Everything we know about Tourney of Harrenhal

[Skagosi High Chef]

I don't think the kotLT could be Howland because he would have no training in the joust or be an expert horseman. It says he was small, Ned isn't a giant, but he is not small, not even in his mid-late teens. I think the KotLT has to be Lyanna, all of the quotes in the book about her being such a great horseman alludes tothat. Jousting is about riding. The only part that detracts from it is wouldn't they recognize a girls voice.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I don't think the kotLT could be Howland because he would have no training in the joust or be an expert horseman. It says he was small, Ned isn't a giant, but he is not small, not even in his mid-late teens. I think the KotLT has to be Lyanna, all of the quotes in the book about her being such a great horseman alludes tothat. Jousting is about riding. The only part that detracts from it is wouldn't they recognize a girls voice.

Isn't it said the KotLF spoke in a booming voice, from under a helmet (I think the helmet part is correct, I'm too lazy to check my book right now)? I took it to mean that Lyanna put on a loud, fake voice to make it sound like a man.

[Ygrain]

Isn't it said the KotLF spoke in a booming voice, from under a helmet (I think the helmet part is correct, I'm too lazy to check my book right now)? I took it to mean that Lyanna put on a loud, fake voice to make it sound like a man.

You remember correctly.

Besides, all those mentions of Lyanna's riding skills and riding being the skill necessary for jousting (and these hints are getting thicker in ADWD), already have a backing in one of the Targs (Daena? Elaena?) training with the rings, as well as

Elia Sand, who is already called Lady Lance

We already know that Lyanna was secretly training sparring with Benjen; training with the rings, as well would not come as a surprise.

[Petite Psycophant]

I always assumed that TKotLT is Howland Reed. The story is told by Howland's son who's surprised Ned Stark never told this story to his son. I always thought it's because it was the beginning of the friendship of Reed and Stark and why Howland valued his relationship with Eddard so much. Of course it would make sense that Ned wouldn't want to talk about it if Lyanna played a bigger part in the story because of the entire Rhaegar and Jon thing. It could be either of them, tbh.

[jet199]

If the Lem Lemoncloak = Richard Lonmouth theory is correct then I think it is likely that Ser Richard Lonmouth found out the KotLT was Lyanna and reported it back to Rhaegar rather than Rhaegar working it out for himself. I think Robert may have found her as well.

Arya and Gendy have a fight and Arya's dress is torn and they are covered in dirt.

Harwin took one look at them and burst out laughing, and Anguy smiled one of his stupid freckly smiles and said, "Are we certain this one is a highborn lady?" But Lem Lemoncloak gave Gendry a clout alongside the head. "You want to fight, fight with me! She's a girl, and half your age! You keep your hands off o' her, you hear me?"

"I started it " said Arya. "Gendry was just talking."

"Leave the boy, Lem," said Harwin. "Arya did start it, I have no doubt. She was much the same at Winterfell."

Arya looks like Lyanna and Gendry looks like young Robert so Lem may be getting upset because they remind him of Lyanna and Robert fighting after they tracked her down. If he did report the KotLT's identity to Rhaegar he could well believe that moment lead to Rhaegar and Lyanna's deaths so it is a sad memory.

Tom is singing this song when they come in,

My featherbed is deep and soft,

and there I'll lay you down,

I'll dress you all in yellow silk,

and on your head a crown.

For you shall be my lady love,

and I shall be your lord.

I'll always keep you warm and safe,

and guard you with my sword.

And how she smiled and how she laughed,

the maiden of the tree.

She spun away and said to him, no featherbed for me.

I'll wear a gown of golden leaves,

and bind my hair with grass,

But you can be my forest love,

and me your forest lass.

[Skagosi High Chef]

But obviously even a put on voice from a teenage girl is not the booming voice of a man. Helmet or no for added resonance. That is the only thing that takes away from it being Lyanna. Every thing else makes it seem like Lyanna. And Jojen saying "are you sure your father never told you this?" does not point to Ned at all, that would actually make it even more Lyanna, Ned isn't one to brag, the fact that it was a girl, his sister, that unhorsed those men would be the reason he told the story. Again HR is not even possible. How could someone with no jousting experience and little to no experience with horses perform well on his first tourney?

If it was Lyanna then that is why Rhaegar became infatuated with her. I also don't buy that Barristan let Rhaegar win. They are all elite level jousters. A sport. At the elite level anyone can win on any given day. Yes some are better and win more, that doesn't mean they never lose.

[blakerm]

But obviously even a put on voice from a teenage girl is not the booming voice of a man. Helmet or no for added resonance. That is the only thing that takes away from it being Lyanna. Every thing else makes it seem like Lyanna. And Jojen saying "are you sure your father never told you this?" does not point to Ned at all, that would actually make it even more Lyanna, Ned isn't one to brag, the fact that it was a girl, his sister, that unhorsed those men would be the reason he told the story. Again HR is not even possible. How could someone with no jousting experience and little to no experience with horses perform well on his first tourney?

If it was Lyanna then that is why Rhaegar became infatuated with her. I also don't buy that Barristan let Rhaegar win. They are all elite level jousters. A sport. At the elite level anyone can win on any given day. Yes some are better and win more, that doesn't mean they never lose.

I still think it's pretty clear KotLT was Ned. There's no other reason for Jojen to continually ask, "are you sure your father never told you this?" Why in the world would Jojen obdurately assume his father told him some random story about Lyanna? And not everything makes it seem like it was Lyanna. The story explicitly says it was Ned who invited Howland to share his tent, which is an indication that KotLT was Ned. Why else would that be a part of the story? The story says he prayed to the old gods before going to sleep - it makes complete sense that Ned heard the prayer and talked to Howland about it.

