Sympathy for the Devil? Cersei and Gender

[butterbumps!]

I think nearly everyone agrees that Cersei is not a feminist. There's a distinction, however, between calling someone a "feminist" versus a "feminist character."

A "feminist character" is a character whose existence in the text serves to bring to light feminist issues, which Cersei's character most certainly does-- in fact, her decision to choose the father of her children despite the laws of succession that forbid this is a feminist issue that frames the entire story. Through Cersei, we also get commentary about how gender is a mere construct (when she talks about the differences between her and Jaime), and her arc is rife with her frustrations over not being taken as seriously as a man, which she attributes solely to gender.

The point is that Cersei can be called a "feminist character" because her arc does call into question the gender issues within the context of the story quite clearly. However, she's obviously not a feminist, and in fact, "misogynist" is a better term to describe her.

Although her struggles against the patriarchy may be seen as a facet to sympathize with, her reactions to it are not commendable, nor is her attitude: she wants to be at the top of the very system that served to oppress her. I do not endorse her behavior, especially as it pertains to her treatment of other women and continuation of the very system she feels so oppressed by.

I think that, given both Cersei's personal actions as well as the fact that she is in opposition to some more sympathetic characters, we, as readers, gloss over the gender issues she faces. By NO means do I think that any oppression she faces due to gender is reason to absolve the immorality of her subsequent actions, and for the record, I do find her extremely objectionable. Still, she faces considerable obstacles as a female in power, and I think these obstacles deserve a closer examination, and perhaps even an appreciation, even if her reactions to them are categorically wrong.

[WinterKing]

You are right, but I fear that many people.blinded by Cercei-hate, will not understand what you mean.

EDIT:Forgot to add that your analysis was perfect.

[E-Ro]

Good post bumps, it makes this issue a bit clearer to me. I was kind of confused about wtf the difference between a "feminist" and a "feminist character" was but i understand now. And I completely agree. Thanks for this, and I hope it goes well!

[Lord Reaver]

By that line of reasoning, pretty much every character in the books is a "feminist character". Tywin is one for illustrating how the patriarchal power system forces women into marriages etc. etc.

Everyone who exists in a socio-economical power system (aka. a society), which would mean pretty much everyone has to relate to that system, and as such may be viewed as "describing" that system.

As such, it makes little sense to define the characters within that system as representatives of said system, rather one must see how their actions relate to the system. If they act according to the guidelines put forth, one can claim them as proponents, and otherwise opponents.

Cersei, in relation to a "medieval-like" patriarchal power system as the one described in the books has very few traits of someone who opposes the system. And even those actions are done "in the sly", which to me lessens any possible impact it might have on weakening the system. Her decision to choose the father of her children is expressly NOT publicized (for very obvious reasons, I'll grant).

On the contrary, most of her actions follow the traditional lines (acting through a male, assasination etc.) expected by females in said system, in essence she is playing the role of "bad female" in the patriarchal power system, or if one were to use a more colloquial term, she's a "useful fool" for the system. Having enemy figures is essential to any system of power, and Cersei is so far doing a masterful job of providing just such a figure for anyone supporting the power system to point at and go: "Look what happens when evil, scheming women get power".

In conclusion; To me, Cersei has done much more to strengthen the existing power structure than she has done to weaken it, nor can she be considered to describe the system in any degree more than most other characters. By any definition then, calling her "feminist" is incorrect.

[conon394]

I would differ Cersi is oppressed by the System - sure, but I think its to simplistic to just construct it has a gender issue. I would argue Samwell is just as oppressed if not more so.

So whats her beef - an arranged marriage that kind of the norm for anyone born at her status. Oh if was not a women I could rule - but even as a man she woulds only be the second son of three and its only the somewhat to be frank artificial happenstance of Jamie as Kingsguard and Tyrion as Dwarf that makes a nominal Cersi as second son a person who would have the power she craves.

Tywin is one for illustrating how the patriarchal power system forces women into marriages etc. etc.

Pretty much every noble is forced into marriage and in general likely every small folk as well - the issues might not be big but keeping a shared water right might just mean "boy you are going to marry so and so" or" this is the best apprenticeship I could get have fun being a net maker...".

"Look what happens when evil, scheming women get power".

I don't really see that so much as just looks what happens when a bitter self centered short sighted person gets into power.

[LyannaStargaryen]

I would differ Cersi is oppressed by the System - sure, but I think its to simplistic to just construct it has a gender issue. I would argue Samwell is just as oppressed if not more so.

