Jon Connington's next move

[Steinnis]

Assuming that Aegon is real, it will be hard for the Dornish NOT to support him -- Aegon would be Doran's nephew.

You are all saying that Aegon is fake, but what if he's real?

If he was fake I don't see why Varyys told Kevan he is real.

Not saying he is real, but there is a chance that he's real.

I am assuming that Aegon is fake, I'd actually be surprised if he was revealed to be real somehow. There's just too much foreshadowing etc. to suggest otherwise. Plus from the Arianne sample chapter, we learn that Doran thinks he just some imposter.

Is Dorne just supposed to take JC/Varys' word for it? Doran will need some concrete proof, not just someone with Valyrian features.

About Kevan and Varys, Varys is always telling half truths/speaking vaguely he just says 'Aegon' not Targaryen, IIRC.

[Sordelor]

About Kevan and Varys, Varys is always telling half truths/speaking vaguely he just says 'Aegon' not Targaryen, IIRC.

But since Kevan was dying I don't really see why Varys should ly aabout it.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

I have long held that Aegon would be sitting the iron throne by the end of TWOW. The fall of Storm's End only confirmed my belief. Aegon is in prime position for the following reasons:

1. With the fall of Storm's End, Aegon now controls two-thirds of the Stormlands. All that remains are the Marcher lords (Caron, Swann, and Dondarrion). Lord Swann never called his banners, but instead sent each of his sons to fight. He is proud, powerful, and cautious. Beric Dondarrion is dead, so far no one has appeared to take control of their forces. From Dunk & Egg, we know they can muster 4800 men. As for house Caron, Rolland Storm has claimed lordship of the lands and marches. These houses have to guard the Stormlands from the Reach and Dorne. I would estimate their strength to be 8,000-15,000 men. If Connington can defeat the approaching Tyrell army and gain Dornish support, I think they will join him.

2. Dorne has already been discussed and I agree that they will join Aegon instead of waiting on Dany. They will give him an additional 20,000-25,000 men.

3. The Reach has always been one of the most pro-Targaryen kingdoms. They fought for Aerys to the end. Additionally, Aegon I raised house Tyrell far beyond its station. They owe house Targayen much and more. Most importantly, Laswell Peake has told us there are friends in the Reach who will support them and oppose Mace Tyrell. If its major houses like Hightower, Rowan, Oakheart, or Tarly, the Tyrells days could be numbered. There is major man power to be had.

4. The Crownlands are the most pro-Targaryen region in Westeros. From AFFC we know that great lords of Cracklaw Point are still good dragon men. They have not mustered their strength since the Battle of the Trident. The return of Rhaegar's son (real or fake?) and heir is just the thing to get them fired up. They will provide another 20,000 men for Aegon.

5. Aurane Waters is just waiting for an opportunity to unleash his dromonds. Aegon will need sea power to take KL. This is a perfect match.

Everything sets up very nicely for Aegon. With Varys, Lady Nym, and Tyene all on the inside, bet your money on Aegon sitting the Iron Throne by the end of TWOW.

Whether he stays there is the big question.

[Steinnis]

But since Kevan was dying I don't really see why Varys should ly aabout it.

Well, some people chalk it up to the children being in the room while he's speaking to Kevan, I just think it's Varys being indirect.

@The Stallion

1. I don't know if those numbers can be believed, D&E was quite a long time ago. But, of course those lords could join JC nonetheless.

2. Dorne is 50,000 spears strong according to Quentyn, and they were untouched by the WotFK's.

3. You're first point kind of contradicts what you're saying here. Or were you speaking of the Tyrells only when you meant the reach? Either way I'm sure they could win some support in the Reach. The Tyrells/Tarly's are in KL. I'm not sure about the others.

4. I could see crackclaw point declaring for Aegon, but 20,000 men? Why were they never looked to during the WoFK's, if they had those numbers? That could of made a big difference for anyone who sought to win their allegiance.

5. Aurane Waters could definitely provide Aegon with ships, I'll agree there.

With your numbers aside, you raise some good points for Dorne declaring for Aegon. If it's Doran decision I think he might wait it out, but if he dies early, I think Arianne will probably declare for 'Aegon.' I can see him winning the throne rather swiftly, but he could lose it just as easily with the arrival of Dany and co.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Well, some people chalk it up to the children being in the room while he's speaking to Kevan, I just think it's Varys being indirect.

