Of Bowen and Alliser , Conspiracy and Mail-tampering

[bemused]

I've spouted bits of this on various threads but never really brought it all together, so I wanted to just re-examine the question of the connection between these two men and it's implications. It could be more important than we sometimes make allowances for. Going right back to AGoT, I think there are signs of an early affinity between them that has been easy to overlook.

We first encounter Thorne through Jon's POV, and though we notice the way he derides Jon , he derides his other charges too .. and we see that Jon , at this point , is naive , has unrealistic expectations and needs the dose of reality he recieves from Donal Noye. Consequently , it's all too easy to see the very familiar " tough drill sargeant with a hidden core of decency " in Thorne at the outset. Still , I'm always surprised at the number of people who still harbour some hope of this being a true impression of Thorne after reading the series through ADWD , because GRRM does take steps to disabuse us of the idea pretty quickly.

In Tyrion's chapter at the wall , we get the only factual information we have on Thorne's past. Whatever else we know or suspect comes through observing Thorne's behavior throughout the story. House Thorne is from the Crownlands and we learn that Thorne fought bravely in defense of King's Landing during Robert's Rebellion . ( O.K. , but all sorts of men - good or bad - can fight bravely .)... We also learn that when Tywin took the city , he gave Thorne ( and Jaremy Ryker ) the choice of the wall , or death on the spot. Only those options .... It's possible they might have been offered another choice if Robert or Ned had taken the city. Robert was known to pardon those who had fought bravely, if they bent the knee... So it would be understandable if Thorne and Ryker harboured a resentment of Tywin and Lannisters generally ... which we seem to see on the part of Thorne , but not on the part of Rykker , who willingly engages in banter with Tyrion.

Because we already have reason to trust in Tyrion's powers of observation, we ought to take note when he says , " Chip the ice off your eyes , my good sers. Ser Alliser Thorne should be mucking out your stables , not drilling your young warriors." ..

We see that LC Mormont had a low opinion of Thorne and Marsh , equally. He confides to Tyrion that he has no-one suitable to take up the "burden" of Lord Commander after him ... " - yet if I set it down , who will pick it up? Alliser Thorne ? Bowen Marsh ? I would have to be as blind as Maester Aemon not to see what they are. " ( GRRM's italics )

..Though Mormont may have a low opinion of the two for different reasons , the way he phrases it subtly couples them , makes them a pair. It doesn't demand our attention at the time , but for me , really resonates after reading through to ADwD.

And of course , even this early , the small-mindedness of Marsh is apparent . When , in response to some quite good natured ribbing from Tyrion , Thorne challenges him to a fight ,Tyrion comments that Thorne is lacking in humour... "Not so," objected the Lord Steward Bowen Marsh , a man as round and red as a pomegranate. " You ought to hear the droll names he gives the lads he trains. " .. We don't find them droll, and have to wonder ( or ought to ) about anyone who does... But Marsh doesn't seem to do much of note for some time in the story , so it's easy to forget about it.... The next thing that stood out to me , was Mance's certainty that his attack plan would work , once he learned Bowen had been left in charge of the wall. apparently , he doesn't think Bowen is any too bright .. and when Jon returns to the wall , and Donal Noye tells Jon of the hit and run sallies the wildlings have been mounting all along the wall , Jon says, " Feints. Mance wants us to spread ourselves thin, don't you see ?" ..then thinks , And Marsh has obliged him.

CB has one of only 3 gates on the wall , but what sort of contingent had Marsh left in defense?... 40-odd of the crippled, the infirm and boys still in training with , as castellan , Ser Wynton Stout , who'd served on the wall for 80 yrs, was forgetful and prone to drift off to sleep ...even though we're told Donal Noye was "hard-headed , tough , well seasoned in war ". Of course , Donal was a one armed blacksmith , and Wynton Stout was a Ser. So much for Bowen's judgement.

I'm trying to not make this too long ( yeah, good luck ;) ), so I won't dwell too much on the details of Thorne's oft discussed influence on Marsh during the choosing of the LC and Jon's early tenure as LC. I think they're pretty well established in everyone's mind, and we can refer to them as we go along , as needed.

