Old Gods, cold gods and Starks: a Heretic re-read

[nenya~]

Listen to that wolf, boy!

How much does the wolf know? Premonition? Glimpses f the future? The intent of the Old Gods? They certainly wouldn't want Bran to go south, but would arranging something like this be within their power?

Hmm, if the Old Gods tried to arrange the whole thing with Bran falling to prevent him from going south, then why would Summer (if he is a gift from the Old Gods) try to warn him against climbing? That means Summer would be going against the Old Gods in that particular moment. I think it's more likely it was just an instinctual thing for Summer, sensing danger for Bran. Whether it was the Old Gods intent for Bran to fall, I don't know.

Also, I went ahead and read the Arya chapter since it was skipped and noticed that Ghost is the largest of the direwolves. Arya notes that "Ghost, already larger than his litter mates..." Just thought it was interesting.

[Black Crow]

As regards Summer's warning before that last fateful climb, I have a feeling that it may turn out to be a mistake to assume that the "Old Gods" are all working to the same plan.

There is a very strong emphasis all the way through on how different Ghost is and while Bran's fall isn't directly caused by a crow I can't help but feel that they were somehow involved and that rather than a straightforward, Oops! Bran has fallen but never mind the Three-Eyed-Crow will teach him how to fly, there may be some kind of battle for his soul.

Basically, if we accept without question for a moment, that the direwolves were sent by Bloodraven and the Children, why did Jon get the white winter one instead? Who fixed that?

[redriver]

I would say all the direwolves warn their respective owners when there is imminent danger about.Summer was warning of nasty Lannisters about,not that he would fall.This repeats throughout the books,be it Lannisters,Freys or disloyal Night's Watch.

Four of the direwolves attack Tyrion and he's a relatively nice Lannister.

I think perhaps this was foreseen via the weirnet in an acorn is the oak,the oak is the acorn way they have.

[TheButcherCrow]

Who fixed that?

Let's just hope it wasn't Jim & leave it at that.

[ViennaGirl]

Basically, if we accept without question for a moment, that the direwolves were sent by Bloodraven and the Children, why did Jon get the white winter one instead? Who fixed that?

So true - why didn't Bran get Ghost? Wouldn't that have made so much sense with the weirwood connection? So Bran got Summer and Jon got Ghost. If it had been the other way around, it would be such a fantasy trope - the greenseer kid gets the old gods white wolf with the red eyes, and the maybe-destined-to-rule-bastard got the summer wolf indicating that, at the end, he'll rule over a summer world. I hadn't ever thought about why Bran DIDN'T get Ghost, although I've thought a lot about why Jon DID.

[armidil0]

Maybe the Others sent he direwolves. Hoping that Jon becomes hte king of winter and...I lost my train of thought.

Maybe Bran was crippled by BR to get him closer with BR. In hopes that he ushers in a summer. While Jon rules hte Winter? I'm confusing myself. Sorry. I actually stumbled across this by accident.

[DrunkSister]

This thread if flying! No way will I be able to keep up.

Prologue:

What struck me on my reread was that we don't really know how dangerous WW are: Waymar can be defeated by Gared so that he is losing to a WW tells us nothing, and if Will had some obsidian arrows with him the whole thing would have gone down in different manner.

Next thing was the pitiful war cry of "For Robert!". Really O, Horn that wakes the sleepers, is that the best you can do?! --> Are realms of men really represented all that well in a figure of their king? Did previous genereations (pre conquest) yell "For Starks"?

So much lore was forgotten and somebody is to blame. I mean, everybody on that sorry scouting mission has heard all the relevant stories and songs and yet articulating them is just not done. Why? Faith of Seven? Maester conspiracy?

Aaaand, they most certainly aren't the only scouting mission to go missing - and Wildlings get the blame. It is my belief that the Watch is 1000 strong because of WW who have been killing them off for an extended period of time, the Watch blames Wildlings which sours their relationship.

It makes me wonder: why is The Gift empty? Did Wildlings scare the people away with their raids?

Bran I:

He has the very same reaction to execution as Sansa to that squire's death during the tournament, reinforcing how alike they are.