Creating a sigil of the Weirwood laughing is absolutely a fun thing 2 teenagers would do (because Howland was praying to the old gods). Again, with Rhaegar & Lyanna: Lyanna was a really rare type of girl, compared to who Rhaeger was accustomed to being around, it wouldn't take much to become intrigued or infatuated with her.

Besides, all those mentions of Lyanna's riding skills and riding being the skill necessary for jousting (and these hints are getting thicker in ADWD)

Jousting isn't just riding a horse (I just read the chapter where Theon & Roose Bolton were talking, "a great jouster must be a great horseman first." He was saying his 1st son was a better rider than Lyanna, but, according to the book, that only indicated he had promise). Lyanna would have to have a Brienne / Elia Sand type of body to even have a chance at jousting... And to defeat 3 huge knights with 0 experience is just unrealistic. Plus there is no way Lyanna would want it to be a mystery! Never revealing his face (being shy, like the story clearly & explicitly points out) is such a Ned thing to do.

[Ser Leftwich]

The story explicitly says it was Ned who invited Howland to share his tent, which is an indication that KotLT was Ned. Why else would that be a part of the story?

It is to show that Ned has manners and honor. That he is giving Howland the place of honor he deserves as a lord's heir from the Neck. To show that Brandon did not care.

No indication that Ned was the KotLT.

[blakerm]

It is to show that Ned has manners and honor. That he is giving Howland the place of honor he deserves as a lord's heir from the Neck. To show that Brandon did not care.

No indication that Ned was the KotLT.

That reasoning makes absolutely no sense. If it was irrelevant, the story would've simply said, "but before he went to sleep, he prayed to the old gods," instead of explicitly mentioning where he slept. And there are a bunch of things that indicate it was Ned - him and Howland hanging out / sleeping in the same tent is an indication it was Ned. Jojen refusing to believe that Ned never told Bran the story is an indication it was Ned. The fact that KotLT didn't show up the next day to see if he could win the tourney is an indication it was Ned. The fact that KotLT never revealed himself is an indication it was Ned.

[Ygrain]

I still think it's pretty clear KotLT was Ned. There's no other reason for Jojen to continually ask, "are you sure your father never told you this?" Why in the world would Jojen obdurately assume his father told him some random story about Lyanna? And not everything makes it seem like it was Lyanna. The story explicitly says it was Ned who invited Howland to share his tent, which is an indication that KotLT was Ned. Why else would that be a part of the story? The story says he prayed to the old gods before going to sleep - it makes complete sense that Ned heard the prayer and talked to Howland about it.

It is no random story - this is Harrenhall, where Rhaegar crowned her QoLaB, and that was no random act, either. Rhaegar was sent to find the KotLT, and if she was KotLT, that's how they met, the beginning of all the woe that followed. Of course Ned wouldn't be inclined to speak about it.

Creating a sigil of the Weirwood laughing is absolutely a fun thing 2 teenagers would do (because Howland was praying to the old gods). Again, with Rhaegar & Lyanna: Lyanna was a really rare type of girl, compared to who Rhaeger was accustomed to being around, it wouldn't take much to become intrigued or infatuated with her.

Absolutely - which totally rules out Ned who never was the boy he was. Besides, he was a young man there, not some giggling teen.

Jousting isn't just riding a horse (I just read the chapter where Theon & Roose Bolton were talking, "a great jouster must be a great horseman first." He was saying his 1st son was a better rider than Lyanna, but, according to the book, that only indicated he had promise). Lyanna would have to have a Brienne / Elia Sand type of body to even have a chance at jousting... And to defeat 3 huge knights with 0 experience is just unrealistic. Plus there is no way Lyanna would want it to be a mystery! Never revealing his face (being shy, like the story clearly & explicitly points out) is such a Ned thing to do.

Around this place, there are two more mentions of horsemanship as being key to jousting, within some 50-100 pages or so, one of them Wyman Manderly remembering his youth. You're reading DOmeric out of contextz - we don't know how old he was or how many tourney he had had a chance to participate in. And, if you think that body type does it, you should look at Loras Tyrell who is described slender as a maiden.

That reasoning makes absolutely no sense. If it was irrelevant, the story would've simply said, "but before he went to sleep, he prayed to the old gods," instead of explicitly mentioning where he slept. And there are a bunch of things that indicate it was Ned - him and Howland hanging out / sleeping in the same tent is an indication it was Ned. Jojen refusing to believe that Ned never told Bran the story is an indication it was Ned. The fact that KotLT didn't show up the next day to see if he could win the tourney is an indication it was Ned. The fact that KotLT never revealed himself is an indication it was Ned.

This is completely faulty reasoning. Besides what Ser Leftwich said, about Ned caring and honouring his father's vassal whereas Brandon didn't care, here you have a start of the friendship that culminated with HR standing by Ned's side at ToJ.

If Ned wanted to avenge HR, he would have done so in his own name, with his face uncovered for everyone to see.

Speaking of Ned, we know that he was a competent but not exceptional swordsman, and there's not a word about his riding skills, IIRC - unless that scene with his broken leg is to hint that he was not a particularly talented horseman, either.

It is to show that Ned has manners and honor. That he is giving Howland the place of honor he deserves as a lord's heir from the Neck. To show that Brandon did not care.

This is a great catch and perhaps it even has greater significance. With Brandon's skill, it is clear that he easily could have defeated those knights, or, as an heir to Lord of Winterfell, could have used his social status to reprimand them, yet he did nothing. This is bound not to have sat well with Ned, and I wonder whether one reason why he never told the story might be some degree of his own participation in the KotLT ruse. We know that he was willing to bend the rules for the right cause, after all, and if his attitude to Arya is anything to go by, he wouldn't have restricted Lyanna like Rickard did.