@The Stallion

1. I don't know if those numbers can be believed, D&E was quite a long time ago. But, of course those lords could join JC nonetheless.

2. Dorne is 50,000 spears strong according to Quentyn, and they were untouched by the WotFK's.

3. You're first point kind of contradicts what you're saying here. Or were you speaking of the Tyrells only when you meant the reach? Either way I'm sure they could win some support in the Reach. The Tyrells/Tarly's are in KL. I'm not sure about the others.

4. I could see crackclaw point declaring for Aegon, but 20,000 men? Why were they never looked to during the WoFK's, if they had those numbers? That could of made a big difference for anyone who sought to win their allegiance.

5. Aurane Waters could definitely provide Aegon with ships, I'll agree there.

With your numbers aside, you raise some good points for Dorne declaring for Aegon. If it's Doran decision I think he might wait it out, but if he dies early, I think Arianne will probably declare for 'Aegon.' I can see him winning the throne rather swiftly, but he could lose it just as easily with the arrival of Dany and co.

1. Population tends to grow, not decrease. Aside from Robert's Rebellion, there has been no event that would so radically alter the size and structure of these powerful houses. Most importantly, there are intact.

Furthermore, these houses guard the Stormlands from the Reach and Dorne. They are the first line of defense/offense against those hostile regions and have been for thousands of years.

2. This has been discussed on the board many times. In AFFC Doran tells us that Dorne is the least populous of the Seven Kingdoms and that the other kingdoms believe them to be more powerful than they are. Quentyn could just be towing the party line. Tyrion also thought they mustered 50,000, meaning this is commonly believed, but according to Doran is likely false.

3. Not contradicting at all given the fact that the Tyrells are for all intents and purposes the ruling family of Westeros. Mace Tyrell is not likely to give it all up willingly. With open warfare against Aegon, the ironmen, Stannis, and the Lannisters all but done, several houses in the Reach are likely willing to defy Mace Tyrell in favor of Aegon.

4. As I said, and as we learned from AFFC, they are hardcore dragon men. They fought off the Reach, Stormlands, and Riverlands for thousands of years and only yielded to Aegon and his sisters. They have no love for the Baratheon usurpers who drove away their dragon kings. Remember, they did their fealty directly to the iron throne.

Rhagear had 40,000 men on the Trident:

Dorne - 10,000

surviving royal army - 10,000 (estimation)

Crownlands - 20,000

My numbers and concepts are just fine. You have to go back and do more of the reading from earlier books and it will all make sense to you.

[FC_Lymond]

Some more info: I was looking at some castles to the west of Griffin's Roost today:

Grandview is the home of the Grandisons. Targ loyalists. Harlan Grandison was replaced in Aery's kingsguard by Jaime..

Summerhall was a Targ palace burned a couple generations ago. Rhaegar (Aegon's possible father) often visited the ruins.

Fawton is held by House Cafferen. They are another loyal Targ family.

During Robert's rebellion there was a key battle at Summerhall where Robert beat the houses of Grandison, Cafferen, and Fell before they could join forces. I think they are reasonably powerful. They just haven't played much of a part yet in the series.

So I could easily see these houses coming together for Aegon, and marching to Summerhall. There might be a battle there, but at least Aegon would either get a connection with his father, or find out there is none?

[Steinnis]

1. Population tends to grow, not decrease. Aside from Robert's Rebellion, there has been no event that would so radically alter the size and structure of these powerful houses. Most importantly, there are intact.

Furthermore, these houses guard the Stormlands from the Reach and Dorne. They are the first line of defense/offense against those hostile regions and have been for thousands of years.

2. This has been discussed on the board many times. In AFFC Doran tells us that Dorne is the least populous of the Seven Kingdoms and that the other kingdoms believe them to be more powerful than they are. Quentyn could just be towing the party line. Tyrion also thought they mustered 50,000, meaning this is commonly believed, but according to Doran is likely false.

3. Not contradicting at all given the fact that the Tyrells are for all intents and purposes the ruling family of Westeros. Mace Tyrell is not likely to give it all up willingly. With open warfare against Aegon, the ironmen, Stannis, and the Lannisters all but done, several houses in the Reach are likely willing to defy Mace Tyrell in favor of Aegon.