Catelyn I:

She is, ironically, more open to messages from beyond than her husband who worships old gods. I never realized before just how pragmatic and open she is. Again, this emphasizes just how much lore has been lost but I am not sure if we should put the blame on lord Rickard's execution since he had 'southron ambitions' and maybe the loss occurred before him (and we get to read about it in D&E :drool: ).

Catelyn II:

Did anybody notice how her chambers are at the 'heart' of Winterfell? It is significant not only for her as a character but for the history of Starks - female Starks (mothers of next generation) have a special place in the fortress.

I get the impression that old gods were screaming at Eddard not to go. Can anybody make a check list of what would have happened to Westeros if he refused?

I am really glad this thread exists, I have tried to read the Heresy several times only to get bogged down. I mean, there is a nice summary at thread no. six but that can't be a good beginning because there are so many more after that! As a consequence sometimes you guys reference things and I have no idea what you are talking about.

[Melifeather]

I think I am inclined to agree with Black Crow's suggestion that perhaps the reason why Summer howled when Bran climbed the tower was because there was a "fight" over him: the old gods versus the realm of death. The realm of death wanted him killed/pushed, but the old gods wanted him alive. This would actually support the Three-eyed crow being a separate entity than Bloodraven, and would suggest that the old gods/children of the forest are not on the same side as the White Walkers, who I believe are part of the realm of death....or the spirit world, if you would prefer to look at it that way.

[Melifeather]

As for the albino direwolf being Jon's wolf, they are both the outcasts. The albino was pushed away from the mother by the other pups just as Jon was pushed away by Catelyn. It's also so that we know that Jon belongs with the old gods and that his possible Targaryen parentage is not as important as most readers believe.

[ViennaGirl]

As for the albino direwolf being Jon's wolf, they are both the outcasts. The albino was pushed away from the mother by the other pups just as Jon was pushed away by Catelyn. It's also so that we know that Jon belongs with the old gods and that his possible Targaryen parentage is not as important as most readers believe.

Yes, absolutely, and that's why I never thought of Ghost with Bran. The outcast wolf pup had to go with Jon. BUT, Ghost is so obviously related to the old gods and the weirwoods, and now we see Bran's relationship with the trees, and it seems obvious that you could make the case that Ghost could just as easily have belonged to Bran - at this point. I love that GRRM wrote Jon/Bran and Ghost/Summer this way. It's obvious that Ghost's relationship to the north and old gods means something about who Jon is, but if you switch Ghost and Summer at this point (ADwD), it would probably work. We need more information about Jon/Ghost. And probably also about Bran.

[nenya~]

Another thing about Jon is that he probably has less "southron" influence than his "siblings". They all worship and/or learned of The Faith because of Catelyn. Bran even wanted to be a knight, which is associated with the seven. Cat pretty much said "it is past time for Arya learned the ways of southron court." Jon didn't have any of that southern/Faith influence because Cat pretty much hated him. That could be why Jon is "more of the north" than the others, and why Ghost connected to him.

And also, didn't Ned marry Catelyn in a Sept (can't remember)? Not to mention that it's been speculated that R+L were married in front of a weirwood.

[nanother]

As regards Summer's warning before that last fateful climb, I have a feeling that it may turn out to be a mistake to assume that the "Old Gods" are all working to the same plan.

There is a very strong emphasis all the way through on how different Ghost is and while Bran's fall isn't directly caused by a crow I can't help but feel that they were somehow involved and that rather than a straightforward, Oops! Bran has fallen but never mind the Three-Eyed-Crow will teach him how to fly, there may be some kind of battle for his soul.

Basically, if we accept without question for a moment, that the direwolves were sent by Bloodraven and the Children, why did Jon get the white winter one instead? Who fixed that?

This is a good point. As it was discussed before, there's more at work than just Bloodraven single-handedly managing every minuscule detail of his 'grand plan'. If we go by what we're told about the Old Gods, they're the spirits of all the ever existed greenseers. There's nothing to indicate that they present a unified front. And what we're told is more than likely not the full picture (there's quite a lot of speculation going on in the Heresy threads about that). As for current greenseers, BR might be the 'last', the most active, with the strongest ties to current people/events, but even just in BR's cave there are all those other ones still more or less aware of the world. And there's at least one other significant HQ for the Old Gods, that we were only told about so far: the Isle of Faces. So it's quite possible that there are different factions of the Old Gods...although it's all very confusing and hard to see what they might be...