[corbon]

I believe the the Knight of the Laughing Tree was Eddard Stark. It doesnt make sense to say it was Lyanna just because Rhaegar was intrigued with her; it only took 1 minute of being around Lyanna to be intrigued (or simply learning of her reputation). And the prince would be way more than just intrigued if he learned KotLT was Lyanna.

Everything seems to indicate the Crannogman was Howland Reed. During the feast, the story explicitly says: Lyanna pointed out the 3 squires to her brothers. Afterwards, Ned offered Howland a place in his tent. And, no doubt, they hung out and talked (the story even says, after Ned offered him some space, Howland knelt & said a prayer to the old gods).

Ned couldn't have enlisted as a mystery knight & then worn his own armor; so obviously, since this mystery thing wasn't planned, he needed to create his own armor (I'm guessing Howland helped him & that he and Howland planned it). At his age, he easily could've had more growing to do (in reference to KotLT being short). It seems a bit crazy for Lyanna to be able to defeat 3 skilled knights with no tourney experience. And this version would explain how / why Ned & Howland were such close friends. And the story ends with Jojen asking (for the 3rd time), "Are you certain you never heard this tale before, Bran? Your lord father never told it to you?"

You should read back through a few older threads - this one is a start, though not alone. This have been gone through extensively and all your arguments have already been often countered.The reasons it is quite clearly Lyanna are myriad, far beyond "just to explain Rhaegar's interest (which is nonetheless an important cherry on the top).

Ned is ruled out by the KotLT being small in stature (Ned is not, and at 18 with a lifetime of physical training is certainly not lacking his full growth), Ned would also have his own armour and would need only to remove any Stark markings to disguise it, not to get mismatched parts from here and there. And there are metaplot reasons of course, which are important, not to mention the precise pointers at Lyanna scattered throughout the texts. There is also absolutely zero reason for Ned to enter as a mystery knight. He can enter quite openly and do exactly as th eKotLT did no problem.

The whole 'you're sure you haven't heard this' points to Lyanna, not Ned. Yes, it clearly shows the story is about both House Stark and House Reed (little crannogman being Howland) but if it was Ned there would be no reason for Ned not to have told the tale before to Bran. About Lyanna though, he clearly finds painful to even think about her, and thus we have the reason why Bran has never heard the story.

But obviously even a put on voice from a teenage girl is not the booming voice of a man. Helmet or no for added resonance. That is the only thing that takes away from it being Lyanna.

It wasn't a mans voice. It was a booming voice (not necessarily particularly deep), exactly like someone deliberately disguising their voice, which onlookers assumed was a man's voice. See also Brienne, when Catelyn first met her. She was fighting in armour and helm and won, and even after she spoke, when she lifted her helm Catelyn was shocked that it was a woman. There's explicit first hand evidence that in GRRMs world a knightly helm and assumptions make a womans voice indistinguishable from a mans.

I still think it's pretty clear KotLT was Ned. There's no other reason for Jojen to continually ask, "are you sure your father never told you this?" Why in the world would Jojen obdurately assume his father told him some random story about Lyanna? And not everything makes it seem like it was Lyanna. The story explicitly says it was Ned who invited Howland to share his tent, which is an indication that KotLT was Ned. Why else would that be a part of the story? The story says he prayed to the old gods before going to sleep - it makes complete sense that Ned heard the prayer and talked to Howland about it.

Creating a sigil of the Weirwood laughing is absolutely a fun thing 2 teenagers would do (because Howland was praying to the old gods). Again, with Rhaegar & Lyanna: Lyanna was a really rare type of girl, compared to who Rhaeger was accustomed to being around, it wouldn't take much to become intrigued or infatuated with her.

Jousting isn't just riding a horse (I just read the chapter where Theon & Roose Bolton were talking, "a great jouster must be a great horseman first." He was saying his 1st son was a better rider than Lyanna, but, according to the book, that only indicated he had promise). Lyanna would have to have a Brienne / Elia Sand type of body to even have a chance at jousting... And to defeat 3 huge knights with 0 experience is just unrealistic. Plus there is no way Lyanna would want it to be a mystery! Never revealing his face (being shy, like the story clearly & explicitly points out) is such a Ned thing to do.

Because Lyanna's story is a House Stark Story and Lyanna was a much loved sister lost to an early grave. It is quite natural for Jojen and Meera to assume Bran would have been told stories about her and find it mystifying that he has not.

Praying to the Old Gods was out at the lakeside IIRC, not in the tent, near Ned.

Lyanna, wild, fierce, and rebellious, is far more a character to paint a laughing weirwood than sombre, sober, never-the-boy-you-were Ned.

Hear GRRMs words: Jousting is 75% horsemanship. Real or not, thats what the in-world expert, Jaime Lannister, tells us off hand.

The KotLT beat three knights of no great reknown (no mugs for sure - one of them had lasted a full day as champion in a challenge format, but no-names in terms of jousting (usually in a multi-day tourney greater knights wait for the final day or two to make their challenges). Thats it. She doesn't need great strength, she doesn't need to worry about fatigue or stamina, she can easily have honed her skills with a light lance by riding at rings and she's one of the very best in the continent at the key discipline, horsemanship (the same disciplne that enable slightly built 16 year old Loras Tyrell defeat the Mountain). Given the astonishing coincidence that sees the three knights she wants to revenge on all make "champion" at the same time, and at the end of the day when she won't have to face challengers, its utterly trivial to follow the math and logic to see Lyanna being able to win those three bouts. GRRM has provided the clues for his world, whether or not it would be possible in our world.

Also worth remembering - there is no such thing as teenagers in Westeros. Kids mature much faster - both physically and socially, because of the lifestyle, training and expectations that are placed on them. Emotionally young adults in Westeros are undoubtedly somewhat as flakey as our modern teenagers are, but they are physically, mentally and emotionally different beasts than our teenagers.