4. As I said, and as we learned from AFFC, they are hardcore dragon men. They fought off the Reach, Stormlands, and Riverlands for thousands of years and only yielded to Aegon and his sisters. They have no love for the Baratheon usurpers who drove away their dragon kings. Remember, they did their fealty directly to the iron throne.

Rhagear had 40,000 men on the Trident:

Dorne - 10,000

surviving royal army - 10,000 (estimation)

Crownlands - 20,000

My numbers and concepts are just fine. You have to go back and do more of the reading from earlier books and it will all make sense to you.

1. That's fair enough, but I still think 15,000 is a bit of a stretch. Considering they were untouched by the war I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

2. I'm aware that Dorne is said to be the least populous, but they were untouched by the fighting and as you say population tends to increase. They might not have 50,000 i'm just going by what the text implies. I'd say they still have a considerable force and enough to make a difference.

3. Well, Mace was a Targaryen loyalist during RR, with a 'Targaryen' now coming home to reclaim the Throne I could easily see Mace supporting Aegon. The Tyrells need a strong ally as they're alliance with the Lannister's at the moment is fragile at best. The Golden Company seem to believe they will have friends among the Reach. Whether it's through Mace or by overthrowing him I'm sure Aegon can win some support there.

4. I'm not denying that they're Targaryen loyalists, I just don't think they can muster 20,000 fighting men. IDK I've never heard it mentioned in the books that it can gather a force that large.

Dorne never fully backed Aerys during RR. Aerys was suspicious of Dorne that's why he kept Elia and her children close, to ensure their loyalty. I'd say they could raise more than 10,000.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

1. That's fair enough, but I still think 15,000 is a bit of a stretch. Considering they were untouched by the war I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

2. I'm aware that Dorne is said to be the least populous, but they were untouched by the fighting and as you say population tends to increase. They might not have 50,000 i'm just going by what the text implies. I'd say they still have a considerable force and enough to make a difference.

3. Well, Mace was a Targaryen loyalist during RR, with a 'Targaryen' now coming home to reclaim the Throne I could easily see Mace supporting Aegon. The Tyrells need a strong ally as they're alliance with the Lannister's at the moment is fragile at best. The Golden Company seem to believe they will have friends among the Reach. Whether it's through Mace or by overthrowing him I'm sure Aegon can win some support there.

4. I'm not denying that they're Targaryen loyalists, I just don't think they can muster 20,000 fighting men. IDK I've never heard it mentioned in the books that it can gather a force that large.

Dorne never fully backed Aerys during RR. Aerys was suspicious of Dorne that's why he kept Elia and her children close, to ensure their loyalty. I'd say they could raise more than 10,000.

1. Well, I did estimate between 8,000 to 15,000. Anywhere in between is fine with me. I think 12,000 is more than reasonable.

2. I'm going by what Doran tells Arianne in AFFC. You should reread that particular chapter. I would think Doran knows his own forces a bit more than Tyrion or Quentyn.

Because Dorne sends its women to fight, maybe it could field 50,000. But Doran's comments puts that number in doubt. I would say 25,000 men in more than enough to make a difference.

3. I'm assuming you read the ADWD epilogue. Mace believes that Connington has brought home a pretender. He doubts it so much that he sent an army to the Stormlands to retake Storm's End.

Although the Tyrell are relatively lowborn, the other houses of the Reach have been very loyal to them. Aside from intermarriage the other lords have followed Mace's every move. Its easy to see why Mace would think he is secure in his power. Lawell Peake thinks otherwise and it is a reasonable assumption given the region's pro-Targaryen history.

4. Why not? GRRM has said that every kingdom/region can muster at least the amount of men Robb Stark took south (20,000 men). Additionally, they have been strong enough to hold off the Reach, Stormlands, and Riverlands for thousands of years.

I've never said that Dorn can only raise 10,000 men. I said that is the number they sent to aid the Targaryens, under the command of Prince Lewyn Martel.

Rhaegar had 40,000 men on the Trident. It was made up of the men from Dorne (10,000), the remnants of the royal army defeated at the Battle of the Bells (likely 10,000), and the mustered strength of the Crownlands (20,000).

Make perfect sense.

Rhaegar had 40,000 men on the Trident.

