What if Cersei loses her trial?

[Daena the Defiant]

Hmm. I have a question ?

There has to be a crone, a mother and a maiden in the judge, right ? Tyene is none of them. So how can she be a judge ?

When Doran sent off the Sand Snakes, Tyene was given the orders to go inflitrate the High Septon's inner circle. I can only assume that she will a) take holy orders or B] impersonate a high ranking septa. Since we know that there various orders of devotion among the septons (like an order dedicated to the Smith), and we know that are orders of septas called White and Blue Septas, I suspect that there might be a third, and each of them will represent an order of devotion to the Maiden (white), Mother (blue) and Crone (probably either grey or brown).

[Lion of Judah]

The only way Tommens' parentage will be questioned at this point is if Lancel says something to Theodan. The people who matter already know the truth about Cersei and Jamie and their children, they just don't care.

[ckongo]

Maybe it's too obvious to be true, but I do think The Gravedigger/Sandor is totally set up to champion the Faith against UnGregor.

There's the brother hate thing going on, that Sandor is now under the Faith, that he's rejected violence but will be asked by the Faith to be violent one last time, and that it will reprise his trial by combat vs Beric.

It would be huge redemption, but a tad too neat a bow tied to his storyline.

If Sandor is alive, it seems he is in no position to be fighting anyone. The figure was limping in AFFC. And I thought the implication was that he put that life behind him by "burying the hound." Fighting Gregor now (undead or alive) just seems to be bringing that back to the surface.

[Lord Flashheart]

If Sandor is alive, it seems he is in no position to be fighting anyone. The figure was limping in AFFC. And I thought the implication was that he put that life behind him by "burying the hound." Fighting Gregor now (undead or alive) just seems to be bringing that back to the surface.

The Hound may be dead, but that doesn't mean that Sandor Clegane will never wield a sword again. Now his killing will be for the gods instead of for shits a gigs.

[Eating My Wings]

Unfortunately, the HS doesn't seem to like Stan very much, so once Tom's parentage is revealed, the Church will most likely support Aegon.

[Toxspecific]

Well the High Septon does, like so many on these forums, think Stannis worships the red god so he won't pass the crown to Stannis after finding out that Tommen is born of incest.

[Downright Daario]

Well the High Septon does, like so many on these forums, think Stannis worships the red god so he won't pass the crown to Stannis after finding out that Tommen is born of incest.

Wait, what? There are people here who think Stannis does not worship R'hllor?

[g.o.d]

No one stands a realistic change against Robert Strong, bearing in mind that he probably doesn't feel pain, that poison probably doesn't work, that he probably doesn't even have vital organs.

I think the only thing which can kill him would be fire. It would be irony that Sandor will kill his undead brother using fire

[thecryptile]

I think the only thing which can kill him would be fire. It would be irony that Sandor will kill his undead brother using fire

my thoughts exactly... he could come at Strong with his blade aflame like Thoros of Myr

[Thor Odinson]

If you're referring to the Blackwater, I doubt he would have impregnated her with a shadow baby in that situation.

I mean embracing her in a figurative sense, not literally. I.E. If he'd known that the Faith of the Seven might one day drop the Iron Throne in his lap then he would've told her to take a hike when she first showed up.

[Toxspecific]

I don't believe he's exactly agnostic. He recognizes there's some "power" in R'hllor, and he believes in that "power" to some extend because sometimes and somehow he makes some decisions based on the flames. On the other hand, when it comes to the Seven he denies their power, and refuses their existance. I think he is rather a very passive believer, shall we say?

I don't think you need to believe in the Old Gods to believe in the Others. Everybody says "the Others take you!" afterall. And to be honest when people have witnessed and told you about vengeful zombies and icy almost invincible blue-eyed whatever they are beings, then I don't think you need to believe in any God to believe they exist.

Btw I will join your For E-Ro! cause/movement/whatever you call it, may I?

Because he hasn't seen any proof of the Seven's Powers. They have none. (; And he acknowledges Rhllor, he doesn't necessarily worship Rhllor. And 'the Others take you!' is a common and casual saying, just like atheists saying 'Oh my God!'.

And why yes, of course you may :)

[Ser Cookie Monster]

Because he hasn't seen any proof of the Seven's Powers. They have none. (; And he acknowledges Rhllor, he doesn't necessarily worship Rhllor. And 'the Others take you!' is a common and casual saying, just like atheists saying 'Oh my God!'.

And why yes, of course you may :)

But Stannis is not only "using" R'hllor, he is also "giving" him something. He gives R'hllor sacrifices through the men he executes, and he puts some of his trust and faith in R'hllor's powers. Stannis is worshiping him, he is just not carzy about him. I believe Stannis worships R'hllor, and there's nothing wrong with it IMO :P

But why don't they just say "Seven Hells!"? Besides, from the way I see it, the Others are not seen as something specifically and only related with the Old Gods. They are seen as these monsters that apparently "existed" long time ago, and now are just used to scare little kids. Kind of like the monster inside the closet for us.