And Robert explicitly complains to Ned that he was never a teenager (ironic given Robert never stopped being one), so its no good try to pretend 18yr old Ned had a different character than the one we know.

That reasoning makes absolutely no sense. If it was irrelevant, the story would've simply said, "but before he went to sleep, he prayed to the old gods," instead of explicitly mentioning where he slept. And there are a bunch of things that indicate it was Ned - him and Howland hanging out / sleeping in the same tent is an indication it was Ned. Jojen refusing to believe that Ned never told Bran the story is an indication it was Ned. The fact that KotLT didn't show up the next day to see if he could win the tourney is an indication it was Ned. The fact that KotLT never revealed himself is an indication it was Ned.

Its a start to the Ned/Howland long and deep friendship.

Not a single one of your arguments for it being Ned actually favour Ned over Lyanna.

[blakerm]

It is no random story - this is Harrenhall, where Rhaegar crowned her QoLaB, and that was no random act, either. Rhaegar was sent to find the KotLT, and if she was KotLT, that's how they met, the beginning of all the woe that followed. Of course Ned wouldn't be inclined to speak about it.

I think you're agreeing with me - if the KotLT was Lyanna, then there would be no reason for Ned to tell this story to Bran. So why would Jojen believe he did? And it goes beyond that - Jojen assumed Ned told Bran the story. Jojen refused to believe Bran when Bran told him he didn't know the story (continually asking, "are you sure your father never told you?"). And Jojen never simply asked if Bran knew the story, Jojen always asked, "you never heard this tale from your father?" I think people are seriously over looking how significant that evidence is when it comes to identifying KotLT.

Absolutely - which totally rules out Ned who never was the boy he was. Besides, he was a young man there, not some giggling teen.

I thought someone on this thread said Ned was 18? If so, I think it's something Ned & Howland would do (they'd be having fun designing the armor, so they wouldn't want some somber / sad looking Weirwood). But does anybody know how old Benjen was? He was the one who offered Howland armor at the feast.

Around this place, there are two more mentions of horsemanship as being key to jousting, within some 50-100 pages or so, one of them Wyman Manderly remembering his youth. You're reading DOmeric out of contextz - we don't know how old he was or how many tourney he had had a chance to participate in. And, if you think that body type does it, you should look at Loras Tyrell who is described slender as a maiden.

This is completely faulty reasoning. Besides what Ser Leftwich said, about Ned caring and honouring his father's vassal whereas Brandon didn't care, here you have a start of the friendship that culminated with HR standing by Ned's side at ToJ.

If Ned wanted to avenge HR, he would have done so in his own name, with his face uncovered for everyone to see.

Speaking of Ned, we know that he was a competent but not exceptional swordsman, and there's not a word about his riding skills, IIRC - unless that scene with his broken leg is to hint that he was not a particularly talented horseman, either.

I absolutely did not read the comment about Domeric out of context, I gave you a direct quote. All we know of his age is: he served 4 years as a page & 3 as a squire at the time Lord Redfort said he had promise in the lists. The way it was written seems to imply Domeric never participated in a tourney. And while Loras may be slendor, he has to be muscular and he's certainly not a girl.

When telling the story, the story wasn't about Ned & Howland's friendship, it was about KotLT; so why go through the trouble of saying Ned offered space in his tent to HR if KotLT wasn't Ned? We could already see how their friendship started without that info, and it was only a few words - most people detailing Ned & HW's relationship would probably forget that it was even mentioned. And the story indicates that Ned was shy & would've hidden his face, and how would it look for someone to avenge something that was done to another man? Howland wanted to do it, but he thought he had no chance & might bring shame to his house.

In the end, we have no idea how skilled any of the possible KotLT candidates are. It could've been Howland Reed (who hid his face because he didn't want to shame his house if he lost) but I think he would've shone his face after defeating all 3. I'd think Brandon would've never entered as a mystery knight. I don't know if Benjen is plausible. It seems that Ned is by far the most likely to be KotLT.

With Brandon's skill, it is clear that he easily could have defeated those knights, or, as an heir to Lord of Winterfell, could have used his social status to reprimand them, yet he did nothing. This is bound not to have sat well with Ned, and I wonder whether one reason why he never told the story might be some degree of his own participation in the KotLT ruse. We know that he was willing to bend the rules for the right cause, after all, and if his attitude to Arya is anything to go by, he wouldn't have restricted Lyanna like Rickard did.

That was a mysterous conclusion to a comment.. so who do you believe the KotLT was?

[corbon]

I think you're agreeing with me - if the KotLT was Lyanna, then there would be no reason for Ned to tell this story to Bran. So why would Jojen believe he did? And it goes beyond that - Jojen assumed Ned told Bran the story. Jojen refused to believe Bran when Bran told him he didn't know the story (continually asking, "are you sure your father never told you?"). And Jojen never simply asked if Bran knew the story, Jojen always asked, "you never heard this tale from your father?" I think people are seriously over looking how significant that evidence is when it comes to identifying KotLT.

No, its just you who is insisting it means something different to what just about everyone else understands.

There is absolutely reason and expectation for Jojen to think Bran would have heard it from his father. Its about his aunt, his father's much-loved younger sister who was lost to an early grave. These people don't have photos and movies. They have stories to remembered their loved ones. We know that Lyanna's memory is painful for Ned, and thus we know why he has not told Bran this story. But Jojen and Meera don't know this.

Conversely, if Ned is the KotLT then its just an minor event from his youth. Jojen and Meera have reason to expect Bran to have been told of it, but no reason to be quite so convinced he must have been told. Ned would have many stories of his youth to tell, not just this one. Lyanna, not so much though.

