seeks.

JON’S DREAM

Jon’s recurring dream has many, many possible interpretations. I theorize what some parts of his dream “may” be based upon the symbology I have been tracing through the POV’s.

• The doors in Jon’s dream are significant because Jon opens them in his attempt to find someone at Winterfell. The fact that he does not cross the thresholds and finds “no one” may foreshadow the eventual deaths of the Stark family: we know that Robb and Ned both die, and Jon believes that Bran and Rickon are dead.
  
• When Jon opens the door to the crypts and descends with no light, he does so without wanting to see what is down there: he is afraid of what he will see. If Jon is “alive”, then he does not belong with the dead; hence his fear of going down to death, which may explain Jon’s apprehension, aside from the darkness and no light.
  
• The darkness may suggest that Jon is symbolically blind and unable to see the truth because he has no “Light” – or the Knowledge he needs to connect the dots, or figure out what he needs to in order to achieve enlightenment.
  
• When Jon says that he finds “no one”, this may ironically hint that when Jon returns to Winterfell, he will only find “Arya” alive in the castle.
  
• Jon wakes up from the ever increasing darkness of his dream to find himself “cold”, “clammy,” and “shivering”, all words that emphasize his environment. But Ghost provides him with warmth that he compares to “daybreak”, all of which may suggest Ghost as a symbolic link to “life” and “light”, and if we extend the symbolism of light, it is through Ghost that Jon will garner the knowledge he so desperately seeks behind the doors he opens, and through Ghost Jon will receive “life”.
  
• Jon’s dream can also be interpreted as a metaphor that reveals his feelings of abandonment. Jon misses Winterfell, so it is natural that he would dream of his home and of his family, all memories foremost in his daily thoughts that may appear in his nightly dreams.
  

What I think that the dream means:

• The “doors” with no one behind them means certain Starks will not be returning to Winterfell but to be buried in the crypts: Ned, Benjen, and Robb specifically. Since Jon finds “no one”, this intimates that he and Arya may meet again.
  
• Jon’s journey down the spiral staircase into ever increasing darkness intimates that Jon will journey in a realm between life and death. If the crypts symbolize death, Jon wakes up before meeting with that which he fears.
  
• Ghost is warmth, light, knowledge, the weirwoods, the old gods, all of which also encompass Bran, Bloodraven, and the CotF. So through Jon and all the symbolic aspects of Ghost, Jon will live – not die. And Jon will see “daybreak” or the “light”, all suggesting that through Ghost, Jon will receive the knowledge, or learn the truth.
  
• I think that Jon’s dream hints at Jon’s near death experience during which he will warg Ghost who will allow him to live. While in Ghost, Jon will learn some truths, or all truths, which may include his parentage, the nature of the white walkers, the secrets long forgotten at Winterfell, the whereabouts of his surviving family, and more, or less.
  

[Melifeather]

AN: These are some of my notes on Jon’s dream. Since his dream involves the crypts, it seems important in relationship to the Others and their minions, and/or the “heretic” theories: the crypts may hold, hide, or disguise the answers Jon seeks.

JON’S DREAM

Jon’s recurring dream has many, many possible interpretations. I theorize what some parts of his dream “may” be based upon the symbology I have been tracing through the POV’s.

• The doors in Jon’s dream are significant because Jon opens them in his attempt to find someone at Winterfell. The fact that he does not cross the thresholds and finds “no one” may foreshadow the eventual deaths of the Stark family: we know that Robb and Ned both die, and Jon believes that Bran and Rickon are dead.
  
• When Jon opens the door to the crypts and descends with no light, he does so without wanting to see what is down there: he is afraid of what he will see. If Jon is “alive”, then he does not belong with the dead; hence his fear of going down to death, which may explain Jon’s apprehension, aside from the darkness and no light.
  
• The darkness may suggest that Jon is symbolically blind and unable to see the truth because he has no “Light” – or the Knowledge he needs to connect the dots, or figure out what he needs to in order to achieve enlightenment.
  
• When Jon says that he finds “no one”, this may ironically hint that when Jon returns to Winterfell, he will only find “Arya” alive in the castle.
  
• Jon wakes up from the ever increasing darkness of his dream to find himself “cold”, “clammy,” and “shivering”, all words that emphasize his environment. But Ghost provides him with warmth that he compares to “daybreak”, all of which may suggest Ghost as a symbolic link to “life” and “light”, and if we extend the symbolism of light, it is through Ghost that Jon will garner the knowledge he so desperately seeks behind the doors he opens, and through Ghost Jon will receive “life”.
  
