Where was each respective host during the Battle of the Blackwater?

[galanix]

The early movements of the Battle of the Blackwater are pretty easy to figure out. However, I am confused which host was where at the end of the battle. I know Stannis's host partially crossed on both the bridge of ships and via galleys to the Tourney Grounds. Then at the end of the battle the Tywin and Tyrell hosts arrive, as described by Dontos in the Red Keep:

“[...] Lord Tywin himself had their right wing on the north side of the river, with Randyll Tarly commanding the center and Mace Tyrell the left, but the vanguard won the fight. They plunged through Stannis like a lance through a pumpkin, every man of them howling like some demon in steel.

And do you know who led the vanguard? Do you? Do you? Do you?”

[...]

“It was Lord Renly! Lord Renly in his green armor, with the fires shimmering off his golden antlers! Lord Renly with his tall spear in his hand! They say he killed Ser Guyard Morrigen himself in single combat, and a dozen other great knights as well. It was Renly, it was Renly, it was Renly! Oh! the banners, darling Sansa! Oh! to be a knight!”

This is where is gets confusing. If Tywin's right wing was on the northern bank, then Randyll's center and Mace's left would also be on the northern bank. So who fought Stannis's southern forces? There is no fording the Blackwater near King's Landing, so it's unlikely any of the hosts were able to cross mid-battle. We do know that the Tywin and Tyrell hosts floated up barges to King's Landing from Tumbler's Falls:

“When you stopped Lord Tywin on the Red Fork,” said the Blackfish, “you delayed him just long enough for riders out of Bitterbridge to reach him with word of what was happening to the east. Lord Tywin turned his host at once, joined up with Matthis Rowan and Randyll Tarly near the headwaters of the Blackwater, and made a forced march to Tumbler’s Falls, where he found Mace Tyrell and two of his sons waiting with a huge host and a fleet of barges. They floated down the river, disembarked half a day’s ride from the city, and took Stannis in the rear.”

So it's possible they split their hosts on both the northern and southern banks. But if the three main hosts were on the northern bank, this only leaves Garlan's vanguard to fight at the south. I always thought the vanguard fought below the walls on the northern side, but perhaps this is wrong.

Then there is the question of Stannis's rearguard led by Rolland Storm -- the Bastard of Nightsong. He fought off the Lannister-Tyrell forces long enough for 2,000 of Stannis's men to escape aboard the Lyseni galleys. Did this rearguard fight on the northern bank and Stannis escape from near Aegon's High Hill? Or did Rolland Storm and Stannis both remain on the southern bank the entire time? I lean toward the latter option, but it's not entirely clear.

Basically I'm confused about the location of the following, with respect to the river and King's Landing:

• Mace's left wing
  
• Randyll's center wing
  
• Tywin's right wing
  
• Garlan's vanguard
  
• Rolland Storm's rearguard
  
• Stannis's escape route
  

Below is a rough guess on the location of these hosts, but I feel like some of it is wrong and I welcome input...

http://i.imgur.com/gVG5769.jpg[/img]

[Winterz]

Honestly, I am not the best person to clarify you on that but I do have one question. That map seems pretty good, did you made it yourself? And would you allow its use on the Wiki (once you've been clarified ofc)?

[galanix]

Honestly, I am not the best person to clarify you on that but I do have one question. That map seems pretty good, did you made it yourself? And would you allow its use on the Wiki (once you've been clarified ofc)?

Yeah I made it myself. It's based on the King's Landing map from The Lands of Ice and Fire book. I'd allow its use regardless of whether my issue is clarified.

[Chaircat Meow]

Dontos is drunk. Flip it around. He's looking from KL to the west. So the right is the left if you are Tywin and they are on the north, Mace is the furthest south, Garlan and Tarly are next to the river on the south side.

[Winterz]

Yeah I made it myself. It's based on the King's Landing map from The Lands of Ice and Fire book. I'd allow its use regardless of whether my issue is clarified.