I thought someone on this thread said Ned was 18? If so, I think it's something Ned & Howland would do (they'd be having fun designing the armor, so they wouldn't want some somber / sad looking Weirwood). But does anybody know how old Benjen was? He was the one who offered Howland armor at the feast.

And as pointed out to you, not only is your image of giggling teenagers playing a prank completely out of place in this world, and completely out of place of an 18 year old man trained to fight and kill since early childhood, its explicitly and specifically out of place for Ned Stark. Robert, with whom he actually spent his teenage years in close proximity with (both together as wards of Jon Arryn), actually complained to Ned that he "was never the boy you were"! Young Ned Stark was not a giggling prankster.

When telling the story, the story wasn't about Ned & Howland's friendship, it was about KotLT;

It was about a lot of things. Mostly it was about what the Little Crannogman experienced, and saw, and the KotLT is a major portion of that - and the reason its a House Stark story as well.

so why go through the trouble of saying Ned offered space in his tent to HR if KotLT wasn't Ned? We could already see how their friendship started without that info, and it was only a few words - most people detailing Ned & HW's relationship would probably forget that it was even mentioned.

The same reason(s) we heard about Ashara Dayne dancing with several men, how Brandon asked her to dance with Ned, about Lyanna crying over Rhaegar's song and dumping her drink over Benjen's head when he teased her, about Robert drinking heavily and all the rest. Because its what the Little Crannogman saw and experienced, all of it, and these extra details addd depth and experience to storytelling.

And just as importantly for us, it allows GRRM to gives us lots of brilliantly subtle little clues and foreshadowing and ironies. Like Robert, drunk and ignoring Lyanna, supporting Aerys and declaring he'd unmask the KotLT!

And the story indicates that Ned was shy & would've hidden his face,

Shy in terms of dancing and girls. No need to hid his face and identity for jousting though. There is literally no reason at all why Ned would enter as a mystery knight instead of as himself.

and how would it look for someone to avenge something that was done to another man?

Honourable. Thats what Lords are supposed to do, for their weaker vassals after all.

In the end, we have no idea how skilled any of the possible KotLT candidates are.

Sure we do. We have a wide variety of clues about Lyanna's martial skills, including that in the skill 3x more important than everything else put together, she is one of the best there is.

We know Benjen is only around 11, and Lyanna typically bests him in swordplay.

We know Howland Reed has no skill at riding nor with lance.

We don't know much about Ned's skills. But he's not really a candidate as he is not small of stature. Thats something you can't fake.

We don't absolutely know about Brandon's skills, but we do know we was a good swordsman, better than Ned, and that he lost in the tourney to Rhaegar, the eventual champion (later on, since Rhaegar has not appeared on the lists by the KotLT events. But again, he's not actually a candidate, but included to round out everyone who knows of the three squires.

I'd think Brandon would've never entered as a mystery knight.

Indeed, in fact he entered the tournament publically and was defeated by Rhaegar Targaryen

I don't know if Benjen is plausible.

He's not impossible, but any argument against Lyanna goes at least as much for Benjen - he's 11ish, she's 13-14ish and beats him in swordplay.

More importantly perhaps, there is no metaplot reason or relevance for the KotLT being Benjen. Why bother with the story at all in that case...

It seems that Ned is by far the most likely to be KotLT.

Ned is simply not small of stature. It can't be Ned. Nor is there any reason for him to act that way, nor is there any significant metaplot use in the story if it is about Ned. His friendship with HR could easily simply be a war thing from the rebellion, culminating in the ToJ, for any purpose that HR adds to the story so far, or as far as we can see thus far.

That was a mysterous conclusion to a comment.. so who do you believe the KotLT was?

I believe she will not take offence if I answer that on her behalf (we've had many other exchanges, both public and PM, and I'd not take that liberty with many, perhaps any, other on this board) - she is fairly certain it was Lyanna Stark. All the evidence points that way.

[blakerm]

You should read back through a few older threads - this one is a start, though not alone. This have been gone through extensively and all your arguments have already been often countered.The reasons it is quite clearly Lyanna are myriad, far beyond "just to explain Rhaegar's interest (which is nonetheless an important cherry on the top).

Ned is ruled out by the KotLT being small in stature (Ned is not, and at 18 with a lifetime of physical training is certainly not lacking his full growth), Ned would also have his own armour and would need only to remove any Stark markings to disguise it, not to get mismatched parts from here and there. And there are metaplot reasons of course, which are important, not to mention the precise pointers at Lyanna scattered throughout the texts. There is also absolutely zero reason for Ned to enter as a mystery knight. He can enter quite openly and do exactly as th eKotLT did no problem.

The whole 'you're sure you haven't heard this' points to Lyanna, not Ned. Yes, it clearly shows the story is about both House Stark and House Reed (little crannogman being Howland) but if it was Ned there would be no reason for Ned not to have told the tale before to Bran. About Lyanna though, he clearly finds painful to even think about her, and thus we have the reason why Bran has never heard the story.

Wow, after looking at that thread, it's almost disheartening to know this debate has been going on for so long with no definite conclusion. I just thought that since this thread is mostly speculation about KotLT, there must not be one entirely devoted to it. I think it's a bit much to assume that Ned was fully grown at age 18. He was kinda short as a full grown adult (especially compared to other knights). I completely disagree that there was no reason for Ned to enter as a mystery knight... Howland was physically able to avenge himself; he wasn't some boy. So it would've looked pretty bad if the heir to a noble house needs someone else to avenge him.

Again though, if it was Lyanna, why in the world would Jojen 100% assume Ned told the story to Bran? As you said, if KotLT was Ned, he absolutely should've told Bran the story (which would explain Jojen's disbelief). The explanation of it being a House Stark story is not enough to justify Jojen continually interrupting Meera to ask if he's sure his father never told him the story.