But anyways, I think we got a little bit off-topic. :P

[Toxspecific]

But Stannis is not only "using" R'hllor, he is also "giving" him something. He gives R'hllor sacrifices through the men he executes, and he puts some of his trust and faith in R'hllor's powers. Stannis is worshiping him, he is just not carzy about him. I believe Stannis worships R'hllor, and there's nothing wrong with it IMO :P

But why don't they just say "Seven Hells!"? Besides, from the way I see it, the Others are not seen as something specifically and only related with the Old Gods. They are seen as these monsters that apparently "existed" long time ago, and now are just used to scare little kids. Kind of like the monster inside the closet for us.

But anyways, I think we got a little bit off-topic. :P

Stannis isn't worshipping him. He's feeding a beast so that the beast helps him. Doesn't mean he worships said beast.

[Downright Daario]

Stannis isn't worshipping him. He's feeding a beast so that the beast helps him. Doesn't mean he worships said beast.

From wikipedia "Worship is an act of religious devotion usually directed towards a deity.".

The definition of devotion according Merriam-Webster "a : religious fervor : piety

b : an act of prayer or private worship —usually used in plural

c : a religious exercise or practice other than the regular corporate worship of a congregation"

I understand, Stannis worshiping a god that demands people to be burned alive does not mean he is "The perfect king' That a lot of Stan Stans want him to be. But what is the leeches but a prayer and a offering to R'hllor to help Stannis and smite his enemies, or when Mel burns Lord Sunglass and Stannis does nothing or when Stannis burns the seven at DragonStone so that he could create lightbringer?

[Kahl Trollo]

Something I'm confused about: wouldn't the Tyrells' relation to the royalty be deemed invalid if Cersei's children are revealed as illegitimate? If Tommen (and Joff) weren't legitimate Kings of the Baratheon line, then Margaery was never nor could ever have been Queen by marrying Joffrey or Tommen. I suppose the Tyrells could take the throne by force and name it "right of conquest" but would anyone else ally themselves to them?

In any case, two things in my eyes are preventing Cersei from ever losing that trial. And they are Varys and Robert Strong.

Newp - not confused.

It's in no ones interests for Cersei to lose this trial. I think that's why it's a trial by combat - easier for them to control the outcome. This doesn't mean she WILL win - if she loses, everyone currently holding position in Kings Landing is up shit creek with a turd for a paddle.

[JMJ]

If Sandor is alive, it seems he is in no position to be fighting anyone. The figure was limping in AFFC. And I thought the implication was that he put that life behind him by "burying the hound." Fighting Gregor now (undead or alive) just seems to be bringing that back to the surface.

Exactly why this would be happening. Sandor has renounced fighting, but this will be for the 7 gods, and it will re-stir all those internal issues he has with his brother. It's a bit like "Unforgiven", but I think this will work.

[tze]

I suspect that Margaery will be exonerated. All the confessions of her adultery are very suspect and her real 'religious' crime is that she participated in the Maiden's Day rites while not being an actual virgin (although she insists that she is).

Profaning the Maiden's Day rites is actually the one charge I don't think was ever formally leveled against Margaery:

The septa said, “Megga Tyrell and Elinor Tyrell stand accused of lewdness, fornication, and conspiracy to commit high treason. Alla Tyrell has been charged with witnessing their shame and helping them conceal it. All this Queen Margaery has also been accused of, as well as adultery and high treason.”

Cersei's inwardly gleeful about the idea of Margaery having profaned the Maiden's Day rites, but I can't find any instance of anybody mentioning that as an actual unique charge.

And while Margaery's adultery case was pretty weak initially, the death of Pycelle makes the issue far murkier. Pycelle was the primary witness against her, the only one I think who hadn't recanted (or had his general reliability called into question)---and he mysteriously dies right before the trial? That's going to look pretty suspicious. From the Faith's perspective, Cersei's guarded night and day by their own members, so she had no opportunity to kill him. House Tyrell would look like pretty likely candidates for the murder, and if House Tyrell felt the need to take out the only actual witness against Margaery, that makes Margaery look far guiltier than she did before.

In any case, two things in my eyes are preventing Cersei from ever losing that trial. And they are Varys and Robert Strong.

The thing is, Varys really has no reason to want Cersei to win her trial. He killed Kevan because Kevan

"was threatening to undo all the queen's good work, to reconcile Highgarden and Casterly Rock, bind the Faith to your little king, unite the Seven Kingdoms under Tommen’s rule.”

