Come Into My Castle: The Ways of Warfare in Westeros updated, and PSA regarding troop quality

[Ser Areo Mace]

I'm not so sure about that. There is a big difference in the amount of metal required for the different types. Although, you may be right about the ability to mass produce plate, because it's not so intricate to make. I think, for the richer regions, most common soldiers could afford at least a mail hauberk. Most nobles didn't wear full plate because it was too heavy to fight effectively in.

The biggest thing about Mail was the time it took to make a single shirt. Padded Jacks and Brigandines are a little more common then Hauberks. Full suits of armor made but best armorers were expensive, but you could get lower quality plate at the market.

That's definitely not true. Whenever I read articles on plate armour, they usually mention that especially high/late medieval European armour were light enough for men to run, jump and of course fight. Some could even do a handstand in their armours.

That men had to be lifted into their horses with a crane seems like a myth invented much later.

Yeah I watched a video of a guy in full plate running and hurdling four foot fences with relative ease. I think the lowering on knights on to horseback with a crane was started by the Laurence Olivier version of Henry V. But, I may be wrong on that one.

[Scipio Africanus]

Yeah I watched a video of a guy in full plate running and hurdling four foot fences with relative ease. I think the lowering on knights on to horseback with a crane was started by the Laurence Olivier version of Henry V. But, I may be wrong on that one.

Well I used to think that too as a kid because it usually was depicted that way in comics. ;)

But if you think about it, if armours were THAT heavy that people could barely move, and their horses were armoured as well, don't you think the horse would break his back just from lifting so much weight? Or at least collapse after taking a few steps?

Sight. Now I'm wondering how much a horse can carry...

[Frey Pie]

I have over time compiled a list of all the closest looks we get at westerosi men at arms and knights/heavy cavalry. In the past I have posted it in numerous different threads to attempt to dispel some myths on the way medieval European armies of the hundred year’s war and wars of the roses era worked. But, in my time across the narrow sea I figured I should make a thread about it. Something more intimate and in depth if you will. So, here it is.(btw if this goes well I may do one for essos, but the problem with essos is that it’s very different from anything I have ever read about, I wouldn’t be sure what real life forces to compare them to. But I wouldn’t mind taking a stab at it.)

I will start with this link, to an accurate and informative site on the quality of men that fought in the wars of the roses. http://www.wars-of-t...f_the_roses.htm So, the men that fought in medieval armies were by no means just random peasants rounded up and told to march off and fight. That is an extremely common misconception that has been disproven both irl and in grrms works. I use the wars of the roses as my example because that is the where grrms inspiration has come from. There is also a very good piece on Wikipedia about it, here This explains it better than I can, and its accurate.

Defence of the realm was especially important and most English people are believed to have placed great value on success in arms: hence, the king had to be seen as a competent warrior. A crucial point about the series of conflicts that came to be known as The Wars of the Roses was that the king did not maintain a standing army. Rather, he relied upon his nobles to furnish him with troops when necessary, so it was vital that he maintained good relations with aristocracy and gentry who, if provoked, might use their armed strength against him. It followed that the king was duty bound to prevent power struggles between the magnates, especially if these could impact the stability of the realm.

The Wars of the Roses were fought primarily by the great magnates of the landed aristocracy. These were the royal dukes, marquesses and earls who were relatively few in number; and a greater number of barons, knights and landed gentry. Besides the huge estates they controlled, many enhanced their wealth by investment in trade and expanded their influence through political marriage alliances. They were supported by armies of feudal retainers and tenants, sometimes with the aid of foreign mercenaries; this practice of controlling large numbers of paid men-at-arms was known as "maintenance". Besides the size of his private army, a nobleman's prestige was measured by his "affinity" (i.e., those bound by contract to serve him). The retainer who became a member of an affinity wore the nobleman's "livery" (a uniform and badge) and accompany him on military campaigns; in return, the nobleman would pay him a pension, provide protection and grant rewards such as land or a lucrative office.This unofficial system of "livery and maintenance" largely came about through the decline of feudalism in the wake of the Hundred Years War to be replaced by what some historians call "bastard feudalism" whereby the retainer did not serve the nobleman as a feudal vassal but as a liveried retainer under contract or indenture

Welcome back buddy!

