Old Gods, cold gods and Starks: a Heretic re-read

[nenya~]

On our Direwolf thread, I believe ALIA OF THE KNIFE offered up a really good theory about why Jon is gifted Ghost. She said that in some tropes, the hero is given a "test" - and in passing the test, he wins the prize. [i am simplifying, of course]. So Jon, by sacrificing his own personal desires for a pup, convinces Ned that he does not want a pup so that his brothers and sisters each have a direwolf. Jon's reward is the "pick of the litter" - well, I think so, anyway.

Never though about it that way before, but I really like that theory. And nice info on all the mama wolf and pup stuff!

[nanother]

@ Little Wing, yeah, the curtain of light could be a portal. Or it could be a side effect of whatever the Others are doing?

@ Evita: I'm really glad you found the courage to post - I can see that this thread is nowhere near as cosy as yours, but that doesn't mean we don't appreciate your thoughts!

re: the idea of Jon being tested and rewarded - it sure does feel like that. Which is interesting, because we won't see much of that later in the series, will we? I mean, being altruistic and honorable usually seems to result in being taken advantage of, rather than being rewarded...

Also, interesting point about Ghost (not) being driven away - at first read it feels like Ned must be right, but it's indeed odd... I have t think about that.

--

In other news, I lost track of the schedule already, so I guess I'll just update in every few days as it comes - was going to post Tyrion tonight but am too tired and my computer is being uncooperative, so it'll have to be tomorrow.

[Frey family reunion]

That's an incredibly cool parallel! It's strange, though, that the lands of men and gods are sort of switched. You equate the land beyond the wall with 'men' because of the wildlings. But in ASoIaF terms it's actually the land of gods: the refuge of the Singers (and thus the Old Gods) and the home of the Others also known as 'cold gods', whereas below the Wall are the 'realms of Men'. The whole point the NW arc was getting at that the wildlings are Men, same as the people of the Seven Kingdoms so they belong in the same 'realm' even if they happen to live beyond the Wall.

I don't think we're dealing with gods in the traditional sense. I think the seven kingdoms may represent the land of gods in Martin's tale because it deals with a land made up of beings who are worshipped (the lords) and their servants or their worshippers (the small folk). While beyond the wall the children of the forest and the wildings allegedly have no such distinction.

[Melifeather]

I've brought this idea up before somewhere, but I think it merits repeating: "silence" on Ghost's part can be likened to the devout that takes a vow of silence in order to better hear and connect with their god. Jon notes that Ghost belongs to the old gods, and the old gods don't speak.

[evita mgfs]

I've brought this idea up before somewhere, but I think it merits repeating: "silence" on Ghost's part can be likened to the devout that takes a vow of silence in order to better hear and connect with their god. Jon notes that Ghost belongs to the old gods, and the old gods don't speak.

:bowdown: :bowdown: FEATHER CRYSTAL: GREAT POINTS about Ghost and the "vow of silence", which brings to mind the Quiet Isle - I believe the "devout" there take a vow of silence for a marked period of time, similar to Ghost and his association with the forces that are the old gods and their complemenary silence.

Now, about the forces of the old gods not being able to speak: it has been a "silent" thought, one I have not shared, but I wonder if at one time the forces that are the old gods DID SPEAK throught the mouths of the weirwoods. Martin oft describes the expressions on the remarkable trees throughout the POV's thus far in AGoT. Moreover, the "mouth" symbology is a motif I have been documenting in the reread. Samwell will later find documents that map weirwood groves, but I did not go back to double check the text so I cannot remember if what he found had illustrations of the faces as well.

Then, an adjunct to the idea of "talking trees" is that maybe the forces of the old gods used the ravens to speak through the mouths of trees. But these are simply my wild speculations, brainstorming out loud, if you will. :blushing:

To further augment your reference to "silence": one of Arya's oft repeated phrases is "SILENT AS A SHADOW". Learning to be quiet and to move unseen are techniques that Syrio and the Kindly Man reinforce in Arya's training as a water dancer and assassin, respectively. :dunno:

[nanother]

I've brought this idea up before somewhere, but I think it merits repeating: "silence" on Ghost's part can be likened to the devout that takes a vow of silence in order to better hear and connect with their god. Jon notes that Ghost belongs to the old gods, and the old gods don't speak.

Good catch! Yeah, now I remember reading this in one of the Heresies and thinking it was an good idea - but then I forgot about it somehow, so thanks for repeating!