But it doesn't follow from this that Varys needs to put Cersei back in power to achieve his goals, because he's already gotten all the benefit he needs from Cersei's incompetence (he killed Kevan to keep Kevan from fixing Cersei's preexisting mistakes, not because his plans are dependent on her making even more mistakes). Killing Kevan means Varys already has the "benefit" of a noted incompetent running things in King's Landing (Mace Tyrell), so he doesn't need Cersei in power to ensure that Aegon faces an incompetent foe. (And after the Walk of Shame, Kevan's death really can't "automatically" give Cersei a means to seize her former power regardless.) If Cersei wins her trial, Tommen's legitimacy as a trueborn son of Robert Baratheon is given religious approval, and Houses who want to maintain the status quo are given a perfect excuse to support the now-unambiguously-legitimate Tommen over the possibly-fake Aegon.

If Cersei loses her trial, however, the Faith declares Tommen and Myrcella full-Lannister bastards, who therefore have zero claim to the Iron Throne. That works entirely to Varys's benefit, because this way he circumvents the "Baratheon claim vs Targaryen claim" issue entirely---Aegon is now presenting the "only" possible legitimate claim that exists (which would allow even those predisposed to siding with the Baratheon claim to side with Aegon nonetheless, because it would come down to supporting someone with a potentially murky claim vs someone with no claim whatsoever).

Yes, it's true that the Baratheon claim would ostensibly pass to Stannis, but obviously there's no way in hell the Faith would be willing to support a R'hllor-follower, and Stannis's current position (slowly dying in a Northern winter) is going to make his death look like a fait accompli to all of the power-brokers in the south (and it's not like the Lannisters or Tyrells are ever going to be flocking to Stannis's banner even should Cersei lose her trial). From Varys's perspective, Aegon's invasion gains an awful lot from Cersei being declared guilty, because a guilty verdict means 1) Rather than being a legitimate Baratheon vs. a potentially-fake Targaryen, it becomes a clear Lannister bastard vs. an only potentially fake Targaryen---Aegon's legitimacy is in doubt in both scenarios, but only in the later case is Tommen's legitimacy completely kaput, something which definitely goes a long way toward mitigating Aegon's own legitimacy issues; 2) House Tyrell's position is weakened dramatically, as they can no longer securely wield power through Tommen; and 3) the Faith has no choice but to support Aegon (they can no longer prop up Tommen or even Myrcella, Stannis is a no-go, and Aegon's really the only choice left). (Obviously if Stannis re-enters the southern stage, parts of this calculus go out the window, but I really doubt that's looking likely to Varys right now.)

If Cersei wins, however, suddenly there's a chance the Faith will back Tommen over Aegon (the Faith itself, after all, would have confirmed his Baratheon legitimacy), House Tyrell can safely continue supporting and exercising power via Tommen, viable candidates (Tommen and potentially Myrcella) with powerful backers exist who present a clear alternative to Aegon, and the legitimacy factor swings in Tommen's favor.

The only way Tommens' parentage will be questioned at this point is if Lancel says something to Theodan. The people who matter already know the truth about Cersei and Jamie and their children, they just don't care.

Tommen's parentage has already been questioned by the High Septon, and is going to be one thing "decided" by Cersei's trial (if the High Septon didn't intend to address it, he wouldn't have had that charge brought in the first place). And while a number of powerful people may have privately decided they believe the incest story, the fact is that they publicly proceeded as if they didn't, and they didn't have to circumvent actual "proof" of the incest while throwing their support behind the Lannisters. This is a very public trial, and if Cersei loses, suddenly there's going to be supposedly objective "proof" that Cersei's kids aren't Baratheons. It's one thing to ignore slanderous stories, but another thing altogether to ignore the public verdict of a religious trial. A guilty verdict means people can no longer support Tommen (or Myrcella) by claiming the stories are lies---suddenly they'll have to claim a religious trial's verdict was incorrect, and that's much more difficult to do.

[Lord Damian]

I do not see Cercei losing her trial. Margeary on the other hand, yes, as a twist of fate. The books and now the show (Books are cannon, I know) are presenter her as a sort of "I will have my cake and eat it too" persona. Cersei though, will go down in a different manner (not being sexual here)

[Faint]

I think the point that should be remembered is that Varys stands a far greater chance of engineering a particular result in Margaery's trial than he does in Cersei's, owing, of course, to the very different nature of a trial-by-combat and a trial-by-judges. Moreover, Margaery losing her trial would be roughly equivalent to Cersei losing hers, in terms of the benefit it would confer on Aegon, since it too would effectively end the Lannister-Tyrell alliance.

That being said . . .

. . . A Tyrell army is marching on Storm's End in the second Arianne chapter from The Winds of Winter, a curious development on behalf of the Tyrells had either Cersei or Margaery lost their respective trials.

[krzeniux27]

Pretty self explanatory. I think Tommen's parentage will be questioned with an armed faith I believe the high Seton will sit on the iron throne at some point soon

First of all Cersei would be a head shorter. And its either the High Septon will sit on the throne or Aegon VI (Rhaegar's suppose to be son) would claim the throne.