Great post. Interestingly i think you may have answered something i was going to make a thread on. You talk about how the Monarch relied on his lords to field his army for him. It strikes me that the Great Houses of Westeros arent that great militarily. Where are the 5-6000 levies from House Stark? Where is House Tyrells numbers? Only the Lannisters seem to to have a large contingent of personal soldiers, but even that is dwarfed by other lords. So is this why? Is George comparing each Paramount to the Monarch, needing his lords to provide men for battle?

We never really here of House Starks or any other paramount houses men. What we get is 2300 Karstark men, fighting under their banners, under the Stark banner. Is this normal? Or an anomaly?

I doubt this. Looking that the Manderlys only brought 20 knights with them, the Karstarks could've never brought more it seems to me.

I'm not an expert but medieval knights were hugely expensive, not only because of their equipement but because they were 24/7 warriors who needed to be on the payrole of a lord. There was no central state to pay for standing armies. Which is why a lot of knights were 'bought' by allocating them land with peasants to work on it and generate income so they could afford their warrior lifestyle.

I suspect the majority of Nothern cavalry consisted retainers, squires, sergeants, archers and other warriors who had their own horses. In other words, medium or light cavalry.

I further suspect guys like Tywin and Lord Puff Fish had a higher percentage of true heavy cavalry (knights) with them, simply because they could afford more knights. The exception seems to be the Stormland army, which for some reason has a high percentage of knights despite that the region is poor. No idea why that is, but perhaps, looking at the Conningtons and how Davos got his promotions, maybe the Baratheons begot themselves more knights by dishing out land.

While i agree that the Reach and West would have a larger proportion of heavy cav, i think the majority of Robbs command was heavy cav. Manderly says in Dance that he has more heavy cav then any other Northern lord. This is i would think, down to the fact E-Ro pointed out-Northerners dont often become knights. IIRC Ramsays 600 are described as heavily armored (could be wrong here though)

[Barty]

I doubt this. Looking that the Manderlys only brought 20 knights with them, the Karstarks could've never brought more it seems to me.

I'm not an expert but medieval knights were hugely expensive, not only because of their equipement but because they were 24/7 warriors who needed to be on the payrole of a lord. There was no central state to pay for standing armies. Which is why a lot of knights were 'bought' by allocating them land with peasants to work on it and generate income so they could afford their warrior lifestyle.

I suspect the majority of Nothern cavalry consisted retainers, squires, sergeants, archers and other warriors who had their own horses. In other words, medium or light cavalry.

I further suspect guys like Tywin and Lord Puff Fish had a higher percentage of true heavy cavalry (knights) with them, simply because they could afford more knights. The exception seems to be the Stormland army, which for some reason has a high percentage of knights despite that the region is poor. No idea why that is, but perhaps, looking at the Conningtons and how Davos got his promotions, maybe the Baratheons begot themselves more knights by dishing out land.

The Manderlies brought 20 knights and 200 mounted lances - I'd assume this 200 was also heavy cavalry but not knights since they did not worship the seven. Plus Manderly also sent fewer footmen than Karstark(1300) - this is not because he is poorer than karstark but rather because he was holding back his strength.

[Frey Pie]

Well I used to think that too as a kid because it usually was depicted that way in comics. ;)

But if you think about it, if armours were THAT heavy that people could barely move, and their horses were armoured as well, don't you think the horse would break his back just from lifting so much weight? Or at least collapse after taking a few steps?

Sight. Now I'm wondering how much a horse can carry...