I do want to recall Thorne's manipulation of Janos Slynt and that Thorne was clearly pressing him to execute Jon , feeding Slynt's anti-Stark sentiments ( " You know these Starks , my lord. " ) and inserting the idea that both Jon and Benjen were behind the mutiny against Mormont , and his subsequent murder ... also suggesting that Benjen had probably turned cloak and was with Mance. We never see Thorne interact with Benjen , but his insistence to drag in the name of a man Slynt never knew and who was generally presumed to be long dead , has always made me suspect that the viciousness Thorne always directed at Jon stemmed from a more inclusive and long standing hatred of Starks...Of course we can't know for certain , until more of his back-story is revealed, but I still feel a tingling in the antennae.

Seeing as Tywin is the one who took KL and sent Thorne to the wall , why is there not more of a display of hatred for the Lannisters ... and where does the Stark loathing come from? It's true , he doesn't react well to Tyrion at the wall or in KL , but Tyrion is the only Lannister we see him with , and part of Thorne's disdain for Tyrion's might be because he's a dwarf... It's a mystery.

When Mormont sent Thorne south with the severed hand, it was partly to separate him from Jon , but partly because Thorne had friends at court , who Mormont hoped might help in making people take the NW's plight more seriously... Who are these friends , I wonder ? You wouldn't think they'd be Lannisters ( Thorne resents his place at the wall , and considers his time there wasted .) ... Yet , he seems to act in support of Tywin's machinations, on his return... If he still , or ever considered himself a particular Targaryen loyalist , you'd think he would have displayed more closeness to Maester Aemon , in actions and attitudes...Mystery upon mystery... But back to Jon...

Following the failure of their plan to execute Jon , due to Maester Aemon's intervention, it's Thorne's idea to send Jon on the suicide mission to kill Mance. Jon recognizes his signature all over the plan and realizes that of the two, Thorne and Slynt , Thorne is by far the more dangerous.

From there , we see Thorne almost ... almost .. draw his sword on Jon during Slynt's downfall , and of course , we see his reaction when Jon sends him ranging. I've always thought his accusation that Jon intends to have him killed on the ranging betrays what he would do to Jon if their positions were reversed .. and very possibly foreshadows exactly what the conspirators had planned for Jon in the future. I've suspected that he might have been on hand to suggest the idea when Hardhome comes up , or that he planted the idea very forcefully before he left... And I admit , because of his previous attempts to end Jon's life ,I always read his " I'll be back , bastard. " as a threat , more than a promise , or simply a defiant determination to survive.

Bowen must always have disapproved of Mormont choosing Jon as his steward , judging by his reaction to Jon choosing Satin ( neither being " lads of good birth " ). We see no outward sign of this in AGoT, but we don't have a POV from Bowen , Mormont ,or Aemon to verify, and Bowen doesn't betray his objections publicly . Before the events of ADWD, Jon thinks Marsh is amiable enough.. All the same , I think his disapproval of Jon is a safe assumption. ... Added to this , we have Jon's observation that Bowen seems more fearful when he returns from the Shadow Tower. So , I've always had reservations about Bowen seeming to be the ring leader against Jon - consistently the most out-spoken , even using the word treason on occasion. This , in spite of having seen Jon's beheading of Slynt , which ought to have given a timid or fearful person pause..I question whether he would have been so bold without continual prompting and reinforcement .

When I first finished reading ADWD, right after it came out , I felt that Thorne might have been secretly back at the wall.There are a couple of options as to what route he could take - either through Eastwatch , after Pyke left , or through the Black Gate , now that everyone knows its there - my favourite being the Black Gate . Only Yarwick and his builders have been there, as far as we know. He makes excuses for not accepting help from Wildlings , or using Wun-Wun (without trying either. ) And though it may be speculation , I don't think it would be odd for Marsh to make trips over there , to assess it's liveability for Selyse, e.g. .. or to start stocking it. A person could , theoretically , hide out there , or be smuggled back to CB... Not speculation : It's noteworthy that Selyse and Bowen sometimes make very similar comments to Jon , and Selyse very suddenly gave up on her demands to inhabit the Nightfort asap. ...However ... none of this added up to more than a possibility to go along with my feelings of unease...at the time.