Because Lyanna's story is a House Stark Story and Lyanna was a much loved sister lost to an early grave. It is quite natural for Jojen and Meera to assume Bran would have been told stories about her and find it mystifying that he has not.

Praying to the Old Gods was out at the lakeside IIRC, not in the tent, near Ned.

Lyanna, wild, fierce, and rebellious, is far more a character to paint a laughing weirwood than sombre, sober, never-the-boy-you-were Ned.

Hear GRRMs words: Jousting is 75% horsemanship. Real or not, thats what the in-world expert, Jaime Lannister, tells us off hand.

The KotLT beat three knights of no great reknown (no mugs for sure - one of them had lasted a full day as champion in a challenge format, but no-names in terms of jousting (usually in a multi-day tourney greater knights wait for the final day or two to make their challenges). Thats it. She doesn't need great strength, she doesn't need to worry about fatigue or stamina, she can easily have honed her skills with a light lance by riding at rings and she's one of the very best in the continent at the key discipline, horsemanship (the same disciplne that enable slightly built 16 year old Loras Tyrell defeat the Mountain). Given the astonishing coincidence that sees the three knights she wants to revenge on all make "champion" at the same time, and at the end of the day when she won't have to face challengers, its utterly trivial to follow the math and logic to see Lyanna being able to win those three bouts. GRRM has provided the clues for his world, whether or not it would be possible in our world.

Also worth remembering - there is no such thing as teenagers in Westeros. Kids mature much faster - both physically and socially, because of the lifestyle, training and expectations that are placed on them. Emotionally young adults in Westeros are undoubtedly somewhat as flakey as our modern teenagers are, but they are physically, mentally and emotionally different beasts than our teenagers.

And Robert explicitly complains to Ned that he was never a teenager (ironic given Robert never stopped being one), so its no good try to pretend 18yr old Ned had a different character than the one we know.

Its a start to the Ned/Howland long and deep friendship.

Not a single one of your arguments for it being Ned actually favour Ned over Lyanna.

Well, how close was the lakeside to the tent? It must've been pretty close since we believe KotLT was a Stark who heard his prayer.

I think it's a bit crazy to say KotLT beat 3 knights of no great renown! After KotLT's performance the king (and the future king) were urging men to challenge him. And the king was really upset when KotLT didn't show up the next day. Meaning: we can be almost 100% sure the knights that were defeated were renowned or their defeats would've been meaningless. I think it's crazy to say 18 year old Ned is the same as adult Ned because at age 18, Ned knew nothing other than a perfect life.

An argument in favor of it being someone other than Lyanna that I didn't see in the other thread: if it was Lyanna, there would be no reason to talk about the feast in the story. Here's the major thing that happened during the feast: "the wolf maid saw [the squires] too, and pointed them out to her brothers". It's only because that part was included in the story that we know all of Lyanna's brothers were aware of who the squires served.

[Ygrain]

I think you're agreeing with me - if the KotLT was Lyanna, then there would be no reason for Ned to tell this story to Bran. So why would Jojen believe he did? And it goes beyond that - Jojen assumed Ned told Bran the story. Jojen refused to believe Bran when Bran told him he didn't know the story (continually asking, "are you sure your father never told you?"). And Jojen never simply asked if Bran knew the story, Jojen always asked, "you never heard this tale from your father?" I think people are seriously over looking how significant that evidence is when it comes to identifying KotLT.

No. You say he would have no reason to tell, and I say he would have a reason not to tell.

Jojen would expect Bran to know the story because it's bloody important for his family history. It's the beginning of why Bran has no grandfather, no aunt and uncle other than Benjen.

I thought someone on this thread said Ned was 18? If so, I think it's something Ned & Howland would do (they'd be having fun designing the armor, so they wouldn't want some somber / sad looking Weirwood). But does anybody know how old Benjen was? He was the one who offered Howland armor at the feast.

Can you show me where in the books does Ned do anything for fun,in present or in the past? He remembers fondly Robert doing such things but once again, Robert points out that Ned was never any fun, all solemnity and duty.

I absolutely did not read the comment about Domeric out of context, I gave you a direct quote. All we know of his age is: he served 4 years as a page & 3 as a squire at the time Lord Redfort said he had promise in the lists. The way it was written seems to imply Domeric never participated in a tourney. And while Loras may be slendor, he has to be muscular and he's certainly not a girl.

I argued your use of the quote, not the text. It is one of the many pointing consistently to horsemanship being the key skill for successful jousting, not "just a promise".

Slender and muscular are mutually exclusive. A slender person may still be relatively strong but will not have great mass of muscles. And strength of muscles Lyanna would have had - training with a stick for a sword may not sound very impressive to someone who has never tried it but it is, in fact, pretty demanding.

When telling the story, the story wasn't about Ned & Howland's friendship, it was about KotLT; so why go through the trouble of saying Ned offered space in his tent to HR if KotLT wasn't Ned? We could already see how their friendship started without that info, and it was only a few words - most people detailing Ned & HW's relationship would probably forget that it was even mentioned. And the story indicates that Ned was shy & would've hidden his face, and how would it look for someone to avenge something that was done to another man? Howland wanted to do it, but he thought he had no chance & might bring shame to his house.

It's never just about one thing. GRRM once said that all the happenings of the Harrenhall tourney would have made a separate book; there is a lot more going on behind the scenes than just one mystery knight.

In the end, we have no idea how skilled any of the possible KotLT candidates are. It could've been Howland Reed (who hid his face because he didn't want to shame his house if he lost) but I think he would've shone his face after defeating all 3. I'd think Brandon would've never entered as a mystery knight. I don't know if Benjen is plausible. It seems that Ned is by far the most likely to be KotLT.

It couldn't be Howland himself because he had no training, and given where he is from, he probably couldn't even ride a horse very well, if at all.