• Jon’s dream can also be interpreted as a metaphor that reveals his feelings of abandonment. Jon misses Winterfell, so it is natural that he would dream of his home and of his family, all memories foremost in his daily thoughts that may appear in his nightly dreams.
  

What I think that the dream means:

• The “doors” with no one behind them means certain Starks will not be returning to Winterfell but to be buried in the crypts: Ned, Benjen, and Robb specifically. Since Jon finds “no one”, this intimates that he and Arya may meet again.
  
• Jon’s journey down the spiral staircase into ever increasing darkness intimates that Jon will journey in a realm between life and death. If the crypts symbolize death, Jon wakes up before meeting with that which he fears.
  
• Ghost is warmth, light, knowledge, the weirwoods, the old gods, all of which also encompass Bran, Bloodraven, and the CotF. So through Jon and all the symbolic aspects of Ghost, Jon will live – not die. And Jon will see “daybreak” or the “light”, all suggesting that through Ghost, Jon will receive the knowledge, or learn the truth.
  
• I think that Jon’s dream hints at Jon’s near death experience during which he will warg Ghost who will allow him to live. While in Ghost, Jon will learn some truths, or all truths, which may include his parentage, the nature of the white walkers, the secrets long forgotten at Winterfell, the whereabouts of his surviving family, and more, or less.
  

:bowdown:

I very much like your interpretation, evita. I cannot find anything to disagree with!

[nanother]

I think Rickon bursting in with sunlight streaming in sure seems to foreshadow that Rickon will return at the end of the coming winter like a hero with Shaggydog and perhaps Summer along his side, bringing about an end to the winter and ushering in the Spring sunshine.

I like that interpretation! ATM I can't see clearly how it fits in the context of that scene, but I definitely think you're on to something with that. It would also tie into the theory about Jon going down the 'Night's King' route (which I don't necessarily subscribe to, but it's a possibility), with their wolves having the 'opposite' coloring.

We've already determined that since the Long Night was equated with a long winter, then "night" equates "winter", therefore "Night's King" should also mean "King of Winter".

Hmmm, I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but 'determined' and 'should' are very strong words - as it happens, one of things I found remarkable about that passage that those two are not equated: "Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels." Not sure what the significance of that distinction is, if any, but it's there.

I wish I had the time to provide a summary. It's all I can do to read all the posts from each day. 45 posts to read in just Heresy overnight!

Don't worry about summaries, I appreciate that you still find the time to post here! I hope that at least you have a job you like :worried:

@ evita: great post - I'm only covering the stuff where I have differing opinions:

• When Jon opens the door to the crypts and descends with no light, he does so without wanting to see what is down there: he is afraid of what he will see. If Jon is “alive”, then he does not belong with the dead; hence his fear of going down to death, which may explain Jon’s apprehension, aside from the darkness and no light.
  

This will have to be re-examined when we encounter his later dreams... I seem to recall the dead feasting later on, and not in the crypts... the implications of that are best left to explore when we get there, though...

• The darkness may suggest that Jon is symbolically blind and unable to see the truth because he has no “Light” – or the Knowledge he needs to connect the dots, or figure out what he needs to in order to achieve enlightenment.
  

Seeing how both Bran's and Arya's training involved darkness/blindness, it's also possible that it's not light he needs, but learning to make the most of darkness...

• When Jon says that he finds “no one”, this may ironically hint that when Jon returns to Winterfell, he will only find “Arya” alive in the castle.
  

I'm not ruling it out entirely, but I think it's very unlikely. He explicitly says the castle is empty.

[nanother]

I see there are some older posts I forgot to respond to...

Rereading it, I'm wondering if the First Men hadn't taken up the Old Gods yet, and perhaps weren't close to the Children despite the Pact. The Children may have been bitter towards them. (Not to mention all those other theories that it was Children who caused the Long Night :blink: )

the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost

Does this suggest that the First Men didn't have any greenseers, skinchangers, green dreams, etc. yet? Bran recalls that the children helped the last hero, but we never found out how. Maybe the Children helped by giving him some of their "ancient magics," and that's when the First Men started to convert. Or were they looking for more powerful magic like the Hammer?

This would make sense. I'll have to watch out for more clues pro or contra...

I remember something about a generation being born in the dark and dying in the dark, suggesting something along the lines of 50-70 years. But I don't remember when/where I read it. Maybe it was even from the show.

It's in the books: "Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods."

But then Old Nan might be overly dramatic here :unsure:

[Addam of Hull]

AN: These are some of my notes on Jon’s dream. Since his dream involves the crypts, it seems important in relationship to the Others and their minions, and/or the “heretic” theories: the crypts may hold, hide, or disguise the answers Jon seeks.

