Stannis and Renly

[mormont]

He had 100k men, he could have marched on KL with the intent of forcibly removing cersei, no need to declare himself king. You could of course make the argument that the tyrells would not have supported him in this case(i would disagree) but even if they don't, he would have the stormlords to take the city with.

Even if I were to accept the argument - I don't - your argument is actually that Renly could have had this power, if everything went as you suggest and he'd defeated the Lannisters. That's substantially different from actually having it. After all, by the same token, Stannis could have conquered King's Landing and had the power to remove Joff himself... but he never did. Equally, Renly never did have the power you suggest he had.

What you actually mean, I think, is that you disagree with Renly's strategy post-Ned's death. Which is fair enough, but a mile away from what you said.

[E-Ro]

Even if I were to accept the argument - I don't - your argument is actually that Renly could have had this power, if everything went as you suggest and he'd defeated the Lannisters. That's substantially different from actually having it. After all, by the same token, Stannis could have conquered King's Landing and had the power to remove Joff himself...

If renly had marched on KL as soon as possible with just the stormlords the city would have fallen. The only reason it held against stannis was because of the timely arrival of tywin and the tyrells. With renly married to marg the tyrells aren't attacking him, and if he moves fast instead of trying to starve out the people tywin would have been powerless to get there as hes engaged with robb and unable to break off at this point.

[Miodrag]

But it is them that Stannis needed to convince, not us. And he didn't even try.

No, if Stannis wanted to get Stormlands to support him as a king, he would have made his claim immediately after Robert's death and contacted their Lord Paramount - Renly. Instead, Stannis tried to convince the Storm Lords that they now owed their allegiance to him, Stannis, because Stormlands were "his by tight", even though they weren't. He tried to steal his brother's vassals and intended to use them to gain the crown.

And why? Because he was too petty to aknowledge Renly as the rightful Lord of Storm's End and ask him for his support.

You keep bringing up Stannis tactical shortcomings. Might be you're right about all of them. I didn't recognize that as the topic of discussion, but, OK, your remarks are valid. Never thought about Stannis trying to overtake Stormlords from Renly, and, to be honest, you just might be right in moral sense. But, it cuts both ways. Renly also acted amorally, in trying to overtake not only Stormlords, but all of Westeros from Stannis. Most probably, they were both in the wrong there.

Now, all things said, does this all means you'd support Stannis if you were in Renly's shoes? You'd wait for Stannis (some reasonable amount of time, of course) to show at your door and asks for your support?

[mormont]

If renly had marched on KL as soon as possible with just the stormlords the city would have fallen. The only reason it held against stannis was because of the timely arrival of tywin and the tyrells.

The only reason it was vulnerable to Stannis was because of Robb. Without him raising his banners and inflicting an unlikely series of defeats on Tywin, the Stormlords alone would have no chance of defeating the Lannisters. Given the information available to him at the time he declared, Renly could not reasonably have had any doubt that he needed the Tyrells to stand a chance of besting Tywin.

With renly married to marg the tyrells aren't attacking him

Why on earth is Renly married to Margaery if he's not making her Queen?

The best Renly could hope for in your scenario is that the Tyrells stay out of it for Loras' sake.

ETA - in any case this is all wandering far from the point. The point is, it's not really reasonable to criticise Renly for not taking the chance to replace Cersei when in fact, he never had the chance - only the potential to have the chance.

[E-Ro]

The only reason it was vulnerable to Stannis was because of Robb. Without him raising his banners and inflicting an unlikely series of defeats on Tywin, the Stormlords alone would have no chance of defeating the Lannisters. Given the information available to him at the time he declared, Renly could not reasonably have had any doubt that he needed the Tyrells to stand a chance of besting Tywin.

Irrc, robb and his northmen got news of renly declaring after the ww. In any case, renly knows the riverlords are fighting the westermen, and he knows the north is not going to take that, especially after ned is killed. He also does not have to defeat tywin, just take KL and he can do this without the tyrells, the city has about 6k men after over-staffing the city watch. If hes not trying to replace joff, he shouldnt have to battle tywin to the end, just kill cersei or force tywin to take her home, alternatively, he can hold her hostage and not let her rule. He has tons of options that dont involve declaring himself king.

Why on earth is Renly married to Margaery if he's not making her Queen?

The best Renly could hope for in your scenario is that the Tyrells stay out of it for Loras' sake.

Because renly is a great lord, has a great claim to the throne and is a very good match for marg either way. Especially with so few other candidates and the sansa/joff marriage still on for all intents and purposes.

ETA - in any case this is all wandering far from the point. The point is, it's not really reasonable to criticise Renly for not taking the chance to replace Cersei when in fact, he never had the chance - only the potential to have the chance.

Im not so sure about this, if stannis can almost take the city in clash despite being setback by bad weather then renly can take it by the time he gets to calling his stormlord banners. If he feels the tyrells wont support him in got he can go to the stormlands instead(loras would have been with him at this point) and then move on KL, it all would have happened allot faster then what actually transpired and gives renly an excellent chance of success.

My point, renly was by no means forced into declaring himself king, if all he wanted to do was remove cersei he could have tried to, and would most likely have succeeded.

[Maia]

Now, all things said, does this all means you'd support Stannis if you were in Renly's shoes? You'd wait for Stannis (some reasonable amount of time, of course) to show at your door and asks for your support?

There were at least a couple of months between Robert's death and Robb and Renly proclaiming themselves. Stannis did have a "reasonable amount of time" to ask Renly and Robb for their support. He didn't. What were they supposed to do?! Proclaim for Stannis, even though, for all they knew, he intended to support Joffrey and Cersei?

We saw it with Robb, but the same was undoubtedly true with Renly - they needed to give their rebellions a final goal, an alternative on the throne. And as Stannis didn't offer himself in time, well...