Quick google there said about 20% of its own weight, so were talking comfortably over 200 lbs in most cases. I think the horse is more discomforted by an unskilled rider, then a heavy one

[Ser Areo Mace]

Quick google there said about 20% of its own weight, so were talking comfortably over 200 lbs in most cases. I think the horse is more discomforted by an unskilled rider, then a heavy one

That just adds to the many reasons why the Dornish are light armor wearers, you know, besides the climate and stuff.

[Barty]

Quick google there said about 20% of its own weight, so were talking comfortably over 200 lbs in most cases. I think the horse is more discomforted by an unskilled rider, then a heavy one

Agreed, plus we also have to consider that most Knights would use warhorses - big and strong and trained from birth to carry the knight and armor, also terribly expensive.

[Frey Pie]

That just adds to the many reasons why the Dornish are light armor wearers, you know, besides the climate and stuff.

Which in turn, is a reason why they arent such an effective force away from home. You need to train to use heavy armour and become accustomed to it. Heavy armour is an advantage anywhere outside of the sun and sands of Dorne, but could be a major disadvantage in Dorne

[Scipio Africanus]

Quick google there said about 20% of its own weight, so were talking comfortably over 200 lbs in most cases. I think the horse is more discomforted by an unskilled rider, then a heavy one

I had to look this up because I use metric messures and weights.

An average male weighs around 163-183 lbs. Late medieval and Rennaissance armour weiged around 44 lbs. So yes a large warhorse could carry a fully armoured knight with equipement I suppose. ;)

[Frey Pie]

Agreed, plus we also have to consider that most Knights would use warhorses - big and strong and trained from birth to carry the knight and armor, also terribly expensive.

George seems somewhat aware of this, given the fact that anytime he mentions Gregor he mentions his horses are as big as draft horses. Stranger, Sandors horse, is also a standout as a huge horse. Heavier man=heavier armour=bigger horse

[Frey Pie]

I had to look this up because I use metric messures and weights.

An average male weighs around 163-183 lbs. Late medieval and Rennaissance armour weiged around 44 lbs. So yes a large warhorse could carry a fully armoured knight with equipement I suppose. ;)

An average male these days would be a fair bit heavier then 4-600 years ago, where bone density, height etc would have been far smaller, as far as i know

[Scipio Africanus]

An average male these days would be a fair bit heavier then 4-600 years ago, where bone density, height etc would have been far smaller, as far as i know

I guess?

Anywho...we've learned that plate armour was practicle on the battlefield. 40-45 lbs isn't so bad if the suite was well made. You would need a somewhat large and trained warhorse though.

Now all we need to do is figure out what percentage of cavalry was truely 'heavy' (knight or no) for each house and how much heavy cav each side deployed, and we're done. And of course how many members of heavy cav units fought in plate. ;)

[King Aerys the Just]

An average male these days would be a fair bit heavier then 4-600 years ago, where bone density, height etc would have been far smaller, as far as i know

Probably. I guess this is 21st century heavy cavalry http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Qr8MWBa2G60

Nice thread btw.

[Frey Pie]

I guess?

Anywho...we've learned that plate armour was practicle on the battlefield. 40-45 lbs isn't so bad if the suite was well made. You would need a somewhat large and trained warhorse though.

Now all we need to do is figure out what percentage of cavalry was truely 'heavy' (knight or no) for each house and how much heavy cav each side deployed, and we're done. And of course how many members of heavy cav units fought in plate. ;)

Probably. I guess this is 21st century heavy cavalry http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Qr8MWBa2G60

Nice thread btw.

As far as i know, the average human height is getting larger and larger. With better nutrition/ more food, and all the benefits of modern life, it stands to reason we are overall "bigger" people. Good luck with the rest ;)

[King Aerys the Just]

I guess?

Anywho...we've learned that plate armour was practicle on the battlefield. 40-45 lbs isn't so bad if the suite was well made. You would need a somewhat large and trained warhorse though.