That was a mysterous conclusion to a comment.. so who do you believe the KotLT was?

What corbon said - Lyanna. Brandon didn't care, Ned either didn't joust at all or wasn't particularly good, and Benjen was too young.

[Skagosi High Chef]

If Jojen's surprise of Bran not hearing the story from Ned is an indication it was Ned then why didn't they tell him who the KoTlt was, if they knew? Ned was dead so they should have been happy to tell their friend a heroic tale of his deceased father. If it was their father why wouldn't they tell him that? Perhaps they hoped Bran would have the answer himself.

[Ser Arys Redshirt]

Hmm. Interesting stuff. Here's how I see it:

Evidence for Howland Reed: He's a mystery man. He's been doing something with the green men We don't know what. While crannogmen are not known for riding, HR was somehow crucial to the defeat and death of the Sword of the Morning. So, he can't be a bad, or even mediocre, fighter. He's short.

Evidence for Lyanna Stark: As a girl, she would be shorter than most. However, we know she likes to fight, and that she's a proverbially excellent rider (many times mentioned as the most important factor in the joust). The faces in the weirwoods are more associated with Starks than with crannogmen.

Evidence for anybody else: None.

[Ser Leftwich]

I think it's a bit crazy to say KotLT beat 3 knights of no great renown! After KotLT's performance the king (and the future king) were urging men to challenge him. And the king was really upset when KotLT didn't show up the next day. Meaning: we can be almost 100% sure the knights that were defeated were renowned or their defeats would've been meaningless.

Rhaegar was not urging people to challenge him. And how is Aerys being paranoid about a mystery knight a surprise? Aerys is profoundly paranoid about his close family and friends. Mysterious stranger knights doing well at a tourney must have scared him witless!

Who the mystery knight defeated (they are both literally and anecdotally, losers) does not matter to Aerys, that he is a mystery matters to Aerys.

[corbon]

Wow, after looking at that thread, it's almost disheartening to know this debate has been going on for so long with no definite conclusion.

Oh there is a definite conclusion, its just there are always noobs who put it together differently on their own and need to be shown the accumulated evidence, and a few diehards who refuse to accept the facts as presented to them by GRRM.

I think it's a bit much to assume that Ned was fully grown at age 18. He was kinda short as a full grown adult (especially compared to other knights).

Evidence for him being short?

I don't think there is any.

18 isn't a soft teenager like we were (or are). Its a grown man who has been fighting in armour and with swords for several hours daily for around 10 years.

I completely disagree that there was no reason for Ned to enter as a mystery knight... Howland was physically able to avenge himself; he wasn't some boy. So it would've looked pretty bad if the heir to a noble house needs someone else to avenge him

No it would not. He's a crannogman for a start, and hasn't been a squire or had knightly training. And he is bannermen to the Starks, which means a Stark 'avenging' him is perfectly within the expected order of things.

Again though, if it was Lyanna, why in the world would Jojen 100% assume Ned told the story to Bran?

This has been explained to you several times already.

As you said, if KotLT was Ned, he absolutely should've told Bran the story (which would explain Jojen's disbelief).

Yes, explains the disbelief (which is equally explained if Lyanna is KotLT), but does not explain why Ned never told it.

The explanation of it being a House Stark story is not enough to justify Jojen continually interrupting Meera to ask if he's sure his father never told him the story.

Its a critical House Stark Story because its the exploits of a close relative who died young - and stories are all there is of her to be remembered by, for her nephews and nieces.

Not to mention its the foundation for the tragedy that almost destroyed the entire previous generation of Starks and still heavily impinges on the current generation.

OTOH, if it was Ned then its just another one of his exploits and no particular reason why this one must have been told.

Your own argument here points to Lyanna and not Ned.

Well, how close was the lakeside to the tent? It must've been pretty close since we believe KotLT was a Stark who heard his prayer.

There is no reason to assume anyone heard the prayer.

And no reason to assume the lake was close to the tent - indeed, better to assume it was not as he went there for privacy.

I think it's a bit crazy to say KotLT beat 3 knights of no great renown! After KotLT's performance the king (and the future king) were urging men to challenge him.

As noted, Aerys declared the mystery knight was no friend of his. He clearly was not urging them to challenge the knight because of his exploits, but to take him down. Aerys was highly paranoid and a mystery knight with an agenda obviously unsettled him - even more so when the knight disappears without a trace. And Rhaegar made no such urges.

We know (from Dunk I think) that in a challenge format tourney over multiple days the better knights usually hold off initially and allow the lesser knights to have their time in the sun. This is for several reasons.

First, this allows lesser knights to enter and still have a chance to win glory and win more bouts than they lose (financially important for many of the lesser knights as horse and/or arms/armour are forfeit to the winner and very very expensive). If the better knights enter early then the lesser knights have no chances and thus will not enter, and the tournament as a whole is diminished. Note that the KotLT challenged the three knights only at the end of the second day of five. And note that no great names are mentioned up to then, though we know that Rhaegar won, Barristan fought, Arthur Dayne fought, Brandon Stark was beaten by Rhaegar and so was Bronze Yohn Royce, a noted tourney fighter (who thrashed Ned Stark and Ser Rodrik Cassel together in practice later in Winterfell). All of the 'named' knights appear later.

Second, there is a always a risk, even when the skill disparity is significant, of injury, damage to gear, fatigue, or random chance knocking out a better fighter. So it's tactically unwise for the 'names' to challenge early and have to last through 4-5 days of fighting.

The jousting part of the tourney at Harrenhal was 5 days long and was a challenge format. 5 "champions" started, Whent of the KG and 4 of his nephews as 'hosts', collectively defending the right of their neice/sister to be named QoLaB. Anyone can challenge any of the 5 champions and if they win become champion in the place of the loser. And the end of the tourney the champions name the QoLaB (presumably they agree or fight it off as Rhaegar appears to have done with Arthur Dayne.