If renly had marched on KL as soon as possible with just the stormlords the city would have fallen. The only reason it held against stannis was because of the timely arrival of tywin and the tyrells

Tywin was within the striking distance of the city until he went west. If Renly had quickly marched on KL with just the stormlords, Tywin would have crushed him against the walls of the city. In fact, Tywin was waiting for it.

Renly also lacked the fleet that Stannis used to attack KL. The army needed to be ferried across the Blackwater, no?

[E-Ro]

Tywin was within the striking distance of the city until he went west. If Renly had quickly marched on KL with just the stormlords, Tywin would have crushed him against the walls of the city. In fact, Tywin was waiting for it.

Renly also lacked the fleet that Stannis used to attack KL. The army needed to be ferried across the Blackwater, no?

No, at this point in time tywin was not in fact within striking distance of kl, he was at the green fork busy with riverlords.Even when he was at hh stannis would have taken the city if a freak storm had not slowed him down. Even if he had been close by, it is by no means certain he beats renly, renly would have the edge in men and tywins men would have just been through a forced march, it would have been close. Chances are that renly would have taken the city before tywin chows up anyway.

Nope, a fleet is not necessary, Stannis chose to use his fleet to help assault the city, but i was not required. This also assumes renly does not, upon hearing stannis news of the bastards, declare for his brother, since in your opinion, he didn't want to be king and was perfectly fine with just removing cersei.

[mrunderhill]

Not exactly: I'm arguing that even if they knew (as they probably did) that dark hair is usually dominant over blonde, not understanding the mechanics means that they can't be certain that a dominant trait is always dominant. They don't know the rules.

Absent that information, they need some solid evidence: evidence Stannis apparently had, but makes surprisingly little of, in the end.

I agree with that too. They don't know how rules, but even today the blonde gene can be passed down many dark haired generations for over a hundred of years and then come up again. I have seen many cases of kids having blond hair, no question of the parent, despite me also knowing the family have dark hair going back over a 100 years.

Stannis had solid evidence, but he was furious with Renly. I mention before, but if Renly had been fighting for Joffrey, then Stannis probably would have presented him with all the evidence he had.

[Miodrag]

There were at least a couple of months between Robert's death and Robb and Renly proclaiming themselves. Stannis did have a "reasonable amount of time" to ask Renly and Robb for their support. He didn't. What were they supposed to do?! Proclaim for Stannis, even though, for all they knew, he intended to support Joffrey and Cersei?

We saw it with Robb, but the same was undoubtedly true with Renly - they needed to give their rebellions a final goal, an alternative on the throne. And as Stannis didn't offer himself in time, well...

First, when Robb was proclaimed King in The North, Renly already proclaimed himself the king of Westeros, so it doesn't have to be that "at least a couple of months" passed. As I can remember, Renly fled KL as soon as Robert died. Now, let's speculate a little. Where did Renly go? To Storms End, where everybody, Stannis included, can easily find him? No, he went to High Garden, which Stannis wasn't necessarily aware of. So what, Stannis has to run after Renly across Westeros to ask his support?! Why the fuck would he do that?!

And, why didn't Renly go to Stannis? What, he didn't know where his older brother is? Of course he knew, but he didn't bother to go to him.

Now, I don't think Renly is that guilty. First, you may be right, perhaps he was semi-forced to proclaim himself a king, just like Robb was. And, as far as he knew, he wasn't taking the crown from Stannis, he was taking it from Joff and Cersei. When Cat told him about twincest and he realized Stannis was the rightful heir, well, it was maybe already too late to go back. But, I don't see some explicit Stannis guilt over what happened, either. Maybe he waited too long, but maybe he didn't. Maybe Renly declared himself king before Stannis even got the news of Robert's and Ned's death. It's one of those situations in which one thing lead to another, but we just don't know what was the first, initial thing. And even if we find out, I don't think it will prove nothing more than both brothers miscalculated. It really doesn't have to be nastier than that in it's root. And their clash is only more tragic because of that.

Again, that's Renly, with as much as he knew or didn't know. But, if you were in his shoes, but knowing about Lannisters' coup via twincest, what would you do regarding Stannis?

[Gannicus]

The evidence is that Stannis hasn't much time for the idea of single combat as a way of resolving battles: he snorts at the idea when challenged by Penrose. I'm 100% certain that he didn't consider the idea but reject it because Renly would never accept: he prefers to employ Mel's sorcery. Stannis is no Robert: he has no innate respect for this sort of display. He'd use it as a tactic only if he had no better alternative.

I agree he had a better alternative with Penrose. Good on Stannis for not taking the bait.

He didn't know how Renly would fall, and yes he put is trust in Mel. But the idea that Stannis is somehow a bitch for not challenging Renly is ridiculous. There is nothing to consider if he knew Renly would reject it.

Even if he's not Robert, Stannis doesn't lack for courage.

'As soon as'? He never had this power.

The only reason it was vulnerable to Stannis was because of Robb. Without him raising his banners and inflicting an unlikely series of defeats on Tywin, the Stormlords alone would have no chance of defeating the Lannisters. Given the information available to him at the time he declared, Renly could not reasonably have had any doubt that he needed the Tyrells to stand a chance of besting Tywin.

ETA - in any case this is all wandering far from the point. The point is, it's not really reasonable to criticise Renly for not taking the chance to replace Cersei when in fact, he never had the chance - only the potential to have the chance.

Renly had the ability to take control of KL with the power of the Stormlands and Tywin in the Riverlands. He could have done that without declaring himself king.

Why on earth is Renly married to Margaery if he's not making her Queen?

Ah, he's still the Lord of Stroms End whose son would likely inherit the IT. That's not bad.