Bran's fall and subsequent staying in Winterfell was so convenient for BR (or whatever force is behind him) that it's hard not to think he had something to do with it. That said, being a greenseer seems to suit Bran rather well and dishing out greenseer talent in the first place should certainly be well beyond BR's (or any single greenseer's) competence. I'm not sure what to think of his 'normal' coloring - yes, the greenseers of the singers are supposedly marked by special eye color, and Bloodraven certainly is. Even Jojen has deep green eyes, and he only has green dreams. But I'm not sure how significant all that is :dunno:

Also, I'd guess that the Starks going south is not in the Old Gods' interest in any case - seems like they may have more power in the South than Osha thinks, but probably less than up in the North. Remarkably, Howland Reed, who's probably the single most competent person south of the Wall as far as CotF-lore goes, is apparently not too worried about the 3EC, at least he sends his son North to lead Bran to him.

As to who sent the wolves and why it's Jon who got the weirwood one: No idea who sent them, but my impression is that higher forces than Bloodraven were at play there. Ghost's the one set apart because Jon's the bastard, that's easy enough. Bran's wolf can't be more strikingly different than his, that would ruin the symbolism. But that's not all, Ghost's completely different in so many ways: is found separately, looks different, sounds different (or rather, doesn't make sound at all), and is larger (thanks, nenya!) and opened his eyes sooner than the others (sooner than any wolf pup should, apparently). The last bit actually seems to suggest that he's slightly older -> from a different mother, but the coincidence of Gared/mother wolf/stag all turning up at the right times/places is already mysterious enough without adding an extra pup out of nowhere to the mix :dunno: Anyway, making Ghost that different, and weirwood colored (or is it blood on the snow?) in particular, is likely to have more significance than just him being the outsider.

Anyway, sorry for the long rambling post, I'm mostly just thinking out loud and probably way over-complicating things...

[Mace Cooterian]

As for current greenseers, BR might be the 'last', the most active, with the strongest ties to current people/events, but even just in BR's cave there are all those other ones still more or less aware of the world. And there's at least one other significant HQ for the Old Gods, that we were only told about so far: the Isle of Faces. So it's quite possible that there are different factions of the Old Gods...although it's all very confusing and hard to see what they might be...

@nanother. The way I took the Isle of Faces....according to Wiki the last reference was Bran Chapte 24, in ASoS. So we've had basically 2-1/2 books since the last reference so I'm not sure how important this "centrally located beach head" is for the CoTF. IMHO, I think it serves as a portal for BR and whoever else might be looking through the weirwood net to see what is going on in middle Westeros.

[nanother]

@ Mirijam

Good observations!

As to lore getting lost, it happens all the time, even without special conspiracy. Over a span of thousands of years (with a switch from oral to written tradition only relatively recently) it's not too surprising that so much was forgotten. Also, I have a feeling that the Others might have wanted to be forgotten. But there's definitely a negative influence from the Maesters (and possibly the Faith as well?): the highborn and the 'learned' must not believe in 'crib tales', and everything magical or rationally unexplainable falls into that category...

I think "For Robert!" just further emphasizes how green Royce is. At this point he's still a knight first and a Black Brother second. Had he spent more than half a year at the Watch he might have shouted "For the Watch!" or whatever...

It makes me wonder: why is The Gift empty? Did Wildlings scare the people away with their raids?

IIRC Jon or Bran, possibly both of them, say something along those lines at some point. As for the Watch, I think it's partly the loss of men (desertions/disappearances), but also the fact that they're taken less and less seriously by the realm -> they get fewer men in the first place.

She is, ironically, more open to messages from beyond than her husband who worships old gods. I never realized before just how pragmatic and open she is. Again, this emphasizes just how much lore has been lost but I am not sure if we should put the blame on lord Rickard's execution since he had 'southron ambitions' and maybe the loss occurred before him (and we get to read about it in D&E :drool: ).