Then , on a re-read ,I noticed the makeshift sleeping quarters Sam discovered down in the wormways back in his first chapter of AFfC.. " it would be even better if he could sleep down here , in the cell he'd found half-hidden behind four chests full of loose pages that had gotten separated from the books they belonged to, ".. but as soon as he comes up to ground level, people begin talking to him about other things - among which , Jon tells him he'll be sending him to Oltown the next morning. Sam never uses the cell. Why did GRRM mention it ? No one else goes down there among the books. Clydas' eyes are weak . Jon is saving the research 'til Sam gets back... But Bowen and Wick know the wormways like the backs of their hands, as we observe in ADWD. That strengthens the possibility of Thorne being hidden at CB ,quite a bit , IMO. But that's not all...

In the matter of the pink letter , my earliest assumption was that it had been opened and perhaps edited, because of the smear of wax and Clydas' extreme fear...which suggested to me that he might have been coerced to open it. Bowen is his superior.. and I always thought all those "Bastard" epithets seemed most like Thorne because of the sneering tone. ..And while Bowen is not too scary , Thorne certainly is . He's made a career of bullying... On careful consideration, I didn't think it could be a complete forgery, though.Too many unknowns in the content.

As soon as I read the Theon gift chapter ( as soon as it was released ) I began to strongly favour Stannis as the author ( and I still do ) but , I thought , it still could have been opened and edited , and I'm finding myself more and more strongly drawn in that direction .

Part of what is really bringing this home to me again , is a recent post by a new poster here, Lady Arya's Song ( fresh eyes , gotta love 'em ), in which she (? ) points out what could be very telling parallels between Jaime's receipt of Cersei's letter ( earlier , therefore possible foreshadowing ), and Jon's receipt of the pink letter... Jaime's is delivered by a maester, Jon's by the man standing in for his maester. Both Clydas and the maester are nervous , apologetic and afraid.. In Jaime's case , we know it's because the maester opened the letter before giving it to Jaime ... It carries news that will be upsetting, and reveals things Jamie wouldn't want known ( Cersei's " I love you , I love you, I love you " )... In Jon's case ,the contents are also upsetting ( Stannis' defeat and death ) and reveal secrets ( Mance and the spearwives)... In Jaime's case the letter has been written by two people , Qyburn, followed by Cersei... and in Jon's case ?.. I now feel much more secure in the proposition - written by Stannis , added to by Thorne , or by Marsh on Thorne's directions... Thanks, LA'sS ! I read right past that Jaime letter without making the connection many a time .

I have more things to bring up on related topics that I feel fit very well with this , but this is getting too long , and I'll have to put them in a separate , but complementary thread.

[Knight Of Winter]

Gotta love threads like these :thumbsup: - quite perceptive reading, matching of various disconnected clues and well-written post.

Possibility that Bowen and Alliser are something more than simple, usual jerks is intriguing. And while I don't have time to comment more, I think it's possible you're onto something.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Thorne hated him, Jon had decided; of course, he hated the other boys even worse.

"That was a grievous error, Lord Snow," he said at last in the acid tones of an enemy.

In the blink of an eye, Jon had vaulted onto the table, dagger in his hand.(...) He lunged at Ser Alliser's face with the dagger..

Citations in order. Initially Jon was Ser Alliser's favorite. But he himself made an enemy out of him (with a bit of help from Tyrion). And he himself upped the stakes when he tried to murder Ser Alliser. It was Jon himself that brought it upon him.

Of course Ser Alliser distrusts him and want him to be executed - people tend to react that way if they're almost murdered by somebody.

[Mad Monkey]

You cut off the rest of that quote though, where it turns out that Jon was just trying to kill a fly that had landed on Ser Alliser's nose.

