Old Gods, cold gods and Starks: a Heretic re-read

[Melifeather]

Warging and greensight (green dreams) are abilities, but to be a greenseer you have to have both.

[Blisscraft]

Justice

Justice is depicted in art as a beautiful female goddess, facing full front with a sword in one hand and a set of scales in the other. The scales are a symbol of weighing the evidence and determing guilt or innocence; the sword is a symbol of the power, in the event of guilt to pronounce sentence. She is blindfolded, sugggesting a lack of predetermined decisionmaking, fairness in her POV.

Bran's chapter begins with an example of the "king's justice," as opposed to the "gods' justice." It's his first time to "see the king's justice done." Bran believes that he will see a "wilding" and from that we get the first mention of Old Nan and her stories about wildings, giants, the Others, and the Long Night. Also, we get a mention of interbreeding between the Others and human women which produces half human children. The idea of being "half" appears with Jon Snow, a bastard, a half Stark, a little later in the chapter. Jon's "other" half remains a mystery.

Bran sees the man who will receive the "king's justice." He is disappointed. He had expected something more monsterous; someone out of Old Nan's stories. What he sees is simply a man, "old and scrawny, not much taller than Robb (a youth, not yet a man). We know the man's name is Gared because of his description from the Prologue; he's missing his both ears and a finger lost to frostbite (the pinky on his left hand). Bran sees Gared is dressed all in black, but that his furs are "ragged and greasy." Gared is a man of the Nights Watch, but is unimposing and pitiful.

Bran pretends he's seen this "justice" all before. Perhaps his self consciousness is what prevents him from remembering which questions were asked and what answers were given by Gared to his Father before the beheading. Jon advises Bran to keep his pony in had and "don't look away." Bran follows Jon's advise and witnesses the beheading without looking away. Jon is "an old hand at justice." What stands out to Bran is the man's blood. Bran can't take his eyes off it. The blood "on the snow is red as summer wine" and the "snows around the [ironwood] stump drank it eagery, reddening as he watched."

After the beheading, Bran rides with Robb and Jon. There is an exchange between them regarding Gared and whether he died "bravely." Robb believes he died showing courage. Jon disagrees and says, "It was not courage. This one was dead of fear. You could see it in his eyes." As if to settle the disagreement, Robb and Jon race to a bridge. Bran cannot keep up and watches them ride off.

Ned rides up next to Bran. Ned "loomed over him like a giant." This seems to be more than Bran's assessment between their relative statures. Bran "looks up" to his father as an example of wisdom and knowlege. This is evident in their talk. The exchange between Bran and Ned produces some of the most memorable lines in the books regarding bravery. Bran asks, "Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?" Ned replies, "That is the only time a man can be brave." Also, it is in this same conversation that Ned explains "the older way," as opposed to the "king's" way. This way has to do with seeing, looking with the eyes. The "man that passes the sentence should swing the sword" because "f you take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. If you cannot do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die." The older way is personal; an exchange between judge and accused.

The judge, Ned, as trier of law and fact, has heard Gared, although we do not. From that "hearing," Ned has determined the facts about Gared; he is a deserter from the Night's Watch and an "oathbreaker." According to Ned,as finder of fact and decider of punishment, "no man is more dangerous" basically because an oathbreaker has nothing left to lose. Ned must perform all of the duties to fufill the older way. There are no surrogates or substitutions. Justice performed in to old way is not blind. Justice is enacted and meted out with open eyes.

Metaphor for the Old Gods

The next part of Bran's chapter is the discovery of the dead direwolf and her pups. Robb finds the direwolf, north of the bridge. This little detail may reveal a means of seeing the Wall as a "bridge," between the old gods and men. The direwolf hasn't been seen south of the Wall for two hundred years. It is a "freak." It is an "omen." It is not of Winterfell's world except as a sigil. Maybe this is why Theon exclaims, "Gods," after he goes over the bridge and sees the dead mother direwolf.