Now all we need to do is figure out what percentage of cavalry was truely 'heavy' (knight or no) for each house and how much heavy cav each side deployed, and we're done. And of course how many members of heavy cav units fought in plate. ;)

For the Lannisters it is described pretty well in the OP. 4000 horse on the right flank which Tyrion describes as a "mailed fist of knights and heavy lances", plus 300 heavy horse with Ser Kevan and an additional 500 with Lord Tywin. Out of a total host of 20 000.

As far as i know, the average human height is getting larger and larger. With better nutrition/ more food, and all the benefits of modern life, it stands to reason we are overall "bigger" people. Good luck with the rest ;)

Yes, an inch or two more compared to the Middle Ages AFAIK. People were at their shortest in Europe during the 17th and 18th centuries.

[Sevumar]

There's not a lot in the text to support a high level of experience or training for most of the troops fielded by the majority of the nobles in the War of the Five Kings. Most of the passages you're quoting show pretty high levels of equipment and uniformity, which seem, at times, a bit beyond the capabilities of the Wars of the Roses period.

Although Dunk and Egg predate the main books of the series by nearly 100 years, the social and technological fundamentals of Westerosi society don't seem to have changed overly much. In The Sworn Sword, we get a look at what third-tier vassals would be able to muster for war. This varies from anything from a couple of hired hedge knights to six or eight knights and about a score of crossbowmen. This amount of variation among Lord Rowan's vassals means he'd have to do a lot of organization and evaluation to come up with something resembling a uniform force. Some portion of these would've trained and served together, but they may never have seen battle nor learned to fight as part of a large group.

The books are mostly silent on the topic of town or provincial militias, where most common soldiers would've received any training and experience they might have at arms. These kinds of militia do not appear to exist in most places, and in cities where we've seen a Watch or a City Guard, the men who comprise these forces are trained to police, not to wage war.

The sort of men featured in Meribald's story would've made up a significant portion of the levy forces led to war by the nobles of the realm. These would've been the able-bodied men of campaigning age, taken in the first gathering of levies for armies like Robb's. The uniformity of equipment that is occasionally mentioned in the story appears to have come from the armories of the bannermen called to war. We don't see a lot of evidence that common people maintain arms and armor of their own. It makes sense that the bulk of most armed forces are pikemen or spearmen, as those arms would be the easiest and cheapest to provide to a large body of men.

The Shield Islands are considered something of an anomaly, since the people of these islands were purposely armed and given military training in order to repel Ironborn raids. They have a system of watchtowers and procedures in place to support the defense of their homes and the mouth of the Mander. They seem to be the only real example we have of a populace organized, trained, and prepared for battle in any meaningful way.

[Wynter Manderly]

i forgot but i vaguely remember a comment about a soldier (might be roose's) was probably a capable soldier, who could kill and might even rape when the blood lust was on them or something like that then after the war would have no problem of returning back to life as a farmer.

[Frey Pie]

i forgot but i vaguely remember a comment about a soldier (might be roose's) was probably a capable soldier, who could kill and might even rape when the blood lust was on them or something like that then after the war would have no problem of returning back to life as a farmer.

Steelshanks Walton

[Florina Laufeyson]

"Born amidst salt and smoke, he rose again pulling the blade from his beloved Nissa. For he is E-Ro. He is Azor Ahai Reborn!"

So good to see you back with this fantastic OP. The pride i have. It swells...

I do have a question though about the apparent lack of actual siege weapons. Aside from the scorpions at King's Landing, Westeros seems to have little in the way of trebuchets, ballistae, and siege towers. This always struck me as odd. Ancient Rome were where ballistae came from....

[Djinn]

i forgot but i vaguely remember a comment about a soldier (might be roose's) was probably a capable soldier, who could kill and might even rape when the blood lust was on them or something like that then after the war would have no problem of returning back to life as a farmer.

Jaime commenting on Walton Steelshanks, Roose's right hand man.