[WinterKing]

Excellent analysis!

[Nyrhex]

Thorne hated him, Jon had decided; of course, he hated the other boys even worse.

"That was a grievous error, Lord Snow," he said at last in the acid tones of an enemy.

In the blink of an eye, Jon had vaulted onto the table, dagger in his hand.(...) He lunged at Ser Alliser's face with the dagger..

Citations in order. Initially Jon was Ser Alliser's favorite. But he himself made an enemy out of him (with a bit of help from Tyrion). And he himself upped the stakes when he tried to murder Ser Alliser. It was Jon himself that brought it upon him.

Of course Ser Alliser distrusts him and want him to be executed - people tend to react that way if they're almost murdered by somebody.

Pretty much this ^^^

Thorne is there for the past 15 years. He is in the same position, while Benjen comes in and is shot up to first ranger because he is a Stark. Jon is made steward to Mormont and groomed to replace him. Again, a Stark. Of course there is going to be resentment.

Marsh is not as timid as portrayed. He fought the weeper and at the end of the battle had to be brought back on a litter. First stewrard, but still fought like the rest. Jon later thinks how Marsh left CB stocked with everything but men, but in fact it's Jon's failure to send word sooner that Marsh was even away. The Halfhand sends him to find out what the wildlings are up to, and Jon only gets away when it is too late.

[bemused]

:D :D

As to #3 & #6...

Of course ,Thorne had no reason to expect Jon would attack him . (Excuse me while I retrieve my eyes ,which have rolled right out of their sockets ).. A thirty - something man( or older?) ought to be above goading an emotionally distraught 14 yr. old into doing something rash.( And taking such obvious satisfaction in it. )

Jon was never his favourite. The man had no favourites , just some that were less fun to bully than others. He had no good opinion of any of them ,only disdain. At first , he used Jon to humiliate the others .. not even by praising Jon ,but by deprecating them , by comparison ... which a man of his experience would know put Jon in a dangerous situation with his peers ( Droll , no?).... He's supposed to be forging a brotherhood of fighting men, not a resentful bunch of rivals.

Thorne couldn't have been at the wall for much longer than Benjen , if at all. ( Maybe months, maybe a year? ) , and he wasn't ever going to make a good ranger because of his attitude ( which Mormont makes clear ).. nothing to do with Benjen. Nowhere is it implied that Benjen arrived at the wall and slotted right into the First Ranger position.. he was probably not much older than Jon when he arrived.

Thorne was a knight when he arrived, he was never in competition with Jon for the position for which Mormont , himself , chose Jon. There should have been no cause for resentment , there

That there was resentment is my point. It's way beyond the bounds of what is rational or understandable stemming from the situations we've seen. there's obviously some deeper cause that is yet to be explained.

Nope , I refuse to nibble at the claim of Jon's "failure" to send word sooner. Oh. Jon was to blame for Bowen's gullibility and poor judgement. I see... ;)

We don't know how well or poorly Marsh fought at the Shadow Tower.. or exactly how he was wounded. It's not said that he personally fought The Weeper. Whatever happened there , we know his ideas on facing conflict now are - seal the gates , sit tight and do nothing. What is that if not timid ? We know it's not wise .

[Osric]

excelent :thumbsup:

[Nyrhex]

Thorne couldn't have been at the wall for much longer than Benjen , if at all. ( Maybe months, maybe a year? ) , and he wasn't ever going to make a good ranger because of his attitude ( which Mormont makes clear ).. nothing to do with Benjen. Nowhere is it implied that Benjen arrived at the wall and slotted right into the First Ranger position.. he was probably not much older than Jon when he arrived.

Thorne was a knight when he arrived, he was never in competition with Jon for the position for which Mormont , himself , chose Jon. There should have been no cause for resentment ,

That there was resentment is my point. It's way beyond the bounds of what is rational or understandable stemming from the situations we've seen. there's obviously some deeper cause that is yet to be explained.there

benjen is younger then him, Throne arrives first, Mormot and Benjen arrive later. A Northman arrives after him, gets elected LC. A Northman and a Stark arrives later, and even younger then him and less esperioanced in war, get to be first ranger. Another Stark - Jon, bastard of Winterfell, arrives and becomes Mormont's favourite and is groomed to replace him. Nope, no pattern that I can see...