[Steinnis]

1. Well, I did estimate between 8,000 to 15,000. Anywhere in between is fine with me. I think 12,000 is more than reasonable.

2. I'm going by what Doran tells Arianne in AFFC. You should reread that particular chapter. I would think Doran knows his own forces a bit more than Tyrion or Quentyn.

Because Dorne sends its women to fight, maybe it could field 50,000. But Doran's comments puts that number in doubt. I would say 25,000 men in more than enough to make a difference.

3. I'm assuming you read the ADWD epilogue. Mace believes that Connington has brought home a pretender. He doubts it so much that he sent an army to the Stormlands to retake Storm's End.

Although the Tyrell are relatively lowborn, the other houses of the Reach have been very loyal to them. Aside from intermarriage the other lords have followed Mace's every move. Its easy to see why Mace would think he is secure in his power. Lawell Peake thinks otherwise and it is a reasonable assumption given the region's pro-Targaryen history.

4. Why not? GRRM has said that every kingdom/region can muster at least the amount of men Robb Stark took south (20,000 men). Additionally, they have been strong enough to hold off the Reach, Stormlands, and Riverlands for thousands of years.

I've never said that Dorn can only raise 10,000 men. I said that is the number they sent to aid the Targaryens, under the command of Prince Lewyn Martel.

Rhaegar had 40,000 men on the Trident. It was made up of the men from Dorne (10,000), the remnants of the royal army defeated at the Battle of the Bells (likely 10,000), and the mustered strength of the Crownlands (20,000).

Make perfect sense.

Rhaegar had 40,000 men on the Trident.

1. Fair enough.

2. I have read that chapter recently, again, I was only going by what the text implies. Quentyn might've been exaggerating or not fully aware of the fighting strength of Dorne. Either way they have an untouched army, upwards of 30,000.

3. I have indeed read ADWD, Mace thinks he's a pretender as does Doran. Yet the outcome of the trials could be the deciding factor for who Mace decides to declare for. If Cersei is found guilty, the Lannisters are done, and Mace will need an strong ally to stand beside him, with an actual claim to the throne.

4. I remember him saying each major house could raise upwards of 20,000. I don't think the lords of Crackclaw, Crabbs? could raise that number. Of course, I could be wrong, it just seems unlikely to me.

Agreed about the strength of Rhaegar's army on the Trident. I never disputed the numbers, just mentioned that Dorne never put their full strength behind the Mad King.

[Agravayne]

Dorne hasn't been bled by the War of the Five (Six) Kings, but it's hard to say that the Reach has as well. Dorne has held of the Reach and the Stormlands by virtue of geography (the desert).

Tyrell isn't going to bend the knee to Aegon. His daughter is the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms and he is the King's Hand. His grandson is going to sit the Iron Throne after he is gone. No way he lets that go. On the other hand, if Margarey's latest husband should perish yet again....

Cersei (and by extension Tommen) are going to be on trial. Should she loose, Tommen would also lose -- her incest is part of the accusatioins against her. That would make Tommen a bastard and give Margarey every excuse to set aside the unconsumated marriage.

Aegon also follows the faith. Dorne would probably follow him regardless of any marriage to Arianne.

[Tini]

Incest is part of the accusations against Cersei. Tommen's paternity is not. Ser Kevan and the HS agreed on that. Even if Cersei is found guilty, Tommen can still claim that he is Robert's son. Robert's legitimate son.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

1. Fair enough.

2. I have read that chapter recently, again, I was only going by what the text implies. Quentyn might've been exaggerating or not fully aware of the fighting strength of Dorne. Either way they have an untouched army, upwards of 30,000.

3. I have indeed read ADWD, Mace thinks he's a pretender as does Doran. Yet the outcome of the trials could be the deciding factor for who Mace decides to declare for. If Cersei is found guilty, the Lannisters are done, and Mace will need an strong ally to stand beside him, with an actual claim to the throne.

4. I remember him saying each major house could raise upwards of 20,000. I don't think the lords of Crackclaw, Crabbs? could raise that number. Of course, I could be wrong, it just seems unlikely to me.

Agreed about the strength of Rhaegar's army on the Trident. I never disputed the numbers, just mentioned that Dorne never put their full strength behind the Mad King.