@ Evita:

Yes, this makes one wonder what those mouths are for! As for the documents Sam finds, I don't remember anything about maps of groves, but I do remember he mentioned weirwood faces. So putting the two together, whatever he found probably had both (too lazy to actually look it up...)

@ Frey Family Reunion:

Yeah, that makes sense, but I still think it's an interesting twist to 'swap over' the two realms in terms of actual gods and humans.

[Little Wing]

@ Little Wing, yeah, the curtain of light could be a portal. Or it could be a side effect of whatever the Others are doing?

The source of the long winters and all-around weird seasons? Hm, who knows...

[nenya~]

There's that gate in the Nightfort with a face in weirwood, and I believe it talks to Sam. I can't remember exactly what it looked like though...was it a face drawn in a weirwood, or could it have been just a really old greenseer?

The mouths also could've been for blood sacrifices. When Bran sees those visions, I think he tastes blood in his mouth when he sees the woman killing that captive.

I really need to go look those up now

[nanother]

The Black Gate at the Nightfort opens its mouth to give passage. That implies its mouth must be large enough for them to fit through.

There's one tree Mortmont & co find that has signs of burning and a skull (or some other bones?) in its mouth. Mind you, can't be very pleasant to 'greensee' into, so if it was intended as sacrifice, it might have been counter-productive.

[nenya~]

Yeah, I just looked it up, forgot about the mouth opening up.

A turn or two later Sam stopped suddenly. He was a quarter of the way around the well from Bran and Hodor and six feet farther down, yet Bran could barely see him. He could see the door, though. The Black Gate, Sam had called it, but it wasn’t black at all.

A glow came from the wood, like milk and moonlight, so faint it scarcely seemed to touch anything beyond the door itself, not even Sam standing right before it. The face was old and pale, wrinkled and shrunken. It looks dead. Its mouth was closed, and its eyes; its cheeks were sunken, its brow withered, its chin sagging. If a man could live for a thousand years and never die but just grow older, his face might come to look like that.

Sounds like he could be an old greenseer, but no mention of a body, so I don't know. Maybe just weird old gods magic or something.

And the quote on the sacrifice:

“No,” said Bran, “no, don’t,” but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man’s feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

No mention that the blood went into the mouth.

There's one tree Mortmont & co find that has signs of burning and a skull (or some other bones?) in its mouth. Mind you, can't be very pleasant to 'greensee' into, so if it was intended as sacrifice, it might have been counter-productive.

Sounds more like big "fu" to the old gods than a sacrifice. Sort of like a "I killed your villager, burnt your tree, and stuck his skull in your mouth" Can't really see who would burn the tree though. The Others seem to dislike fire, or at least the wights do. Could have been someone like Craster. I don't know, not really sure what to make of that. Also, I don't recall any weirwoods at Craster's place either.

[evita mgfs]

NANOTHER AND NENYA: In the other reread, I have been "documenting" the mention of "mouths" and elements of the "oral cavity" like speaking, breathing, tasting, and more. As a result, I am finding some interesting patterns that might be "heretical". I will mention a few examples off the top of my head, but so as not "spoil" anything, I will give you the instance, and you can look for the evidence during the reread.

1. A "mouth of a sewer" will play an important part of a girl's journey through a tunnel.

2. Aforementioned girl will enter a dragon's mouth, the teeth like spires or sharp points that tear at the girl's jerken: this mirrors Bran's 3EC dream with the spires on which the dreamers are impaled.

3. The girl's father will enter a forge as hot as "dragon's breath".

4. Girl will "kiss" a one-eared black tomcat right between the eyes. The girl will also kiss the skull face and eat a worm from an eye-socket.

5. The Winterfell crypts "breathe".

I will share a bit of scholarship I found on "mouth" symbology in the Online Dictionary of Symbology in Literature:

MOUTH SYMBOLOGY

**The mouth is the center of many of the fundamental components of human activity. It is consumption, speech, breath, romance; it is communication, interaction, almost a door to the soul.

**Consumption

**Speech

**Breath

**Romance

**Communication

**Interaction

**Door to the soul

http://www.umich.edu...ml/M/mouth.html

[Tyryan Lannister]

popping in for a peek...

2. Aforementioned girl will enter a dragon's mouth, the teeth like spires or sharp points that tear at the girl's jerken: this mirrors Bran's 3EC dream with the spires on which the dreamers are impaled.

Was it in Heresy where someone posted about the parallels between Bran's journey to BR and Arya's journey with the FM? Cause this here's another possible parallel to their stories

[Little Wing]

Yep, Arya_Nym, in the previous Heresy.