The way to the mother and her pups is heavy with snow drifts. The ground is uneven. It is not easy, just as a way to god is not easy. It is a road less travelled. Perhaps this uneasy journey foreshadows Brans trip to the north of the Wall later. The reaction of Winterfell's men to the dead direwolf is one of both awe and fear.

Bran, at first, focuses on the snow around her body. He sees blood stained snow around her, like the blood from Gared. Bran is only able to tear "his eyes away from the monster" when Robb shows him the "bundle" in his arms. The other men are troubled by the fact that the pups have possibly been "born with the dead."

Jon is the person who seems to be abe to interpret the "message" of the direwolf and her pups. Ned's children were meant to have them. Jon points out the number and sex match the number and sex of Ned's trueborn children and that the direwolf is the sigil of Winterfell. Bran recognizes that Jon has excluded himself in the pup count. Jon has made a sacrifice for the others. This may be a suggestion as to his eventual fate.

Once the party with the pups is half way across the bridge, Jon hears something. He doesn't see it. Also, no one else seems to hear what he hears. He rides back over north of the bridge and finds his own pup, the only white one. The pup that has open "red eyes. . . as red as the ragged man who had died this morning."

Someone above suggested the "only life can pay for life" and refered to the direwolf mother. This is possible, however, it could be Gared's death. Either way, a message has been sent south of the Wall to the Warden of the north. A change is in the air and isn't simply the weather.

[Black Crow]

Warging and greensight (green dreams) are abilities, but to be a greenseer you have to have both.

Its something we can discuss over on the main heresy thread rather than here, but the point at issue is that as a warg a greenseer can see directly through other eyes, whether a familiar or a weirwood, whereas someone with greensight like Jojen has visions which like Mel's dodgy ones need to be interpreted: cf: his sea coming over the walls of Winterfell and his seeing Bran as the winged wolf breaking his chains.

[Battlekitten]

I find the timing of the direwolf's death curious

The pups were alive. It is possible to have live birth from a dead Mother but it has to happen very quickly. A normal whelping would be 2-6 hours with massive trauma I don't know

The pups were clean. Mother normally eats the amniotic sacks they are born with etc and licks them clean to stimulate circulation and bowels

The pups were blind save for Ghost. Normally puppies stay blind for 1-3 weeks.

Location. Did Ned's party take a different route back home? If not the direwolf had to get there within the last few hours. Or did she have a den very very close (a few meters at most) and the pups crawled out after she died?

The stag. Where is it?

Assuming dire wolves and not wildly different from wolves, the pups were not born from the dead. Or if they were they had help

[nanother]

I find the timing of the direwolf's death curious

The pups were alive. It is possible to have live birth from a dead Mother but it has to happen very quickly. A normal whelping would be 2-6 hours with massive trauma I don't know

The pups were clean. Mother normally eats the amniotic sacks they are born with etc and licks them clean to stimulate circulation and bowels

The pups were blind save for Ghost. Normally puppies stay blind for 1-3 weeks.

Location. Did Ned's party take a different route back home? If not the direwolf had to get there within the last few hours. Or did she have a den very very close (a few meters at most) and the pups crawled out after she died?

The stag. Where is it?

Assuming dire wolves and not wildly different from wolves, the pups were not born from the dead. Or if they were they had help

It's possible (even likely) that Martin didn't research the birthing process of the wolves very thoroughly. Many of these issues can be sort of explained, but some others can't:

The wolf may have kept going after being injured, so the stag could be quite far away, dead or badly injured itself.

They might not have noticed it on the way there because they were preoccupied and it was some way off the road half buried in snow. Or, the wolf could have arrived while they were in the holdfast, but then she had to whelp fairly quickly. Not sure about the timeframe, they might have spent some extra time having a meal or whatever. Unfortunately, there's not much to help guessing how long she'd been dead.