2. If you are going by what the text implies, 30,000 is a possibility, but 50,000 is highly unlikely.

3. Mace will not yield willingly. He has no reason to believe Aegon is real. If he is threatened with civil war in the Reach and sees the writing on the wall, he will bend. But he has armies on the field that must be bested first.

4. Well, don't think of it only as Crackclaw point. Think of it as the Crownlands. That means all of the noble houses of the region. It will seem more likely then.

There are maps online that show the Seven Kingdoms with their actual borders. It will help to view one of them.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

Jon waits for Dorne at Storm's End and hears of Tarly approaching with an army.

He defeats/ parlays with Tarly and either way, he joins his side, along with maybe Rowan.

At King's Landing, Cersei wins her trial, but Marg loses hers. Mace orders his men to attack the Faith to save his daughter. The Faith Militant runs to Aegon.

Men flock to Aegon's banner and he gains a lot of support.

Now he either goes straight to King's Landing, or he goes to Oldtown to defend it against Euron Greyjoy. He is then blessed by the High Septon there, and marches to King's Landing.

He then take the throne, but all Lannister nobles are retreating to the west before they take it. Aegon declares Tarly Lord Paramount of the Reach and Warden of the South.

Dany lands in the Vale and stirs up some trouble.

Aegon goes to meet her.

They talk, Dany realizes he's a fake, and they have a battle. Dany hears of the Others coming and either rushes to the North after defeating Aegon or leaves him be until the Others are dealt with. My vote is on Aegon falls in battle and his lords defect in the aftermath.

[Steinnis]

2. If you are going by what the text implies, 30,000 is a possibility, but 50,000 is highly unlikely.

3. Mace will not yield willingly. He has no reason to believe Aegon is real. If he is threatened with civil war in the Reach and sees the writing on the wall, he will bend. But he has armies on the field that must be bested first.

4. Well, don't think of it only as Crackclaw point. Think of it as the Crownlands. That means all of the noble houses of the region. It will seem more likely then.

There are maps online that show the Seven Kingdoms with their actual borders. It will help to view one of them.

2. Dorne's forces are enough to make a difference in the upcoming war. I think we'll both agree.

3. Both our cases are entirely speculatory, and could end up either way.

4. If you're talking Crownlands as a whole then that seems more reasonable, yet you only mentioned Crackclaw Point in the beginning. That's why I thought it unlikely that they (Cracklaw men) could raise a host of that number.

I am well informed on the story and geography of Westeros, although I think our discussion has ran its course, I still appreciate your input.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

2. Dorne's forces are enough to make a difference in the upcoming war. I think we'll both agree.

3. Both our cases are entirely speculatory, and could end up either way.

4. If you're talking Crownlands as a whole then that seems more reasonable, yet you only mentioned Crackclaw Point in the beginning. That's why I thought it unlikely that they (Cracklaw men) could raise a host of that number.

I am well informed on the story and geography of Westeros, although I think our discussion has ran its course, I still appreciate your input.

I think it ran its course the minute you questioned my assessments, but I do appreciate your efforts....good day to you sir.

[Napyura]

how do we know that they hold Storm's End? From what I've read we only know of impending assault and battle of 3 armies to ensue along with the fact that Aegon is currently rulling from Griffins Roost and that most of Islands and Cape Wrath have been conquered, and that Stepstones are lost to Aurane, no mention of SE.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

how do we know that they hold Storm's End? From what I've read we only know of impending assault and battle of 3 armies to ensue along with the fact that Aegon is currently rulling from Griffins Roost and that most of Islands and Cape Wrath have been conquered, and that Stepstones are lost to Aurane, no mention of SE.

Its from one of the Arianne spoilers.

[ejhawman]

Many good points and scenarios here. I favor Aegon taking a breather after taking SE to send ravens proclaiming his return and asking for allegiance. This also buys time for the rest of the GC to gather on his position, and Doran to decide his position.

Doran is skeptical of Aegon, and may try to remain neutral. GC elements will approach him for his allegiance, but he may send them on to SE. His health not being too good, he may turn up dead one morning of his gout, though it is equally possible Arianne or one of the Sand Vipers, or other agents at court in Sunspear, may dispose of him to put the decision in Arianne's hands, with her being more likely to go with Aegon, exacting a betrothal to her as her price.