[evita mgfs]

When I first came to westeros, I had written one of my long pieces for a thread that was called Parallel Journeys - I think - and I traced the similarites between Arya and Bran and Jon. We also discussed the parallel journeys in Arya's Destiny and Arya / Braavos and the Water Motif. Arya Nym was with us as well, and Little Wing. I also took the Night's Watch Oath and parsed it line for line, and I found "like" lines in Arya's POV that insinuate like "pledges" to Him-of-Many-Faces. In AGoT alone, each of the characters seem to have symbolic odysseys that involve "total" darkness, Jon's dream, Arya in the tunnel, Sansa and the Hound, Catelyn's ascent in the Vale of Arryn - and Ned's "dark" journey is yet to come! Is Bran in "darkness" at any time in his 3EC dream?

[nanother]

Sorry guys, apparently I got some sort of flu and I didn't have the brainpower to digest the Tyrion chapter - lots of stuff in there! Anyway, I'm getting there.

@ Evita

"Girl will "kiss" a one-eared black tomcat right between the eyes." - like the 3rd eye?

Bran falls through darkness in his 3EC dream. By the time we join him, he can already make out the ground below, but he's been falling for a long time, so presumably at some point it was completely dark (sounds like the world below is his only source of light). At the beginning, he's still mainly focusing on the darkness.

[nenya~]

5. The Winterfell crypts "breathe".

So the heart tree has a face with a mouth, and the crypts "breathe"...more proof the heart tree and crypts may be connected?

[nanother]

Tyrion III (Chapter 21)

We get more glimpses of the sad state the NW is in, including some statistics:

“The Watch has no shortage of stableboys,” Lord Mormont grumbled. “That seems to be all they send us these days. Stableboys and sneak thieves and rapers. Ser Alliser is an anointed knight, one of the few to take the black since I have been Lord Commander. He fought bravely at King’s Landing.” “On the wrong side,” Ser Jaremy Rykker commented dryly. “I ought to know, I was there on the battlements beside him. Tywin Lannister gave us a splendid choice.

The underlined part must be a mistake. That'd imply he was LC at the time of Robert's rebellion, but when I tried to find some clues about when he joined/got elected, I found that his predecessor Qorgyle was still LC when Mance visited Winterfell and saw Jon& Robb playing in the snow, which had to be some years after the rebellion, then. Also, the wiki says he fought in the rebellion, and was Lord of Bear Island at the time, although doesn't provide a reference.

The Night’s Watch is dying. Our strength is less than a thousand now. Six hundred here, two hundred in the Shadow Tower, even fewer at Eastwatch, and a scant third of those fighting men.

...

In two years I will be seventy. Too old and too weary for the burden I bear, yet if I set it down, who will pick it up? Alliser Thorne? Bowen Marsh? I would have to be as blind as Maester Aemon not to see what they are. The Night’s Watch has become an army of sullen boys and tired old men. Apart from the men at my table tonight, I have perhaps twenty who can read, and even fewer who can think, or plan, or lead. Once the Watch spent its summers building, and each Lord Commander raised the Wall higher than he found it. Now it is all we can do to stay alive.

Later we have a good look at the castle during Tyrion's cage-ride up the Wall:

Castle Black lay below him, etched in moonlight. You could see how stark and empty it was from up here; windowless keeps, crumbling walls, courtyards choked with broken stone.

Mormont's monologue (or close enough)

After dinner they retire to Mormont's chambers, where they have some very strong mulled spirits. Mormont offers Tyrin escort back to Winterfell and then single-mindedly tries to get him see the need of/for the Watch. He speaks about the decline in both numbers and quality (see above), about Gared*, and the sings of winter, and not just any winter, but the 'Long Night' coming. He's repeatedly described as being 'deaf to' or 'paying no mind to' his reactions or the raven's interruptions, except for the short intercourse he has with Tyrion, about winters**.

Mormont reached out and clutched Tyrion tightly by the hand. “You must make them understand. I tell you, my lord, the darkness is coming. There are wild things in the woods, direwolves and mammoths and snow bears the size of aurochs, and I have seen darker shapes in my dreams.”

“In your dreams,” Tyrion echoed, thinking how badly he needed another strong drink.

Mormont was deaf to the edge in his voice.

Gods, he's desperate!

Does he have green dreams? It's unusual for the highborn and educated to put any stock in dreams at all, let alone use them as one of the main arguments to support their plea... so he must be very deeply convinced that his dreams actually mean something.