Thanks. Well, it would be best if I used a correct version of it though :P

[Nyrhex]

That can't be right... I think Martin wrote North, but meant south of the river. The bridge of the burning ships should be on the boom chain no? that was what stopped the ships. And how can three battles, led by Tywin, Tarly and Mace charge together in that tight spot? Only a few hundred of Stannis's men crossed, that means Garlan's van is facing Stannis's army alone pretty much. I think it should be Mace closest to the river, then Tarly, then Tywin. Garlan is infront of Tarly, then banks left (north) to hit Stannis's force in the rear, putting him infront of Mace aswell. After that it's sort of a push through anyone who still fights, with men from Stannis's side switching midbattle more then fighting.

[galanix]

Dontos is drunk. Flip it around. He's looking from KL to the west. So the right is the left if you are Tywin and they are on the north, Mace is the furthest south, Garlan and Tarly are next to the river on the south side.

I've considered this possibility. So that would mean Tywin's host is the only one on the north side. I just wish it was more clear. I don't like having to rely on assuming Dontos is mistaken.

[galanix]

That can't be right... I think Martin wrote North, but meant south of the river. The bridge of the burning ships should be on the boom chain no? that was what stopped the ships. And how can three battles, led by Tywin, Tarly and Mace charge together in that tight spot? Only a few hundred of Stannis's men crossed, that means Garlan's van is facing Stannis's army alone pretty much. I think it should be Mace closest to the river, then Tarly, then Tywin. Garlan is infront of Tarly, then banks left (north) to hit Stannis's force in the rear, putting him infront of Mace aswell. After that it's sort of a push through anyone who still fights, with men from Stannis's side switching midbattle more then fighting.

The bridge of burning ships started to form at the stone quays, which are much further upstream of the winch towers. I'm pretty sure about this. The reason the bridge formed is because so many of them wrecked at once when the wildfire exploded, and they were being held together by grappling lines. It had nothing to do with the chain.

I'm a little confused by your description. Which side (northern or southern bank) are you saying each host is on?

[Nyrhex]

Dontos is drunk. Flip it around. He's looking from KL to the west. So the right is the left if you are Tywin and they are on the north, Mace is the furthest south, Garlan and Tarly are next to the river on the south side.

Dontos isn't looking west, he is retelling what was told to him by a kettleblack, and later confirmed by more gold cloacks. We don't know if all of them had also looked west, but I think it's more likely that they kept the name given to each "battle" ("the left"/"the right"/"the van"). In this formation Tywin is the furthest south, and Mace the furthest north, with Garlan before Tarly (who is in the middle).

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

The show would have me believe that Garlan was on the north bank, but I think it was just Tywin on the north, as I can't imagine there being much room for another host there between the walls and the river, and the others were on the south, where most of Stannis' host was. It is confusing saying how the right wing was on the north...

I think that Mace and Tarly were behind Garlan on the south bank, facing east, and Stannis, on the south bank, was forced to retreat east with Rolland to the Lysene fleet. I don't know what happened to his forces on the north bank. Captured? Destroyed? Or were they saved by the Lyseni too?

[galanix]

Dontos isn't looking west, he is retelling what was told to him by a kettleblack, and later confirmed by more gold cloacks. We don't know if all of them had also looked west, but I think it's more likely that they kept the name given to each "battle" ("the left"/"the right"/"the van"). In this formation Tywin is the furthest south, and Mace the furthest north, with Garlan before Tarly (who is in the middle).

Tywin is specifically stated to be on the northern bank. If you claim he is furthest south than that means no one attacked Stannis's troops on the southern bank. I think many of Stannis's troops were unable to cross and thus left on the southern bank, so someone had to have been there to meet them , or they wouldn't have surrendered.

[galanix]

The show would have me believe that Garlan was on the north bank, but I think it was just Tywin on the north, as I can't imagine there being much room for another host there between the walls and the river, and the others were on the south, where most of Stannis' host was. It is confusing saying how the right wing was on the north...

I think that Mace and Tarly were behind Garlan on the south bank, facing east, and Stannis was forced to retreat east with Rolland to the Lysene fleet.

The show is hardly canon, they left a lot out of the battle. If Mace and Randyll's hosts were on the south bank, that would mean Dontos reversed left and right, which is certainly possible, just not satisfying... and confusing.

[Nyrhex]

The bridge of burning ships started to form at the stone quays, which are much further upstream of the winch towers. I'm pretty sure about this. The reason the bridge formed is because so many of them wrecked at once when the wildfire exploded, and they were being held together by grappling lines. It had nothing to do with the chain.