I also suspect that most of the knowledge was already lost by Rickard's time. Religion seems to have become more of a habit - they pray, but they don't seriously expect the Gods to actually answer. It's an interesting point about Catelyn, though. There's a line of thought in the Heresies about Bran's greenseeing ability coming via his Riverland mother. Personally, I don't subscribe to it, but Cat being seemingly more receptive of the Old Gods (even though she can't stand them) is one thing that can hint towards it. Although, it's worth noting that while Ned seemingly doesn't put stock in signs and legends, he does heed his instincts even though more often then not he lets himself bullied into acting against them. Seeing how Cat gets the 'sign' totally wrong, I don't think Ned's approach is any worse...

I get the impression that old gods were screaming at Eddard not to go. Can anybody make a check list of what would have happened to Westeros if he refused?

That's a big 'what if'. Robert may not have accepted his refusal in the first place. If he did, as far as the Game of Thrones, Cersei would have made her move against Robert all the same, but probably not so soon. Renly and Stannis would still have made their moves. Whatever Varys was up to might have come to fruition by then, so there's a big unknown there. For the Starks? No need to send Jon to the NW, no obvious need to be involved in the conflict after Robert's death, Lady would live, probably no sack of Winterfell, probably would be much more difficult to get Bran to BR (imagine the Reeds turning up and trying to explain Ned that his son is a greenseer), no water dancing for Arya :dunno:

I am really glad this thread exists, I have tried to read the Heresy several times only to get bogged down. I mean, there is a nice summary at thread no. six but that can't be a good beginning because there are so many more after that! As a consequence sometimes you guys reference things and I have no idea what you are talking about.

This thread should definitely be much more manageable than the Heresies! Heresy 6 is the one with all of Old Nan's tales, right? That's a good one to read in any case. But other than that, if there's anything you don't understand in the current threads, I'm sure mostly everyone happy to explain!

[nanother]

@nanother. The way I took the Isle of Faces....according to Wiki the last reference was Bran Chapte 24, in ASoS. So we've had basically 2-1/2 books since the last reference so I'm not sure how important this "centrally located beach head" is for the CoTF. IMHO, I think it serves as a portal for BR and whoever else might be looking through the weirwood net to see what is going on in middle Westeros.

Didn't Martin say that we'll learn more about them, though? I hope so... The Kinght of the Laughing tree sought them out, right? So they might be relevant to the happenings of 16 years ago, which are supposedly the 'key to the future'...

[Black Crow]

This thread should definitely be much more manageable than the Heresies! Heresy 6 is the one with all of Old Nan's tales, right? That's a good one to read in any case. But other than that, if there's anything you don't understand in the current threads, I'm sure mostly everyone happy to explain!

Heresy 6 it is

Heresy six,

[Mace Cooterian]

Didn't Martin say that we'll learn more about them, though? I hope so... The Kinght of the Laughing tree sought them out, right? So they might be relevant to the happenings of 16 years ago, which are supposedly the 'key to the future'...

I did a quick search on the Knight of the Laughing Tree and I didn't find any reference to the knight (notice how I didn't say he or she) seeking out the CoTF. The story on the KoLT seems to be centered on the Tourney at Harrenhall, where three knights had been de-horsed due to their squires trying to bully Howland Reed. There are also so references about Meera and Jojen being surprised that Bran had never heard of the story from Eddard; implying that the Knight was either a Stark, or someone close to the Stark family.

Unless I overlooked something the sigil (laughing weirwood tree) of the KoLT is the only relevance to the CoTF.

[nanother]

That's right, I remember now. But then it was the little crannogman (=Howland Reed) who sought them out (the green men on the Isle of Faces, not the CotF). Or am I getting that wrong as well? I'll look it up eventually...

[ViennaGirl]

another thing - I'm re-reading ASoS, and I just came to the part where Qhorin Halfhand wants Jon to come scout the Skirling Pass because he's a Stark, and the Starks have a connection to the old gods. I wonder what Qhorin thinks Jon can do with that connection? Deal with the wildlings? Stay alive? It seems like a useless connection, unless it's not.

[Little Wing]

Well, we're re-reading AGoT right now, so we won't be jumping to ASoS. Maybe re-post this on Heresy?