The three knights can't have been absolute mugs - they've all won at least one bout to be champion and the Porcupine Knight in particular has lasted a full day as champion (whether or not he was challenged) but they are there early, they have no names, and the men they defeated are not named at all so clearly they are not knights of great 'reknown' - definitively infact, since we don't even know their names, only their houses!

And the king was really upset when KotLT didn't show up the next day. Meaning: we can be almost 100% sure the knights that were defeated were renowned or their defeats would've been meaningless.

Not upset, wroth, which means angry. Their defeats were meaningless, it was just the prescence of a mystery knight with an agenda that screwed with paranoid Aerys' mind.

I think it's crazy to say 18 year old Ned is the same as adult Ned because at age 18, Ned knew nothing other than a perfect life.

GRRM (through Robert) said it, not me. I think you lose that argument... ;)

An argument in favor of it being someone other than Lyanna that I didn't see in the other thread: if it was Lyanna, there would be no reason to talk about the feast in the story. Here's the major thing that happened during the feast: "the wolf maid saw [the squires] too, and pointed them out to her brothers". It's only because that part was included in the story that we know all of Lyanna's brothers were aware of who the squires served.

As already pointed out to you, lots of things happen at Harrenhal, and they have little clues and implications for all sorts of things. Its a very bad argument to make that the whole feast story is there for just that one thing, when any number of other things are included entirely unnecessarily from that perspective.

Here's a few examples for you:

- Lyanna sniffles at Rhaegar's sad song and Benjen teases her, whereupon she dumps her drink over his head. Thats a potential clue there about Lyanna being rather receptive to Rhaegar already, setting up the idea that the whole kidnap and rape story we first get is a load of garbage and it was actually a mutual elopement (for which there are many other clues also)

- a brother of the Night's Watch makes a call for volunteers - is this where Benjen's future is first hinted at?

- Robert is ignoring Lyanna in favour of drinking Rhaegar's former squire (and still close friend according to the wiki) under the table, and swears to unmask the KotLT. This is one of several clues showing Robert didn't actually love Lyanna as he claims, just the idea of her, later when she was taken from him. And its interesting how Robert-the-future-rebel is close to his royal cousins, supporting Aerys against the KotLT, friends with Rhaegar's former squire...

- Ashara Dayne is shown dancing/talking with the absolute prime beef of 20+ (Oberyn Martell, Lord Jon Connington, the heir to Winterfell, A Kingsguard). And Ned, but only after Brandon asks her to because Ned was too shy to leave his seat. This is one of the few clues to her age we have and make it likely that she is 18-20ish, which ties her fairly neatly to Tyrion's estimate of Septa Lemore's age of 40+ nearly 20 years later.

Evidence for Howland Reed: He's a mystery man. He's been doing something with the green men We don't know what. While crannogmen are not known for riding, HR was somehow crucial to the defeat and death of the Sword of the Morning. So, he can't be a bad, or even mediocre, fighter. He's short.

Being a mystery man is not evidence of being something else. Nor is he actually a mystery man, just someone we haven't had a chance to meet yet for perfectly reasonable and logical reasons.

Doing something with the green men is not evidence of turning into an Andal Knight.

He was not directly crucial to the defeat of Arthur Dayne (at least we don't know that), just that without him Dayne would have killed Ned. That does not provide any evidence of fighting skills, especially tilting with a lance. It could easily be as little as a shouted warning, a thrown rock (or net), a blade turned once with a frogspear or any number of other things. Having said that though, he'd been at war for a year by the ToJ, so should have learned significant fighting skills beyond what he had at Harrenhal.

Evidence against HR:

- if he is the KotLT then there is no reason for the Starks to have heard this story

- he explicitly doesn't have the skills with horse or lance, and says so himself

- he was already offered the opportunity to enter (by Benjen) and turned it down even though he wanted his revenge because he was afraid of making a fool of himself and his people

- Jojen actually hints strongly that the mystery knight was not a Crannogman, right at the start of the story

Evidence for Lyanna Stark: As a girl, she would be shorter than most. However, we know she likes to fight, and that she's a proverbially excellent rider (many times mentioned as the most important factor in the joust). The faces in the weirwoods are more associated with Starks than with crannogmen.

Evidence for Lyanna Stark:

- shes the most proactive player in the story as it is

- she fits the physical requirements (and has no armour of her own)

- the booming voice fits someone deliberately disguising their voice

- she has a touch of the wild wolf and has already aggressively attacked the squires once

- she is noted as an incredible rider and shown fighting in several other places

- Rhaegar was instructed to find the KotLT, says he did not, then awards Lyanna Stark the QoLaB - almost certainly he did find her and this was the only public recognition he could show her to honour her actions (note that although they run off together about a year later, at this time he is focused on the three heads of the dragon with Elia and has no reason to look elsewhere - he is dutiful above all remember, and also that there is not the slightest whisper of anything between them until a year later, other than the public award of QoLaB) - summary; this makes the shck award of QoLaB to an almost unknwn girl from the far north make actual sense

- her being the KotLT and consequently privately meeting Rhaegar provides the foundation of the events of a year later that lead to Robert's Rebellion - metastory wise this is a key foundation point to the whole of ASoIaF.

Evidence against Lyanna Stark:

none

[Ser Arys Redshirt]

Well, corbon, you're well on your way to convincing me. I just figured that of anyone, the only possibles were Lyanna or Howland. Lyanna, per your analysis, does seem more likely. But maybe the gravedigger isn't Sandor, Jon is Ned's son by Wylla, and Stannis really is the Prince That Was Promised. We can't know for certain until George tells us ;)