I'm a little confused by your description. Which side (northern or southern bank) are you saying each host is on?

About the bridge, I may be off, was a while since I last read the books, but I'm pretty sure it was the chain that kept the ships from moving downstream, while 40 of Stannis's ships were to the west of the bridge, unharmed and started transporting troops.

Regarding the hosts, I think that since it's mentioned that they all cross through the Kingswood, and march through the land that Stannis burnet, it's pretty clear they are to the south and Martin wrote north of the river by mistake, and meant south of the river. If all forces of the Tyrell/Lannister alliance are south of the river, all we need to do is look at the battle formation in a 90 degeree tilt. That is, Mace is closest to the river, but from the south of it. Tarly is to Mace's south, and Tywin is to Tarly's south, so we get:

King's Landing-River-Mace-Tarly-Tywin.

The Van is infront of the Center, so that means east of the center.

Basically, copy the three hosts under Mace/Tarly/Tywin. Paste south of the Blackwater, so that Tarly is behind Garlan. Mace should be behind Garlan and north of him, and Tywin behind Garlan but south of him. Have the arrows show Mace take north like Garlan, but alot closer to the river, Tarly behind Garlan, and Tywin going for Rolland's Rearguard.

Tywin is specifically stated to be on the northern bank. If you claim he is furthest south than that means no one attacked Stannis's troops on the southern bank. I think many of Stannis's troops were unable to cross and thus left on the southern bank, so someone had to have been there to meet them , or they wouldn't have surrendered.

I think Martin slipped here, and Tywin is to the south, not North of the Blackwater. I think all three hosts, and the van, are to the south of the Blackwater, and the few hundreds of Stannis's army that had crossed, surrendered when they saw that the battle was lost.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

The show is hardly canon, they left a lot out of the battle. If Mace and Randyll's hosts were on the south bank, that would mean Dontos reversed left and right, which is certainly possible, just not satisfying... and confusing.

Yeah I know. I sat there trying to work it out in my head when I first read it before giving up.

[galanix]

About the bridge, I may be off, was a while since I last read the books, but I'm pretty sure it was the chain that kept the ships from moving downstream, while 40 of Stannis's ships were to the west of the bridge, unharmed and started transporting troops.

I'm pretty sure that's wrong. The foot of the bridge was Dragonsbane, which crashed into one of the piers. If you look at a map of King's Landing, the piers are located quite further upstream of the winch towers.

Regarding the hosts, I think that since it's mentioned that they all cross through the Kingswood, and march through the land that Stannis burnet, it's pretty clear they are to the south and Martin wrote north of the river by mistake, and meant south of the river. If all forces of the Tyrell/Lannister alliance are south of the river, all we need to do is look at the battle formation in a 90 degeree tilt. That is, Mace is closest to the river, but from the south of it. Tarly is to Mace's south, and Tywin is to Tarly's south, so we get:

King's Landing-River-Mace-Tarly-Tywin.

The Van is infront of the Center, so that means east of the center.

Basically, copy the three hosts under Mace/Tarly/Tywin. Paste south of the Blackwater, so that Tarly is behind Garlan. Mace should be behind Garlan and north of him, and Tywin behind Garlan but south of him. Have the arrows show Mace take north like Garlan, but alot closer to the river, Tarly behind Garlan, and Tywin going for Rolland's Rearguard.

I think Martin slipped here, and Tywin is to the south, not North of the Blackwater. I think all three hosts, and the van, are to the south of the Blackwater, and the few hundreds of Stannis's army that had crossed, surrendered when they saw that the battle was lost.

They didn't all cross through the Kingswood. The Blackfish actually gives us details of how they arrived at King's Landing (in my first post I quote it). They all met at Tumbler's Falls (a town on the Blackwater) and floated on barges from there disembarking a little ways outside of KL. So they likely split their forces there with some on the north side of the river and some on south, going through the Kingswood.

Your model has none of their hosts on the northern bank which doesn't seem likely to me, and also completely rejects that Dontos said Tywin was on the north bank. I don't think it's clear enough to be dismissing his account. If all of their hosts were truly on the southern bank, the already crossed Stannis troops could've sacked the city as they were essentially about to break the gates down.