Well, there was the faint smell of corruption and the maggoty eyes, but could that occur soon enough after death for the pups still be alive? How long can the pups stay alive (and mobile) without being fed (and in the snow)? I had the idea that she might have received a would that festered. But then, a wound that covers both eyes? And she can sitll keep going and hunt for stags?

The pups being clean might suggest that the mother was still alive when whelping, or it might be a mistake on Martin's part.

Also, I didn't realise it's weeks before pups open their eyes - that means that Ghost either isn't born from the same mother (so, rather than being driven away because he's albino, he never belonged to the litter...possibly mirroring RLJ, but then how did he end up there?) or again it's a 'mistake' (perhaps intentional, saying not only was he the first to open his eyes, but he did so way before he was supposed to). Utter crackpot: Gared was not only riding the direwolf, but also carrying Ghost with him...

SO, yeah, there are so many things 'wrong' with this pair of scenes that even assuming that the Old Gods had a hand in it, it's still hard to see how it could've happened

[Blisscraft]

I agree with Nanother as to the pups being clean. Presumably, the mother died trying to kill the stag to feed herself and through her nutrition, milk for the pups.

The direwolf, an extinct creature, appearing south of the Wall is uncanny, unusual, a sign, a portent. It is a message from the old gods. There is no "rational" explanation. It represents the return of the magical and mystical. What was once ignored, dismissed and disregarded has returned with the cold wind.

[nanother]

Once the party with the pups is half way across the bridge, Jon hears something. He doesn't see it. Also, no one else seems to hear what he hears. He rides back over north of the bridge and finds his own pup, the only white one. The pup that has open "red eyes. . . as red as the ragged man who had died this morning."

Someone above suggested the "only life can pay for life" and refered to the direwolf mother. This is possible, however, it could be Gared's death. Either way, a message has been sent south of the Wall to the Warden of the north. A change is in the air and isn't simply the weather.

I was thinking that, partly because the connection of Ghost's eye with Gared's blood, and also because it's a really strange pair of scenes to put into one chapter. But then how does it make sense? One random crow for six direwolf pups? Or was it only for Ghost (his eyes being the same color as Gared's blood)

I don't think the mother's death can pay for the pups' life - then all mothers should die when giving birth...it can pay for something else - someone suggested that kids whose mothers died in childbirth have special destinies (being forces of balance?)

[Little Wing]

Yeah, it was me, I suggested that the almost perfect, but morbid, balance that occurs when the mother (Jon's, Tyrion's and Dany's + the direwolves) dies while giving birth might be significant and a sign that those children are... well, marked mayhaps? Have a fate that will bring balance? Just some musings, of course...

RE: the inconsistencies with the direwolf birth

Is it of any significance to keep in mind that the direwolves in GRRM story are magical creatures or in any case, tied to the Old Gods? In that case, GRRM can have the process of them opening their eyes be much quicker than regular wolves... They grow up quickly, as we later find out - even the kids seem to grow and mature more quickly with them... So, not really explaining anything, just suggesting a take that they're magical and other rules apply...

Jon is the person who seems to be abe to interpret the "message" of the direwolf and her pups. Ned's children were meant to have them. Jon points out

Once the party with the pups is half way across the bridge, Jon hears something. He doesn't see it. Also, no one else seems to hear what he hears. He rides back over north of the bridge and finds his own pup, the only white one. The pup that has open "red eyes. . . as red as the ragged man who had died this morning."

I loved your post! As to the bridge being a metaphor for the Wall as a clasp for the two realms - the human and magical - does this sentence, maybe placing Jon halfway on the bridge, hearing Ghost, although there is no physical sound, make for foreshadowing of him being placed in the Wall after the stabbing and "hearing" Ghost again ie, making the connection with Ghost we all suspect happens?

[Melifeather]

Its something we can discuss over on the main heresy thread rather than here, but the point at issue is that as a warg a greenseer can see directly through other eyes, whether a familiar or a weirwood, whereas someone with greensight like Jojen has visions which like Mel's dodgy ones need to be interpreted: cf: his sea coming over the walls of Winterfell and his seeing Bran as the winged wolf breaking his chains.