Also, what are these shapes, then? Are they literally dark (in which case I have no idea what they might be), or is he possibly dreaming of the Others? That could be one explanation why he believes the rumours about WW at Esatwatch...

“The fisherfolk near Eastwatch have glimpsed white walkers on the shore.”

This time Tyrion could not hold his tongue. “The fisherfolk of Lannisport often glimpse merlings.”

The Others we get to meet are somewhere between Craster's and the Fist. But, clearly, they show up all over the place beyond the Wall.

So how much does the Watch know about these white walkers? I think Mormont at least suspects they might be the Others, seeing that he's talking about the 'Long Night'. There's the fact that the Eastwatch guys saw it fit to report it, and then Mormont thought it important enough to mention. Remarkably, it's a wildling term. Or lowborn term, possibly? Much is made of the possible difference between 'WW' amd 'Others' in Heresies, so it's worth keeping an eye on.

Anyway, as far as Tyrion's concerned, he's saying all the wrong things, but he just goes on, seemingly oblivious. I get the impression he just wants to get everything off his chest, even though all he really has is dreams, rumours and gut feelings, realising that this might be his last chance to be heard. No wonder he needed those extra strong mulled spirits...

“Denys Mallister writes that the mountain people are moving south, slipping past the Shadow Tower in numbers greater than ever before. They are running, my lord . . . but running from what?” Lord Mormont moved to the window and stared out into the night. “These are old bones, Lannister, but they have never felt a chill like this. Tell the king what I say, I pray you. Winter is coming, and when the Long Night falls, only the Night’s Watch will stand between the realm and the darkness that sweeps from the north. The gods help us all if we are not ready.”

“Tell them, Tyrion. Tell them and make them believe. That is all the thanks I need.” He whistled, and his raven flew to him and perched on his shoulder. Mormont smiled and gave the bird some corn from his pocket, and that was how Tyrion left him.

*Gared:

He freely admits to being a fool to give Royce the command. Indeed, what happened t the 'you get what you earn' principle? Is it a case of being more concerned with the matters of the realm (not offending Lord Royce) than with the welfare of his own men?

...yet it would seem he forswore himself and fled. I should never have believed it, not of him, but Lord Eddard sent me his head from Winterfell.

Is that to emphasize how horrible the things Gared saw were, or to suggest that Gared might not have truly deserted?

**Winters:

Mormont and Tyrion discuss past winters. There was "a terrible cruel one that the maesters said had lasted near three years" when he was born, and he says he's seen 8-9 winters (all of them short). Seeing that he's 24 (if the wiki is to be believed) and it's been summer for the last 9, nearly 10 years, that implies a relatively quick change of seasons in between.

Tyrion also mentions the 'Great Summer', which his wet nurse said would come eventually, if men are good. I suppose it's not taught y the Faith, then - I wonder where the wet nurse got it from. Sounds a bit like the Red Lot, sans Azor Ahai.

Depending on when Mormont took the black, he might not have seen many winters on the Wall, although he surely saw many, and some bad ones, at Bear Island.

Giants:

I'm not sure what to make of giants, but they seem to be pretty significant in any case, so it's probably worth keeping track of them. Especially seeing Frey Family Reunion's comments about Norse mythology.

So, our newest giant is Tyrion:

As Rykker filled it for him, Bowen Marsh said, “You have a great thirst for a small man.”

“Oh, I think that Lord Tyrion is quite a large man,” Maester Aemon said from the far end of the table. He spoke softly, yet the high officers of the Night’s Watch all fell quiet, the better to hear what the ancient had to say. “I think he is a giant come among us, here at the end of the world.”

Tyrion answered gently, “I’ve been called many things, my lord, but giant is seldom one of them.”

“Nonetheless,” Maester Aemon said as his clouded, milk-white eyes moved to Tyrion’s face, “I think it is true.”

For once, Tyrion Lannister found himself at a loss for words. He could only bow his head politely and say, “You are too kind, Maester Aemon.”

The blind man smiled. He was a tiny thing, wrinkled and hairless, shrunken beneath the weight of a hundred years so his maester’s collar with its links of many metals hung loose about his throat. “I have been called many things, my lord,” he said, “but kind is seldom one of them.” This time Tyrion himself led the laughter.

Aemon answers in jest, but he's also dead serious: he didn't say what he said out of kindness and reaffirms it twice. We already got a similarly unsubtle bit of foreshadowing (literally) in Jon I with him "standing tall as a king". He must be really important to warrant all this (Loki? as FFR suggested).