Throne is'nt pissy that he can't be Mormont's steward. He is pissy that he sees a clear preferance of Northmen, and how he is being wated in the same job for 15 years, only to be ignored time and again.

Nope , I refuse to nibble at the claim of Jon's "failure" to send word sooner. Oh. Jon was to blame for Bowen's gullibility and poor judgement. I see... ;)

We don't know how well or poorly Marsh fought at the Shadow Tower.. or exactly how he was wounded. It's not said that he personally fought The Weeper. Whatever happened there , we know his ideas on facing conflict now are - seal the gates , sit tight and do nothing. What is that if not timid ? We know it's not wise .

So not a single Black Brother is wise?

Jon was sent to scout ahead by Mormont. Halfhand told him to find what the Wildlings are doing. Mormont had bad judgement whe he went with 300 men against 100,000 wildlings and Others? No, he had no idea what he is faci. Did Marsh do wrong when he thought that groups of hundreds of wildlings are a threat? No, he had no idea that there were more, and those were way larger groups then usual. Jon only reaches CB before the attak, when it's nearly too late. His failure to run earlier meant that CB had no idea of what is coming for them from the north, and very little warning of what is coming from the south.

And sealing the gates and sitting tight is exaclty what everyone was doing. Jon calls it out - we have all these arrows and rocks that Marsh placed for a siege, we have the Wall, we can stand here and throw stuff at people who can't shoot back. Noye kills the giant king, and his body seals the gate.

Is Noye timid and fearful? Is Jon? No? Then why do you claim that Marsh is? Marsh is a steward and still led the defense against the Wildlings. The fact that he faced better equiped wildlings then usual, and that he was wounded so bad he had to be carried away in as litter, suggest that no, he is not as timid as portrayed. Don't forget that Jon is a POV, and has his own biases.

[Son of An Other]

http://zincpiccalilli.tumblr.com/post/51327326101

This is an excellent analysis of the character of Bowen Marsh. As usual GRRM tantalizes us with bits and pieces of character development and plot points throughout the series, but when brought together (as Yeade so aptly did) they can reveal hidden truths that are not evident based on a casual, surface reading.

As to the OP I am in two minds. I think the usage of 'bastard' is very significant, and I just can't see Stannis writing what he knows to be falsehoods. Remember the letter about Jamie and Cersei's incest in ACoK. He took out 'beloved' in reference to Robert because it was a lie. I can see Thorne having some part to do with the letter since he is always calling Jon a bastard whenever we see them interact. However, I can also see Ramsay using the term, one that is so hateful to him, to mock and insult Jon. Of course I have not read the early released chapters of TWoW yet (I'm saving them for later, I don't want to spoil anything of TWoW... yet.) Basically I'm saying that I don't think its Stannis, but that there could be some involvement (possibly) with Thorne and (probably) with Ramsay.

[Satin Flowers]

This is very well detailed and thought out.

I do not doubt that Thorne wants Jon dead, and that he is the stronger personality when it comes to his interactions with Marsh. Since Marsh doesn't seem to enjoy any confrontations, I can see him being swayed by Thorne, easily.

Also, the mentioning of the cell that Sam saw earlier is interesting, since it's never been brought up again. Seems odd that it would be a throw away observation or thought on Sam's part. The author likes dropping us breadcrumbs, and that could well be one of them.

As to why Thorne would want Jon dead there are a lot of reasons. Most of which seem rather petty to my eyes.

Thorne doesn't seem like someone who thinks about the big picture. If he just wanted Jon dead so he'd have a shot at becoming LC after him, then he failed to consider all those wildlings and new NW recruits who admire Jon. None of them are going to take Marsh & co. attack well.

