Old Gods, cold gods and Starks: a Heretic re-read

[Little Wing]

Re: the question of all Starks being wargs

I guess the easiest speculation to make is that they do have it in their blood and it's latent. But if a familiar is at hand, then it comes out on the surface - first as wolf dreams and if the warg opens his/hers 3rd eye, that's when the warging unconditioned by dream state takes place. Now, is warging possible if you only open your third eye, without the proper "gene" which the Starks definitely have? Are Wildling wargs capable to warg because the teachings of the Children on how to open your third eye have been carried on from generation to generation since the Children showed the way to the First Men? Or do wargs, Starks and some of the Wildlings, have this ability because of interbreeding with Children or the Others/Sidhe, as it is already speculated on Heresy?

[Black Lady]

I think it has to be significant that it's her eyes that are decaying. If the direwolf is a symbol for House Stark, dead perhaps even before the pups were born, what do the 'blind eyes crawling with maggots' stand for?

I have an issue with the use of the term "Blind eyes" it seems odd to me. I would have used "dead eyes" if I wanted to describe that the dire wolf was dead an therefore couldn't see any more. To me it seems that there is something more to it and indeed there already was something wrong with the eyes before she died. But maybe it's just that English isn't my first language and i interpreted this the way I would in my own language.

[Melifeather]

I should have stated that Ned refused to recognize the direwolf as "sign" not "truth" as previously said.

Not all wargs are greenseers, but all greenseers are wargs.

[Melifeather]

The maggots in the dead direwolf' eyes symbolizes Ned's refusal to recognize the direwolf scene as a sign.

[Melifeather]

@Little Wing...regarding wargs and greenseers...I think weirwood seed paste can open greenseer ability, but the gene has to be there. How they got the ability is still a mystery, but its a theory of mine that the Stark bloodline wasn't "true" until Lord Beron's "son". Then I think the direwolves are important too in order to awaken the gift.

[Viserys_The Transformed]

Why Ned beheaded the deserter at the holdfast ?

Because, First, Ned listened to what he had to say. Deserter spoke of Others. Ned wanted to prevent unnecessary (according to him) fear wave to arise, disturbing the peace he had worked very hard to maintain for last 9 years. Si, he decided, not to take the deserter at Wall for beheading, but quickly doing Justice, as it was His Power and Responsibility.

[Melifeather]

Why Ned beheaded the deserter at the holdfast ?

Because, First, Ned listened to what he had to say. Deserter spoke of Others. Ned wanted to prevent unnecessary (according to him) fear wave to arise, disturbing the peace he had worked very hard to maintain for last 9 years. Si, he decided, not to take the deserter at Wall for beheading, but quickly doing Justice, as it was His Power and Responsibility.

Ned isn't a believer in wargs and White Walkers as well as signs. Catelyn mentions he's not a believer in signs, so I am going to go out on a limb and state that he's not a believer in anything magical either. He's downplayed old Nan stories to his children as well, so I'm thinking Ned thought Gared was a raving lunatic. But, like Little Wing stated, he still had to execute him in order to be consistent since any deserter has to be beheaded...otherwise you'd have other families coming out of the woodwork stating that their son is a raving lunatic too so that he might be spared. He executed him at the holdfast because deserters are dangerous men. Ned stated that they know their lives are forfeit and so would not hold back from committing any crime. He views them as too dangerous to be brought back to Winterfell.

[nanother]

Feather Crystal is right, Ned doesn't believe in anything magical.

“You listen to too many of Old Nan’s stories. The Others are as dead as the children of the forest, gone eight thousand years. Maester Luwin will tell you they never lived at all. No living man has ever seen one.”

That said, there's no indication whatsoever that Gared mentioned the Others. Certainly not in any recognizable way. Bran doesn't recall it, Jon doesn't ever recall it, and Ned's reaction in Cat's chapter doesn't suggest that he recalls it either. So IMO either he was talking totally incomprehensible garbage, or he didn't say anything about it at all.

[nanother]

At this point I'd welcome some suggestions about the next few chapters t discuss. Especially from those of you participating in other re-reads, so likely to have fresher memories of what is in each chapter. .. Should we discuss the first Ned chapter (the visit in the crypts could be interesting)? And any other Winterfell chapter?

[A wilding]

[Ned] views [Gared] as too dangerous to be brought back to Winterfell.