JON’S DREAM

Jon’s recurring dream has many, many possible interpretations. I theorize what some parts of his dream “may” be based upon the symbology I have been tracing through the POV’s.

• The doors in Jon’s dream are significant because Jon opens them in his attempt to find someone at Winterfell. The fact that he does not cross the thresholds and finds “no one” may foreshadow the eventual deaths of the Stark family: we know that Robb and Ned both die, and Jon believes that Bran and Rickon are dead.
  
• When Jon opens the door to the crypts and descends with no light, he does so without wanting to see what is down there: he is afraid of what he will see. If Jon is “alive”, then he does not belong with the dead; hence his fear of going down to death, which may explain Jon’s apprehension, aside from the darkness and no light.
  
• The darkness may suggest that Jon is symbolically blind and unable to see the truth because he has no “Light” – or the Knowledge he needs to connect the dots, or figure out what he needs to in order to achieve enlightenment.
  
• When Jon says that he finds “no one”, this may ironically hint that when Jon returns to Winterfell, he will only find “Arya” alive in the castle.
  
• Jon wakes up from the ever increasing darkness of his dream to find himself “cold”, “clammy,” and “shivering”, all words that emphasize his environment. But Ghost provides him with warmth that he compares to “daybreak”, all of which may suggest Ghost as a symbolic link to “life” and “light”, and if we extend the symbolism of light, it is through Ghost that Jon will garner the knowledge he so desperately seeks behind the doors he opens, and through Ghost Jon will receive “life”.
  
• Jon’s dream can also be interpreted as a metaphor that reveals his feelings of abandonment. Jon misses Winterfell, so it is natural that he would dream of his home and of his family, all memories foremost in his daily thoughts that may appear in his nightly dreams.
  

What I think that the dream means:

• The “doors” with no one behind them means certain Starks will not be returning to Winterfell but to be buried in the crypts: Ned, Benjen, and Robb specifically. Since Jon finds “no one”, this intimates that he and Arya may meet again.
  
• Jon’s journey down the spiral staircase into ever increasing darkness intimates that Jon will journey in a realm between life and death. If the crypts symbolize death, Jon wakes up before meeting with that which he fears.
  
• Ghost is warmth, light, knowledge, the weirwoods, the old gods, all of which also encompass Bran, Bloodraven, and the CotF. So through Jon and all the symbolic aspects of Ghost, Jon will live – not die. And Jon will see “daybreak” or the “light”, all suggesting that through Ghost, Jon will receive the knowledge, or learn the truth.
  
• I think that Jon’s dream hints at Jon’s near death experience during which he will warg Ghost who will allow him to live. While in Ghost, Jon will learn some truths, or all truths, which may include his parentage, the nature of the white walkers, the secrets long forgotten at Winterfell, the whereabouts of his surviving family, and more, or less.
  

Some thoughts.

In Jon's dream, he states that there are no ravens and that in the stables, there are nothing but bones. In other words, he has no way to communicate with anyone nor can he leaves. He's trapped in Winterfell, even though he doesn't think his place is there. He also notes that he doesn't know who he's looking for... although he's calling out a name, which is usually Ned, but occasionally Robb, Arya, or Benjen. Jon's clearly seeking something, but he doesn't know what it is... so he seeks out those who are closest to him instead. He never finds them, though. I don't think it's insignificant that he never ends up looking for Sansa, Bran, or Rickon. I have to wonder if the fact that he's not looking for them is an indicator that those are the only Starks he'll see again.

In some ways, we can take this whole dream as a giant metaphor for his experience in the Night's Watch. Jon is cut off from the rest of the world as a member of the Watch and each time he attempts to help or reach out to a member of his family, it ends in complete and utter failure. Jon never manages to help Ned or Robb or Benjen or Arya. The parts of his dream where he starts to scream out for someone, for anyone, while trapped in Winterfell seem to be suggestive of how lonely he is once he becomes Lord Commander. Jon is desperate for good men for the Watch, but there are none, and by the end of ADWD, he has almost no personal connections left. His journey finds him in front of the crypts of Winterfell - a place associated with death - which related to his stabbing. Jon descends into the darkness, despite not being one of them, because he knows he has to. This definitely suggests that in the future, Jon will be taking a spiritual journey of sorts. And as for the end?

Well, Jon describes himself as being "cold and clammy" when he wakes, which can be attributed to the weather, but it also can be a way to describe a corpse. He isn't one, though, thankfully, and it's because of Ghost that he remains alive.

One final thought. Is there any significance to Jon taking the steps three at a time? I know the dragon has three heads and all that, but I'm not sure that's what it's referencing.