So whats her beef - an arranged marriage that kind of the norm for anyone born at her status. Oh if was not a women I could rule - but even as a man she woulds only be the second son of three and its only the somewhat to be frank artificial happenstance of Jamie as Kingsguard and Tyrion as Dwarf that makes a nominal Cersi as second son a person who would have the power she craves.

Pretty much every noble is forced into marriage and in general likely every small folk as well - the issues might not be big but keeping a shared water right might just mean "boy you are going to marry so and so" or" this is the best apprenticeship I could get have fun being a net maker...".

No, Cersei is the firstborn, so she would be Tywin's heir and heir to Casterly Rock had she been a boy. Jaime was the second born twin, hence why he is eligible as much as Tyrion in Cersei's Maggy the Frog valonqr prophecy.

[butterbumps!]

By that line of reasoning, pretty much every character in the books is a "feminist character". Tywin is one for illustrating how the patriarchal power system forces women into marriages etc. etc.

No, not exactly. Cersei pretty singularly reveals thoughts about the construct of gender, how gender operates within systems of power, and questions the role of gender in ways that most of the other characters do not. It's central to her arc, and her decision to choose the father of her children instigated most of the events of the series. I don't think she's the only "feminist character," but her arc does call gender issues into question more clearly and persistently than many other characters.

Everyone who exists in a socio-economical power system (aka. a society), which would mean pretty much everyone has to relate to that system, and as such may be viewed as "describing" that system.

As such, it makes little sense to define the characters within that system as representatives of said system, rather one must see how their actions relate to the system. If they act according to the guidelines put forth, one can claim them as proponents, and otherwise opponents.

I'm not arguing that she's the only one who does this, or the only "feminist character." I'm responding to what I consider is a facet of the story that I think we tend to gloss over with Cersei in particular because she's so incredibly objectionable in the way she handles it. All of the female characters deal with this system. Cersei is the character who reacts to it in perhaps the most nefarious way, yet she's also the character that brings these issues into greatest relief, imo. Just because other characters touch on these issues doesn't mean that a discussion focused on Cersei shouldn't occur.

Cersei, in relation to a "medieval-like" patriarchal power system as the one described in the books has very few traits of someone who opposes the system. And even those actions are done "in the sly", which to me lessens any possible impact it might have on weakening the system. Her decision to choose the father of her children is expressly NOT publicized (for very obvious reasons, I'll grant).

Which is extremely interesting to explore in its various facets, no? To locate precisely where the system creates obstacles for her as a women, acknowledge the obstacle, then look at the way she handles the obstacle.

On the contrary, most of her actions follow the traditional lines (acting through a male, assasination etc.) expected by females in said system, in essence she is playing the role of "bad female" in the patriarchal power system, or if one were to use a more colloquial term, she's a "useful fool" for the system. Having "enemy figures" is essential to any system of power, and Cersei is so far doing a masterful job of providing just such a figure for anyone supporting the power system to point at and go: "Look what happens when evil, scheming women get power".

I don't think anyone would disagree with the gist of this.

In conclusion then, to me, Cersei has done much more to strengthen the existing power structure than she has done to weaken it, nor can she be considered to describe the system in any degree more than most other characters. By any definition then, calling her "feminist" is incorrect.

Except I decidedly didn't call her a feminist. I called her a character that brings to light feminist/ gender issues.

[Lord Reaver]

I don't really see that so much as just looks what happens when a bitter self centered short sighted person gets into power.

But you are a reader, and as such have a heck of a lot more insight than most people "inside" the story would.

[StannisBamfatheon]

Cersei does indeed face many obstacles because of her gender, that's indisputable. And in turn her character brings up feminist issues for sure, including a highly patriarchal society that oppresses nearly all women.

HOWEVER.

Her reactions/decisions in response to said conflicts is universally negative. Her decisions are myopic, neurotic, selfish, dangerous, and most of all stupid. Cersei-hate IMO is well justified. And her constant delusions of grandeur, inflated sense of self worth, and downright despicable character inhibit me from ever feeling anything remotely close to sympathy.

[conon394]

OK good call on that I got that mixed up, but the fact remains the chains of duty and nature of society , etc would still not give her the power she thinks she does not have.

[butterbumps!]

I would differ Cersi is oppressed by the System - sure, but I think its to simplistic to just construct it has a gender issue. I would argue Samwell is just as oppressed if not more so.

There aren't too many characters in the story who are not oppressed by the system in some capacity. I don't see why we can't focus on one character to discuss the sort of oppression they face, as well as their subsequent response to that oppression.

[E-Ro]

Cersei does indeed face many obstacles because of her gender, that's indisputable. And in turn her character brings up feminist issues for sure, including a highly patriarchal society that oppresses nearly all women.