I am not sure that this is true. Ned lives in a world with simple rudimentary justice. There is no doubt as to the man's guilt, so there is absolutely no reason to delay the execution. Gared's danger lay in what he might do to escape capture rather than him being likely to escape once captured.

I also very much doubt that Gared told Ned anything coherent about the Others. Ned says to Catelyn something like "something had put a fear into him deeper than my words could reach".

More generally, Ned is concerned about what is going on North of the Wall, and is already assuming he is going to have to call out the banners and take drastic action at some point. So I think he is more interested in collecting intelligence than dispelling rumours at this point. Which makes it something of a pity that Gared was not willing or able to report what he had encountered.

[Black Crow]

It may be a case of Gared not being willing to explain.

The impression Ned gives when talking to Cat is that Gared was half mad with fear and unable to tell him. Yet Bran, although not able to hear anything distinctly saw a conversation with questions asked and answers given. Likewise as pointed out above, no-one else standing more closely within earshot heard or remembered anything exciting, and afterwards comment was made on how bravely he died.

The only way to reconcile this sensibly is that Gared was refusing to explain what had happened and why and that Ned interpreted this rightly or wrongly as Gared being too afraid to answer. In that sense he must indeed have been very afraid to tell and perhaps mitigate his desertion, even if that inevitably meant his death.

Which in turn comes back to the question whether there was more going on than him simply doing a runner.

[nanother]

Indeed. That would also better explain why he's scared out of his mind weeks after the event. Seeing Will's reaction to the Others gutting Royce, and generally everyone else's reactions to wights and Others, Gared seems to be slightly overreacting...

Although, notice how Bran never says who asked and who answered, only

that 'questions were asked' and 'answers were given'. So a more

down-to-earth explanation could be that the Q&A session also involved

the people who caught Gared, so some or all of the answers would have

come from them.

[Little Wing]

Yeah, I guess a short summary of Ned's chapter in the crypts is useful. Then it's Jon's chapter, but it's more of a character chapter... but I'm perfectly fine with both :)

Hm... why would Gared refuse to say what happened when he has nothing left to lose? Was he afraid to be sent back at the Wall with the Others out there waiting?

[Black Crow]

Well the other lot can raise the dead, so even if he's facing execution they could still come and get him.... While its possible that the Q&A session was with his captors, that's not how it came across. It was Gared who was questioned and Ned who was frustrated by his refusal to explain.

[Melifeather]

I think it bears repeating that Gared did answer...Ned dismissed his answers as crazy talk since Ned doesn't believe in snarks and grumpkins.

[Black Crow]

I'm not sure, I rather get the impression the answers were more in the nature of can't say, won't say and if you say so.

[nanother]

:agree:

That's not saying Ned would have believed him anyway, but surely someone else would have.

Now, the question is, whose interest is it to get Gared there, but not talk, and how did they get him to cooperate?

I guess they could have threatened him with wighting on the spot, but one south of the Wall he shuld have been safe, shouldn't he? Did they made him swear? But again, why would he keep it if they can't reach him anymore? Unless they showed him the heart of winter and it worked the same as it did for Bran :dunno: :owned:

[nanother]

Yeah, I guess a short summary of Ned's chapter in the crypts is useful. Then it's Jon's chapter, but it's more of a character chapter... but I'm perfectly fine with both :)

Hm... why would Gared refuse to say what happened when he has nothing left to lose? Was he afraid to be sent back at the Wall with the Others out there waiting?

OK, so Ned I it is (will post a summary on Friday), and then Jon I some time later. I guess I'll edit the opening post as well.

[Lady Olenna]

I should have stated that Ned refused to recognize the direwolf as "sign" not "truth" as previously said.

Not all wargs are greenseers, but all greenseers are wargs.

Is this the case with Jojen? I don't recall him having warging abilities...but we also don't have his pov either.

[Black Crow]

There's a little confusion here I think over the hierarchy because GRRM is a little loose in his terminology.

Jojen has greendreams, and can see the future in a symbolic sort of way through visions but not do anything about it other than warn people.

A greenseer on the other hand doesn't have greendreams but can see things through other eyes, first as a warg through his or her familiar, and then later through the eyes of weirwood trees, and because they are actually looking through eyes rather than dreams/visions they can see things as they are rather than in a cryptic form which needs to be interpreted.