Eyes:

“Chip the ice off your eyes, my good lords. Ser Alliser Thorne should be mucking out your stables, not drilling your young warriors.”

How true.

"[Maester Aemon's] clouded, milk-white eyes moved to Tyrion’s face" and "as blind as Maester Aemon" - but we know Aemon has a way of 'seeing' things (perhaps more clearly than people with working eyes, as he just demonstrated)

The Wall:

Behind the King’s Tower, the Wall glimmered in the light of the moon, immense and mysterious. Tyrion stopped for a moment to look up at it. His legs ached of cold and haste. Suddenly a strange madness took hold of him, a yearning to look once more off the end of the

world. It would be his last chance, he thought; tomorrow he would ride south, and he could not imagine why he would ever want to return to this frozen desolation. The King’s Tower was before him, with its promise of warmth and a soft bed, yet Tyrion found himself walking past it, toward the vast pale palisade of the Wall.

When people say stuff like this, it usually means they do end up returning...

The brothers spread crushed stone across the walkways, but the weight of countless footsteps would melt the Wall beneath, so the ice would seem to grow around the gravel, swallowing it, until the path was bare again and it was time to crush more stone.

Still, it was nothing that Tyrion could not manage. He looked off to the east and west, at the Wall stretching before him, a vast white road with no beginning and no end and a dark abyss on either side.

West, he decided, for no special reason...

Rather ominous. Also, Tyrion's whims and instincts are leading him just in the right direction. How convenient.

The wind swirled around him, gravel crunched beneath his boots, while ahead the white ribbon followed the lines of the hills, rising higher and higher, until it was lost beyond the western horizon.

...

When he had donned his glove again, Jon Snow turned abruptly and walked to the low, icy northern parapet. Beyond him the Wall fell away sharply; beyond him there was only the darkness and the wild. Tyrion followed him, and side by side they stood upon the edge of the world.

Again very ominous.

I wonder if Tyrion ever got to piss off the edge of the world (as he said in an earlier chapter he wanted to). He might have been too concerned about freezing his manhood off...

Ghost:

“If I halt too long I’ll freeze in place, Jon,” he said as a shaggy pale shape slid toward him silently and sniffed at his furs. “Hello, Ghost.”

Who was described using the same words in the Prologue? That's right, the Other Royce fought :worried:

Tyrion scratched the white wolf behind the ears. The red eyes watched him impassively.

I guess "impassive" is as good as he will get from the Stark direwolves... But still, now that Jon befriended Tyrion, he's no longer hostile.

They walked, with Ghost pacing along beside Jon like a white shadow.

:uhoh:

From Jon's chapters it seems that Ghost is a source of warmth (the source of warmth, even) to him, so it's interesting that Tyrion's POV would describe him in such a similar way to the Others. Of course, he's called Ghost for a reason, and these are all traits ghosts share with the Others. And they aren't known for their warmth either...

Wind:

A small wooden shack stood under the great crane, and Tyrion saw the dull glow of a brazier and felt a brief gust of warmth when the winch men opened the door and went back inside. And then he was alone.

It was bitingly cold up here, and the wind pulled at his clothes like an insistent lover.

That's Tyrion for you :P

Later, the wind swirls around him as he walks west.

As he stood there and looked at all that darkness with no fires burning anywhere, with the wind blowing and the cold like a spear in his guts, Tyrion Lannister felt as though he could almost believe the talk of the Others, the enemy in the night. His jokes of grumkins and snarks no longer seemed quite so droll.

[Black Crow]

Yesss... we've discussed quite a lot of this on the main Heresy thread series, but those remarks about Gared are very interesting.

Its worth remembering that Gared (so far as we know) wasn't actually watching when Craster's boys did for Ser Waymar, so what was it that seemingly scared him so much he went over the Wall instead of reporting back that there had been a horrible massacre? Was there indeed a second encounter we weren't told about?

[Black Crow]

And yes, using the same language to talk about both Craster's boy and Ghost is interesting...

[Little Wing]

Maybe Mormont trusts his dreams because they have been meaningful in the past? Maybe the Wall has something to do with it, gives them queer dreams? To First Men, especially? Or is it just LC's with the raven as their companion? Hm...

Also, as to pleasing Lord Royce - it wasn't for the Royces' benefit - it was a way to make Lords send more sons to the Watch, to have more "Sers" in the Watch as they are the minority and the murderers and rapists are the majority. So, imo, Mormont had the Watch in mind with the Royce business, not the realm.