[Chaircat Meow]

Dontos isn't looking west, he is retelling what was told to him by a kettleblack, and later confirmed by more gold cloacks. We don't know if all of them had also looked west, but I think it's more likely that they kept the name given to each "battle" ("the left"/"the right"/"the van"). In this formation Tywin is the furthest south, and Mace the furthest north, with Garlan before Tarly (who is in the middle).

I meant 'he was looking west' because that's the only way to make the statement that Tywin was on the right consistent with the claim he was on the north bank, i.e. Dontos must be describing the divisions of army in terms of left, right from the perspective of someone looking towards them from the east to the west.

[Nyrhex]

Ok, I just reread the battle. The bridge is indeed closer to the Mud gate, but there can't be any Tywin/Tyrell forces on the north bank. Tyrion is fighting on the bridge when the reinforcements arrive, and he is the only one there with ~40 men, perhaps more if Swan brought more men with him from the Mud gate. Then Osney Kettleblack in Sansa's chapter says that Tyrion and Moore cannot be found, Swan returned to the city, Stannis's few hundred that landed and arrived on the bridge are trying to bring down the gates while on the south side of the river there is fighting, prheps between Stannis's lords. The entire Tyrell/Lanister host is indeed to the south of the Blackwater, and Martin wrote "North" in Dontos' description of the battle by mistake.

On the other side, the Red Keep loomed high on

its hill, spitting fire. They were on the wrong sides, though. For a moment Tyrion thought he was going mad, that Stannis and the castle had

traded places. How could Stannis cross to the north bank? Belatedly he realized that the deck was turning, and somehow he had gotten spun

about, so castle and battle had changed sides. Battle, what battle, if Stannis hasn’t crossed who is he fighting?

Osney Kettleblack pushed past him. “There’s fighting on both sides of the river now, Y’Grace. It may be that some of Stannis’s lords are

fighting each other, no one’s sure, it’s all confused over there. The Hound’s gone, no one knows where, and Ser Balon’s fallen back inside the

city. The riverside’s theirs. They’re ramming at the King’s Gate again, and Ser Lancel’s right, your men are deserting the walls and killing their

own officers. There’s mobs at the Iron Gate and the Gate of the Gods fighting to get out, and Flea Bottom’s one great drunken riot.”

[galanix]

there can't be any Tywin/Tyrell forces on the north bank. Tyrion is fighting on the bridge when the reinforcements arrive, and he is the only one there with ~40 men, perhaps more if Swan brought more men with him from the Mud gate. Then Osney Kettleblack in Sansa's chapter says that Tyrion and Moore cannot be found, Swan returned to the city, Stannis's few hundred that landed and arrived on the bridge are trying to bring down the gates while on the south side of the river there is fighting, prheps between Stannis's lords. The entire Tyrell/Lanister host is indeed to the south of the Blackwater, and Martin wrote "North" in Dontos' description of the battle by mistake.

I fail to see how the provided quotes indicate that none of the Tywin/Tyrell hosts arrived on the north bank. When Tyrion's chapter ends the bridge of ships broke apart and he was much further east of where Tywin's host would have arrived. So I don't see how any of the quotes preclude a host on the northern bank.

[Chaircat Meow]

The other thing is that if, as the BF says, the combined army disembarked half a day's ride from the city, it stands to reason the lannisters would go along the north bank to the city. They would have no way of knowing how many men Stannis could get across in the time between the last report from their scouts and their arrival, an interval of more than half a day. In such circumstances sending no men along the north could let Stannis get thousands over the river and maybe take the Red Keep.

[Chaircat Meow]

I fail to see how the provided quotes indicate that none of the Tywin/Tyrell hosts arrived on the north bank. When Tyrion's chapter ends the bridge of ships broke apart and he was much further east of where Tywin's host would have arrived. So I don't see how any of the quotes preclude a host on the northern bank.

Also the fighting seen by Tyrion was likely the arrival of the van under Garlan, which could have arrived a little while before Tywin's men on the opposite bank. They would have been marching separately for half a day (split by the river) and one bit of the army may have gotten some way in advance of the other.