[David Selig]

Thorne hated him, Jon had decided; of course, he hated the other boys even worse.

"That was a grievous error, Lord Snow," he said at last in the acid tones of an enemy.

In the blink of an eye, Jon had vaulted onto the table, dagger in his hand.(...) He lunged at Ser Alliser's face with the dagger..

Citations in order. Initially Jon was Ser Alliser's favorite. But he himself made an enemy out of him (with a bit of help from Tyrion). And he himself upped the stakes when he tried to murder Ser Alliser. It was Jon himself that brought it upon him.

Of course Ser Alliser distrusts him and want him to be executed - people tend to react that way if they're almost murdered by somebody.

Exactly. It's quite clear why Thorne hates Jon, he has an excellent reason too. Jon tried to murder him and didn't get punished for it at all.

[bemused]

David Selig ... I think that's just a surface reading, and giving credit where it's not really due.. but we can differ.. I believe there's much more to come out about Thorne and Marsh, we'll just have to wait and see.

Jon did get punished / reprimanded .( We can only wonder what Mormont said to Thorne .) Of course , the only punishment that would have satisfied Thorne was execution, for drawing on a senior officer. ( Maybe he would have settled for maiming..but maybe not. ) Luckily for Jon , Mormont knew Jon had been goaded, knew Thorne's character, and saw too much promise in Jon to rob the watch of a potentially good man (undermanned as they are ) , just to satisfy the bully who set him up.

Nyrhex, ..Thorne is "pissy" in general..but "pissiest" about Starks. That is my point. I just find it out of all proportion, and there's probably something more behind it that we haven't been told yet. Again ,we'll have to wait and see.

But he wasn't "passed" over.. Mormont was elected. Thorne could never be elected LC , too many people dislike him too strongly - because of his meanness and bullying. After being an officer of the NW for 15 yrs., people were more willing to elect Slynt ( that has to tell you something about Thorne)... and if Mallister and Pyke hadn't been so dead set against each other , one of them would have been elected LC , not Jon. ( I happen to think this was fortunate for the watch , the way things are going )

Thorne could never have been made First Ranger. A First Ranger has to be able to lead men. Thorne can't lead, for all the same old reasons , he's made too many men despise him... Imagine if he had to lead a troop out composed of the men he's trained. Do you think he would come back ? You can't lead men by making them fear and hate you. He's a good manipulator ( if that's good ) . He can get people to do what he wants, if they're less intelligent than him and don't see through him... by preying on their fears, resentments , prejudices and superstitions , but that only works on the malcontents in any group.

To me , he has a bit of the flavour of Claggart from Billy Budd .

And you know , I don't really think he cares about rising in the NW, or he would have developed a different attitude in 15 years. I think he resents being there .Period.That's why he considers his time there wasted. I think he only put his name forward for LC ( then withdrew and got behind Slynt once he knew he'd never make it ) to be sure he'd be able to execute Jon. If he cared about the well-being of the watch at all , he would have thrown his votes to Pyke or Mallister. That chance of killing Jon would also be the only reason he'd play along with the Lannisters , unless someone promised him a release from the watch ...in which case they'd be fine with Jon being executed , anyway.

You seem to think it would have been so easy for Jon to escape from Styr earlier , or to have sent word (?!), but you don't say how.. I'm afraid I think that would have been impossible, without getting killed in the attempt. Then he would have been no help to the watch. Qhorin gave his life so that Jon could join the wildlings to see what they were up to, but still , Jon was watched at all times. It was only by the fortuitous onset of a thunderstorm and an intervention by Summer ( and the good luck that the old man had a horse ), that he even managed to escape when he did. That's not failure , that's success against great odds.

Why was Mance so confident that he could win as soon as Jon told him that Bowen had been left in charge?.. It's because he knew Bowen , and he knew Bowen would over-commit against his feints. A wiser man would have left Donal Noye in charge. A wiser man would have left a few more men and a better mix of men..not just all the ones he considered the least use. You say Bowen is not fearful... What do you call it when he takes all the best fighting men with him ? Is it possible he's thinking ,at least in part , of his own protection ?