If, as is claimed, the majority of Targ loyalists are close at hand to SE, my fears that Aegon may recieve a lukewarm welcome at best may be shaky; this will be a test of how much enthusiasm for the Targ name remains in the 7K. If he garners little support, Mace will feel confident in opposing him and Varys will be stifled. OTOH, if much support materializes, Mace may find it convenient to keep his doubts to himself (perhaps he was only claiming to be doubtful to Kevan, and we have not yet seen his honest opinion) and go over to Aegon. This becomes more likely if if either queen loses her trial; if Maraery hangs, Mace will side with Aegon for revenge on the Lannisters, and if Cersei loses her head the Lannisters no longer have major power players in KL and Mace may feel safe in moving in for the kill.

The mention of the Sand Snakes in KL in this context brings to mind a scenario I had not considered before. I had figured Tommen had a good chance of dying of fever or something by the end of TWOW; now I see the "or something" could well be one of the Sand Snakes. They would come with relatively undetectable poisons that can be passed off as sickness - indeed, Martin may write it in such a way as to leave it open to interpretation whether Tommen's death was natural or induced. In practical effect, it will not matter; with Tommen out of the way, Aegon will have a green light to move on KL. If Doran is still alive at this point, he may silence his doubts as well and pile on.

Which leaves JC. He ultimately should die in battle, and perhaps in dying reveal his greyscale and instruct his men to build him a pyre. The question is where that battle is fought, and against who; either in front of Storm's End against the Tyrell host, or in the Riverlands against the Lannisters. Low but not negligible odds of being in the northern Riverlands against the Others.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Many good points and scenarios here. I favor Aegon taking a breather after taking SE to send ravens proclaiming his return and asking for allegiance. This also buys time for the rest of the GC to gather on his position, and Doran to decide his position.

Doran is skeptical of Aegon, and may try to remain neutral. GC elements will approach him for his allegiance, but he may send them on to SE. His health not being too good, he may turn up dead one morning of his gout, though it is equally possible Arianne or one of the Sand Vipers, or other agents at court in Sunspear, may dispose of him to put the decision in Arianne's hands, with her being more likely to go with Aegon, exacting a betrothal to her as her price.

If, as is claimed, the majority of Targ loyalists are close at hand to SE, my fears that Aegon may recieve a lukewarm welcome at best may be shaky; this will be a test of how much enthusiasm for the Targ name remains in the 7K. If he garners little support, Mace will feel confident in opposing him and Varys will be stifled. OTOH, if much support materializes, Mace may find it convenient to keep his doubts to himself (perhaps he was only claiming to be doubtful to Kevan, and we have not yet seen his honest opinion) and go over to Aegon. This becomes more likely if if either queen loses her trial; if Maraery hangs, Mace will side with Aegon for revenge on the Lannisters, and if Cersei loses her head the Lannisters no longer have major power players in KL and Mace may feel safe in moving in for the kill.

The mention of the Sand Snakes in KL in this context brings to mind a scenario I had not considered before. I had figured Tommen had a good chance of dying of fever or something by the end of TWOW; now I see the "or something" could well be one of the Sand Snakes. They would come with relatively undetectable poisons that can be passed off as sickness - indeed, Martin may write it in such a way as to leave it open to interpretation whether Tommen's death was natural or induced. In practical effect, it will not matter; with Tommen out of the way, Aegon will have a green light to move on KL. If Doran is still alive at this point, he may silence his doubts as well and pile on.

Which leaves JC. He ultimately should die in battle, and perhaps in dying reveal his greyscale and instruct his men to build him a pyre. The question is where that battle is fought, and against who; either in front of Storm's End against the Tyrell host, or in the Riverlands against the Lannisters. Low but not negligible odds of being in the northern Riverlands against the Others.

Well, there is a Tyrell army on the way to invade the Stormlands and crush Aegon. JC plans to meet it in the field. If JC wins (which I expect he will) it will be the final sign for Targaryen loyalist to rally at SE.

[Steinnis]

I think it ran its course the minute you questioned my assessments, but I do appreciate your efforts....good day to you sir.

Hah, assessments are not fact so they're open to discussion and debate. The only thing I questioned was where you were getting these numbers from, and they're hardly written in stone. Nonetheless, I think we're done here.