HOWEVER.

Her reactions/decisions in response to said conflicts is universally negative. Her decisions are myopic, neurotic, selfish, dangerous, and most of all stupid. Cersei-hate IMO is well justified. And her constant delusions of grandeur, inflated sense of self worth, and downright despicable character inhibit me from ever feeling anything remotely close to sympathy.

Well, I dont think anyone wants you to feel sympathy for her, brah. I think what people are saying is that cersei is a useful character for looking at and analyzing the issues of womens rights in westeros, and she helps view the system in a different light.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I don't think that Cersei wants to change the patriarchal society, she just wants to be on top of it. She doesn't think "Women struggle because of their gender," she thinks "I struggle because I'm a woman."

This tells you a lot about her character.

[Winter's Knight]

Bless your pink, furry heart Bumps.

I noticed (yet another) similarity between Tyrion and Cersei: both of them, while acknowledging how badly the patriarchy treats them, still strive to become the patriarchy, rather than try and destroy the oppressive system to begin with. They both do their best to win the approval and admiration of the very society that oppresses them. In Tyrion's case this bus characterized perfectly in his relationship with his father, the combined resentment and hero worship.

I'm having trouble expressing my point...

[WinterKing]

I hate Cercei as much as the next one, but her arc does show us the opressions a woman suffers in a medieval society.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

in fact, her decision to choose the father of her children despite the laws of succession that forbid this is a feminist issue that frames the entire story.

I think that, given both Cersei's personal actions as well as the fact that she is in opposition to some more sympathetic characters, we, as readers, gloss over the gender issues she faces. By NO means do I think that any oppression she faces due to gender is reason to absolve the immorality of her subsequent actions, and for the record, I do find her extremely objectionable. Still, she faces considerable obstacles as a female in power, and I think these obstacles deserve a closer examination, and perhaps even an appreciation, even if her reactions to them are categorically wrong.

While I agree that Cersei faces obstacles based solely on her gender, her choosing the father of children is a bigger thing than just exercising her power and agency. The fact that her actions, which are based on purely selfish reasons, affect all of Westeros are different than a woman saying I am allowed to choose. She wanted to be queen and choose it. She wanted to marry Robert. Fair enough things were not want she expected but that doesn't mean as a woman she has the right to commit fraud. I think we need to be clear about gender issues and personal issues.

[E-Ro]

Bless your pink, furry heart Bumps.

I noticed (yet another) similarity between Tyrion and Cersei: both of them, while acknowledging how badly the patriarchy treats them, still strive to become the patriarchy, rather than try and destroy the oppressive system to begin with. They both do their best to win the approval and admiration of the very society that oppresses them. In Tyrion's case this bus characterized perfectly in his relationship with his father, the combined resentment and hero worship.

I'm having trouble expressing my point...

:agree:

[E-Ro]

While I agree that Cersei faces obstacles based solely on her gender, her choosing the father of children is a bigger thing than just exercising her power and agency. The fact that her actions, which are based on purely selfish reasons, affect all of Westeros are different than a woman saying I am allowed to choose. She wanted to be queen and choose it. She wanted to marry Robert. Fair enough things were not want she expected but that doesn't mean as a woman she has the right to commit fraud. I think we need to be clear about gender issues and personal issues.

She didnt choose to be queen, nor did she choose to marry robert. Those were her fathers decisions.

[conon394]

But you are a reader, and as such have a heck of a lot more insight than most people "inside" the story would.

But while I agree there is Patriarchal system in place in Westeros, at the same time it is clear noble women can wield power when circumstances allow and we have seen many of those small and moderately large. On Bear island for example.

Cersi problem is that is wound so tight that when she does maneuver to get the very real power she can wield as Regent she botches so badly nobody trusts her - not her family, not her allies etc. Now obviously GRRM is writing a story so she does what he wants and yes you can read her as the Evil Queen, but since he also many examples of ruling noble women great and small (and even noble women who are known to be easy but still get married etc) I think its difficult say could not have had all the things she would have liked to have had.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

No, not exactly. Cersei pretty singularly reveals thoughts about the construct of gender, how gender operates within systems of power, and questions the role of gender in ways that most of the other characters do not.

I disagree that Cersei singularly reveals how gender operates within the systems of power. I think most of the women in Westeros do that. The Queen of Thorns shows how a woman can wield power in Westeros' system, as does Catelyn, and Asha. They each show how women nagivgagte the system of Westeros in order to get or not get what they want. Their gender is as much of an obstacle for all of them. Even the Queen of Thorns, arguably the head of the Tyrell clan must stand behind her son, in the eyes of the public.