I guess i can agree with this. You could say seeing through the trees is greenseeing.

[Melifeather]

Pearson Moore wrote a couple of really interesting essays that were published with his analysis of the Game of Thrones series and he goes into detail about the direwolf scene. I think his essays were fairly inexpensive on Kindle, like $4 or something.

[nanother]

RE: the inconsistencies with the direwolf birth

Is it of any significance to keep in mind that the direwolves in GRRM story are magical creatures or in any case, tied to the Old Gods? In that case, GRRM can have the process of them opening their eyes be much quicker than regular wolves... They grow up quickly, as we later find out - even the kids seem to grow and mature more quickly with them... So, not really explaining anything, just suggesting a take that they're magical and other rules apply...

Yes, that's by far the most likely 'explanation'. Yet, it's worth trying to see if we can make sense of things...

[Little Wing]

By all means. Nowhere did I say that we shouldn't brain-storm it....

[Tyryan Lannister]

Yes, that's by far the most likely 'explanation'. Yet, it's worth trying to see if we can make sense of things...

Try to make sense of things? What do you think this is, Heresy? Oh, wait... :devil:

[Frey family reunion]

Don't know if this is a closed group or not, let me know if it is. But I just happen to be rereading the chapters myself with an eye towards the influence of Norse Mythology on the series. Here is my impression with the scene with the antlers and the dire wolf:

In Norse mythology there is a god Freyj, basically a god of summer. The legend goes that he turns his eyes northward and spies a giantess living in a big house in the North and becomes smitten with her (sound like a Targarean prince we may know?). He asks an underling of his to woo her and bring him to her. The underlying does only with the request that he can get Freyj's magic sword (magic because it can fight on it's own if the owner is wise enough). Freyj (to his later regret) agrees.

Later Freyj encounters a giant and the only weapon he has at his disposal to fight the giant is an antler. He uses the antler to slay the giant.

Bran's description of Ned as a giant looming over him may show that Martin is putting the Starks and the north as the realm of the giants in his tale. The direwolf (a giant wolf) is slain by an antler may be an allusion to Freyj's battle with the giant.

My take is that Freyj could symbolize Westeros' summer (and esp. the southern kingdoms). Losing his sword and having to use an antler as his weapon could symbolize the fall of the Targareyen kingdom (the Targaryen's being the southern kingdom's "magic sword") being replaced with the antler or the rise of the Baratheon kingdom (which once Ragnorak comes around we learn the antler (Baratheons) proves to be a poor substitute for the magic sword (the Targareyens).

The direwolf being slain by the antler is also obviously a warning to the Stark family that the south (ruled by the Baratheon kingdom) is no friend of the Stark family.

[nanother]

By no means are we a closed group, so please keep sharing your observations! I'm not sure what to think (I know hardly anything about Norse mythology and the role of giants specifically)...the magic sword of a Summer God certainly makes sense in relation to the Targaryen family and the prophecies. But somehow I can't see how dethroning Aerys could stand for the loss of it. Also the scope of the war now seems much larger than just Westeros.

On a loosely related note, I wonder how the stag ended up being the Storm Kings' sigil. With the recent focus on the Storm God in Heresy, I wondered if the stag/antler has a broader meaning than just House Baratheon, and I thought there was something about that in the books, but I couldn't find it so far, so I might have been mixing things up. The only other thing related to antlers in Westeros is the order of the Green Men (according to Bran they sometimes have antlers)

[Little Wing]

Awesome post, Frey family reunion! No, we're not a closed group - please, keep contributing ^_^

nanother, maybe GRRM just wanted a horned, war-hammer wielding GOD! Here's a link to symbolism for stags. "The person bearing this symbol was considered impervious to weapons" Hm... Go Stannis, go!! :commie:

[Frey family reunion]

By no means are we a closed group, so please keep sharing your observations! I'm not sure what to think (I know hardly anything about Norse mythology and the role of giants specifically)...the magic sword of a Summer God certainly makes sense in relation to the Targaryen family and the prophecies. But somehow I can't see how dethroning Aerys could stand for the loss of it. Also the scope of the war now seems much larger than just Westeros.