If it hadn't been for Jon's escape , Mance would have been completely right.

As it was ,Jon had to stand atop the King's tower watching the smoke from Moletown burning ...

" The thing to do would be to take the attack to them , he thought. With fifty rangers well mounted , we could cut them apart on the road. They did not have fifty rangers though , nor half as many horses. "

( I think this foreshadows the kind of plan he has in mind after the pink letter. Stopping an attack by Ramsay is his immediate concern ..)

But you misunderstand part of what you've quoted from me, above. Donal and Jon did not do ..did not even think of doing what Bowen wants to do now ( meaning after his return from the Shadow Tower.. now more fearful than he was before ) What Bowen means by "sealing the gates " , now is... pack the tunnels with rocks and rubble and pour water over it ..make it part of the wall, so any gate ceases to exist. He doesn't want anyone to go out ranging. Or hunting ( even though there's still game). He doesn't want to feed the wildlings that are already south of the wall. He wants the NW to just sit there, feeding only themselves, cutting rations until they run out.. I guess hoping for help from KL , someday( good luck with that ). Although I think Bowen has been unwise before, this is what I meant specifically , when I said " we know this would be unwise" .

ETA: Jon is not without fault. But he does try to learn . He took Noye's lesson to heart .. Mormont's , Qhorin's, Aemon's..on and on. He's been too slow to truly bond with Ghost , is still trying to find the balance with how close or distant to be with his men, and has a few more blind spots, I guess... ( ask Val ) ;) He has faults , but timidity , a closed mind , meanness, cowardice and vindictiveness are not among them.

[daario's man]

Great post OP, the only thing I disagree with is the sleeping cell in the wormways, surely Sam finds it before Thorne has left although I do agree that it is odd that is mentioned.

[bemused]

Yes. It was before Thorne left. But Sam doesn't use it or tell anyone about it... I think GRRM wrote it in just to establish it was there , or to set up that if there was one , there could be another.... for someone else to use in future. ( Thorne ?)

[three-eyed monkey]

Excellent OP. The smear of wax is definitely a big clue to something. I think it is very plausible that the pink letter has been tampered with, and if that is the case then Thorne, or someone under his influence, must top the list of suspects. I agree that there is too much information about Reek and Mance for Thorne and co. to have penned the letter outright, but the original may well have been intercepted and redrafted or amended.

Great catch on the sleeping-cell in the wormways, btw, I had forgotten about that completely. Besides, a secret return to CB hell-bent on revenge against Jon is about the only way I can see it going for Thorne now. I hardly think he's out there ranging in the haunted forest, nor that we've seen the last of him.

[bemused]

Thanks, you monkey , you.. ( I'm a monkey-year person, so I feel it's safe to tease ). Here's the link to the companion thread I posted in the ADWD forum.. I think they go together, in the big picture..

http://asoiaf.wester...pening-a-knife/

son of another ...meant to say , I don't think anyone could think the letter was written by Stannis without reading the Theon TWoW chapter , so I won't spoil anything for you here ... but don't count him out completely until you read that far..even if he seems an unlikely candidate. And he might not have written it ..but for now , I like him best.

[three-eyed monkey]

Thanks, you monkey , you.. ( I'm a monkey-year person, so I feel it's safe to tease ). Here's the link to the companion thread I posted in the ADWD forum.. I think they go together, in the big picture..

Thanks for the link, I'll be sure to check it out. And it is indeed safe to tease. Only un-flayed bananas offend me.

[OutlawSarge]

love the parallel between the two letters. great post

[Boxman]

I think Thorne's hatred of Jon Snow comes from him blaming Stark, Baratheon, and Lannister, in equal parts, for getting him sent to the wall. Tywin swung the sword, but it was because of Stark and Baratheon that Tywin came to sack King's Landing in the first place. He also probably fought Robert's forces (including Stark bannermen) during the rebellion, and has had 15 years on the wall to nurse a deep hatred for his enemies in the war