On a loosely related note, I wonder how the stag ended up being the Storm Kings' sigil. With the recent focus on the Storm God in Heresy, I wondered if the stag/antler has a broader meaning than just House Baratheon, and I thought there was something about that in the books, but I couldn't find it so far, so I might have been mixing things up. The only other thing related to antlers in Westeros is the order of the Green Men (according to Bran they sometimes have antlers)

I'm no norse mythology scholar myself, I had read the myths when I was a child and that along with my collection of Thor comics is pretty much all the infor I had. However, I've been trying to refresh my knowledge going through the wiki. So anyone out there that is an expert in Norse mythology, please correct me when I'm wrong.

I think the Norse mythology influence on Martin is more of an inspirational one rather than a quid pro quo. Thus I don't think Aerys himself would be the symbol of the magic sword, but the Targaryen dynasty as a whole. I think the sword metaphor occurs in several ways. 1) the very idea of a dragon rider could be seen as the two components of the sword, the blade is the dragon and the hilt is the dragon rider (i.e. blade does you no good without the hilt to guide and control it). and 2) I believe also as we go further along in the books that the idea of forging a sword (re: lightbringer) may refer to building a dynasty, and "lightbringer" may be the end product or person of the dynasty. The idea of "tempering" the sword could be seen as bringing in a different bloodline to marry into the Valyrian one.

When the south "gives away" the magic sword, it might be referring to losing the Targaryen dynasty as it's ruler. Also the symbolism of the iron throne being made up of swords might add the the Targaryen sword analogy.

The idea of a losing the magic sword could also refer more broadly to the idea of Westeros giving up it's belief and use of magic, and the rise of the Baratheon kingdom replacing the idea of a "magical kingdom" with a more practical one.

[nanother]

Yeah, that makes quite a lot of sense!

So is the House name Frey a nod to this Norse God, then? Like House Morrigen to a certain other Goddess...

[Black Crow]

I'm no norse mythology scholar myself, I had read the myths when I was a child and that along with my collection of Thor comics is pretty much all the infor I had. However, I've been trying to refresh my knowledge going through the wiki. So anyone out there that is an expert in Norse mythology, please correct me when I'm wrong.

I think the Norse mythology influence on Martin is more of an inspirational one rather than a quid pro quo. Thus I don't think Aerys himself would be the symbol of the magic sword, but the Targaryen dynasty as a whole. I think the sword metaphor occurs in several ways. 1) the very idea of a dragon rider could be seen as the two components of the sword, the blade is the dragon and the hilt is the dragon rider (i.e. blade does you no good without the hilt to guide and control it). and 2) I believe also as we go further along in the books that the idea of forging a sword (re: lightbringer) may refer to building a dynasty, and "lightbringer" may be the end product or person of the dynasty. The idea of "tempering" the sword could be seen as bringing in a different bloodline to marry into the Valyrian one.

When the south "gives away" the magic sword, it might be referring to losing the Targaryen dynasty as it's ruler. Also the symbolism of the iron throne being made up of swords might add the the Targaryen sword analogy.

The idea of a losing the magic sword could also refer more broadly to the idea of Westeros giving up it's belief and use of magic, and the rise of the Baratheon kingdom replacing the idea of a "magical kingdom" with a more practical one.

Can we shift this one to the main Heresy thread, there's a fair few of the regulars like Tyryan don't get over to this side much, but I'm sure would appreciate these useful insights.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Can we shift this one to the main Heresy thread, there's a fair few of the regulars like Tyryan don't get over to this side much, but I'm sure would appreciate these useful insights.

I would indeed :cool4: