Benjen is a Leader of the GNC and the Hooded Man

[bemused]

OK.. I've expounded on this at length on many threads , but things tend to get lost when they're posted in the middle of long threads , or threads of multiple incarnations - and I don't know that I've ever put it all together all in one place. My thoughts have evolved from some I've expressed on other threads - and there are some new details, as well. I'm posting them in two parts here on this thread.

Part One - Winterfell , Benjen, the thoughts of Bran , Jon and more

About Winterfell

Very early in AGoT the idea is planted , through Bran ,that a secret passage or passages exist under Winterfell... Then there are the Stark crypts that have great importance to the Stark family as resting place, historical reference and something a little harder to define .. they evoke a sense of "place" that is deeply felt among the Starks ( and sometimes evokes a deep sense of unease and not belonging felt by visitors other than Starks ). Throughout the novels are scattered references to the lower levels of the crypts being partially collapsed and too dangerous to visit. But the level that people do visit is vast and extends beyond the boundaries of the castle above.

Secret escape routes were a necessary feature of medieval castles in our world,for the use of the ruling family in case the castle was taken.... It stands to reason that one exists in WF.

Winterfell was raised by Bran the Builder, as was the Wall , and there are a number of references to magic being used in the raising of the Wall. Just one is from ASoS, p.770 paperback . When Bran and his companions meet Sam at the Nightfort , Meera asks Sam why Coldhands didn't come with him . He explains..."The Wall. The Wall is more than just ice and stone , he ( Coldhands) said. There are spells woven into it ... old ones, and strong. He cannot pass beyond the wall." ... Bran the Builder supposedly raised Storm's End, as well . It , too, is reputed to be protected by spells ( preventing magic from passing it's walls) ....And so it stands to reason that spells were employed at WF, and probably spells specific to WF's needs.

There are a few hints that I suspect will turn out to be parallels when all is written. The first is the Black Gate. Again from ASoS, p.769.. " " There's a gate," said fat Sam, " a hidden gate as old as the wall itself..." " ..The Reeds ask if they'll find it at the bottom of the well... " Sam shook his head. " You won't. I have to take you. " " ... asked why , he repeats ..." You won't find it. If you did, it wouldn't open. Not for you. .."

We know the Black gate only responds to a sworn brother of the NW. But once opened, that sworn brother can pass others through..vouch for them as it were. Sam passes four people and a direwolf through... On their own , Sam says Bran's party wouldn't have found it , although the route is direct, one that could be easily described. ..There is obviously some sort of magical concealment about the gate.. a glamour , of sorts.

With the use of CoTF magic being linked to Bran the Builder's projects and BR/CoTF's interest in Starks, I think we should accept that there is a magical context to " There must always be a Stark in Winterfell " , not just a political stance , or everyday family feelings of proprietorship . It's deeper , more portentous than , e.g. , " A Lannister always pays his debts " ... In ACoK, even a shocked Tyrion , just having learned of Theon taking WF , thinks , " The Lord of Winterfell would always be a Stark. " ( Would , not should ?) .... Remembering the castle itself he thinks , "..there had been a great strength in those stones , a sense that within those walls a man might feel safe . " As one of GRRM's more perceptive characters , Tyrion could be tuning in to more than he knows.

The second possible parallel is found in Arya's escape from the fire at the holdfast ( ACoK) She escapes through a tunnel which winds on for a long way before emerging on the shore of the God's Eye. It's doubtful that anyone entering or exiting the tunnel at the lakeshore would be seen by a lookout from the watchtower at the holdfast.

If there's any truth to the Bael the Bard story , logic dictates that Bael and his love must have had a way to feed themselves , through the long months of her pregnancy . Sneaking out to raid the kitchens would be far too risky , so it makes sense that Bael must have had some safer way to get out to hunt and forage ... and to eventually depart WF .

Putting ourselves in Bran the Builder's shoes ( remembering the primary purpose of a secret passage is usually a swift escape ) and looking at the map , a tunnel toward the south and the White Knife would seem the most practical route. It may be dubious that the passage would travel all the way to the White Knife , but BtB definitely built on a grand scale, so it is likely the passage would have continued a good long way toward it, beyond the point where a besieging army's scouts might expect to find fugitives . And given his use of magic elsewhere, it would be only practical for Bran to put up some magical barriers preventing the passage being used , except by those it was intended for.... In the case of Arya's escape tunnel , even Yoren has his recruits drag a wagon on top of the trap door , to prevent anyone else getting in...Much more sophisticated security measures would be available to the magic-weilding Bran the builder.

One other possible parallel ... BtB was assisted with magic by the CoTF. Think of the way their cave is warded, with their " back door " far away and no doubt warded as well... Though they may take sides in a fight , they have neither the numbers , nor the physical power to be very effective on the battlefield . They lived in wooden tree cities in the distant past - not very defensible from fire or axes . Their cave seems at once refuge , crypt and religious site , with the greenseers nestled in the roots of the weirwoods... But Winterfell is a castle , not only a refuge or spiritual centre and is designed with warfare and seiges in mind. It's even possible that any secret passage is designed for more than just escape by a handful of people, doubling as a sort of long distance sally port ... In the most extreme necessity, it might be very useful to be able to sneak fighters out to attack besiegers from the rear.. and even if such action revealed the secret to the loyal forces using it .. if no one ( except a Stark ) could find it afterwards, or gain access even if they did.. it wouldn't matter much... It might not have to be used for very long stretches of time , and with time , what was once knowledge gets reduced to song and legend , then to old wives' tales , to vague rumours and eventually ,is entirely forgotten .

ETA: It's also worth noting that the CoTF cave connects to a great underground system of caves and tunnels. Was WF designed to replicate it ? Could it even be connected ?

As for artifacts that might be hidden in the crypts , there's nothing in particular that I feel must be there , but all sorts of things might be, to my mind .. from proofs of Jon's parentage secreted in Lyanna's tomb, to very old things ... like a particular sword or the Horn of Joramun, etc.,etc. that have been so often discussed. But anything very old , or with magical properties would probably be in the lower, and therefore ( in my mind ) warded levels... Personally , I lean to the "Sam's horn is the Horn of Joramun" line of thought. It appeals to me that it should be a battered , broken sort of thing that only someone with specific knowledge and/or special attributes would be able to mend and use... a horn that most people wouldn't give a second glance .

About Benjen

There's at once both little and a lot to be said about Benjen. The "little" comes in the few times we meet him and in reports of his movements given by other characters. The "lot" comes through dreams ,opinions , the feelings of other characters - and by implication and logic.

Character-wise , we know he's practical and intelligent ( plan to repopulate the gift ), responsible and serious , yet open -minded ( one of the first , even on the Wall , to suspect the return of the others ), and still ( from AGoT) , " there was always a hint of laughter in his blue-grey eyes " ... He's blunt with Tyrion and doesn't seem to have a lot of patience with his sight-seeing trip. He's firm and no-nonsense with Jon at the wall , but both jocular and empathetic with him at the feast in WF. He is kindly and attentive to Bran. It seems he's almost universally respected as First Ranger ( with the possible exception of Alliser Thorne .. and Thoren Smallwood , who wants to be promoted to First Ranger ).

There is still considerable mystery shrouding Benjen's past , which , when revealed , is bound to shed more light on his character...e.g. , the extent of his involvement in the "kidnapping"of Lyanna. ( Elopement ? ) ... Considering Barbrey Dustin's dubious confessions to Theon , questions remain as to how close the Ryswell siblings and the Stark siblings all actually were .. not just Brandon and (supposedly ) Barbrey ..One way or another , all that generation of Stark siblings come in to Barbrey's story... except for Benjen . Is she purposely deflecting attention from him ( in much the same way that she never mentions her dead sister , only Domeric ) ? ... For two years , Benjen served as her de facto liege , the person to whom she'd have to turn for help, to whom she'd raise concerns, to whom she'd turn to discuss news from the war.. What sort of interactions did Benjen have with the other northern houses when he was the Stark in Winterfell ? Given that Ned and Benjen seem so like-minded in practical matters , like the re-settling of the gift , I think it's reasonable to assume that , like Ned , he would have been attentive to those supporting him, whether household members or bannermen, and kept in regular contact with all of them.

What we know of Benjen's movements after he went ranging is limited . At the time the NW discovered Othor's and Jafer's bodies , Benjen had been gone almost 6 months.... Mormont tells Jon that Benjen's trail has been traced to the northwest of CB , and referring to the Journeys map in the Map Folio, his last mark was found just a bit further north and west of the Fist, but within comparative proximity to the cave of the CoTF... Craster , also in reasonable proximity , claims not to have seen him ...and that's pretty well it, as far as any concrete references go.

Bran , Jon and More

Without saying so explicitly , Mormont seems to have been looking to Benjen to eventually take his place. As he tells Tyrion in AGoT ( when Benjen's return is already overdue ), he's feeling the burden of his age and his office , but despairs at the thought of letting his command pass to the likes of Bowen Marsh or Alliser Thorne. It's probably safe to read his determination to find out what happened to Benjen as not only wanting to know what enemies the NW was facing , but desperately hoping to find the man he saw as his successor.

It's obvious from the actions of The Children and Bloodraven that Starks are inextricably linked to the fight against the Others. As we progress through the series , not only does it become increasingly more likely that there really must be a Stark in Winterfell , but judging by the number of Stark LCs ( some of them only boys ), having Starks on the Wall is pretty important , too. Though BR/CoTF can't march an army onto the field , no effort is too much to try to place a Stark at each bastion of anti-Other power. Bran is at the cave , Jon is at the Wall , and I believe they have rescued Benjen and sent him back to WF, to orchestrate or assist in it's retaking and restoration ( and in preventing a complete lapse of Stark inhabitants). Though there's no direct mention of it, the oblique references to Benjen , the supposedly offhand comments , possible misdirections , the parallel scenarios and the pathways that are revealed through comparison and logic , make me think it's unlikely that he isn't there.

In ASoS at Queenscrown , Bran remembers .... " The ghost castles , Old Nan had named them. Maester Luwin had once made Bran learn the names of every one of the forts along the wall. That had been hard. There were nineteen of them all told , though no more than seventeen had ever been manned at any one time. At the feast in honor of King Robert's visit to Winterfell, Bran had recited the names for his Uncle Benjen , east to west and then west to east. Benjen Stark had laughed and said , " You know them better than I do, Bran. Perhaps you should be First Ranger. I'll stay here in your place. " "... I'll stay here in your place.

When he learns his uncle has disappeared Bran says " The children will help him "... " The Chidren of the Forest "... and later , when trying to convince Jojen to make for Castle Black , he argues , "But my father was a friend of the Night's Watch , and my uncle is First Ranger . He might know where the three eyed crow lives. ..." - so , Bran still thinks of BJ as alive..

Nor can Jon bring himself to believe Benjen is dead , even when pretty well everyone else does , but it seems something more than just clinging to hope... It's a bit more complex in Jon's case , there are some interesting ambiguities... First, when he goes to see Benjen off , resenting being left behind , he " remembered the things that Tyrion Lannister told him on the kingsroad, and in his mind's eye he saw Ben Stark lying dead , his blood red on the snow. The thought made him sick. What was he becoming ? " Jon had been quite shocked at Tyrion's confession, but perhaps this was just the momentary angry imagining of a 14 yr. old feeling resentful and abandoned. However , Jon doesn't generally seem too suggestable , so.. I'll be interested to see if it was true premonition ,and what he saw was Benjen apparently dead, preceding a rescue. We'll see..it could be either..

A meatier example is found in ASoS in Jon's dream following the Thenn attack. It operates on multiple levels. One the one hand , it reveals Jon's insecurities ... the stone Kings mutter that it's not his place , etc. etc...But we know BR can influence dreams and we can see that Jon's being informed about the red wedding ( the feast he's excluded from ..the drums ..the blood spattered grey wolf ). He calls out to people he knows or believes to be dead. His father , Bran and Rickon ..people about whom the world has been misinformed , in one way or another. He calls out to Benjen , whom the world believes is dead..There's so much more that could be said about the twists and turns in this dream - and there have been whole threads devoted to it - but the question here is ... Is Jon being shown that he should be expecting to find Benjen in the crypts ( but a live Benjen , not a dead one ) ? .. Not much later in the story , his inner thoughts reveal that down deep , Jon still feels Benjen to be alive somewhere ( not a thought, or even a belief , but a sense ) ..and we know that through his Ghost dreams , he's experienced a sense , an inner awareness of pack members far away .. including their surroundings.

Part two to follow soon - Benjen and the GNC , The HM, Motives and Agenda

ETA: Oops ! Just discovered there will be 3 parts..due to plans ganging a-gley.

ETA again... A-a-a-and that will be four parts ( and I think that's all .)

Part 2- post #30 , Part 3 - post #93 , Part 4 - post #132

[The Raging Bull]

Some interesting points. I like the idea of a passage under Winterfell. I too believe Benjen is alive, however I cannot decide what part he will have to play in the books to come. The Starks have to oldest blood in the whole of Westerosi, and some of the magic of the past Starks still remain with the warging etc. The mystery surrounding the lower levels of Winterfells crypts have always interested me, and again i believe and hope they are explored in the next book(s). I cannot decide whether the BR/Cotf, will have something to do with Benjen and his story but it seems unlikely a man could survive beyond the wall on his own for all that time.

[KnightoftheN64]

Excellent post OP, very well thought out and well analyzed. Can't wait for part two!

[theriveryeti]

I look forward to reading part 2, but it seems to me this scenario would have Benjen putting his responsibilities as a Stark ahead of his duties with the Night's Watch.

[Joe Pine]

Well done.

[direwienerdog]

Benjen being dead always struck me as false. Him being the hooded man is intriguing. The only trace of him are the hidden obsidian blades and broken horn Sam finds. And that might not be his doing. I refuse to think he's dead til I see a dead body.

[Roland Deschain of Gilead]

Great post. Can't wait to see how you link him in the GNC.

On the subject of the secret escape from Winterfell, I always thought that there was one, and that they escape from the Wolf's Den in White Harbour.

...I know it's probably seen as too far, I just thought it odd that the cave was named that, and apparently under the control of the Starks for thousands of years before the Manderlys turned up, despite it being a large distance away from Winterfell.

Am I alone in thinking that?

[brut]

Recently I proposed the theory that the WF pool may actually be flooding the CotF cave system under WF. This is based in part on the quote from Osha that the pool may actually have no bottom, which I assume is indicative of the deep underground passages. If that is the case, then having a sort of naturally formed underground escape rout (probably along the subterranean sleeve of White Knife) would be quite logical to assume.

My personal assumption is that if the Hooded Man were Benjen, Theon would have recognized him during the encounter (which we don't really see). Emotionally, I want it to be Benjen as his role being Stark is more important than being the NW at this point of narrative. But I also realize that having him somewhere close to the Wall opens up more possibilities for the plot to develop, while having him part of the GNC is a one way street.

That said, waiting for the Part2 of the OP's thoughts.

ETA: Typos

[Mr. Wolf]

i like the theory that Benjen is the the Hooded Man. Assuming Ben knows the ins and outs of WF it would make sense that he could gain access to WF and move around unnoticed.

Not sure if he is the leader of the GNC though, but definitely a participant. The GNC can only exist because of the Red Wedding, I doubt Benjen was close enough to all the intrigue and politics that lead up to the RW and the events afterward to have coordinated a GNC.

I also doubt we see much more of the CotF, my guess is they continue to aid Bran and Co. in their northern adventures. GRRM has stated that we will go very far north in the next book. I would expect the CotF to be playing a role in that PoV. I don't see them being involved in the GNC or help Varys as some have proposed.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Benjen being dead always struck me as false. Him being the hooded man is intriguing. The only trace of him are the hidden obsidian blades and broken horn Sam finds. And that might not be his doing. I refuse to think he's dead til I see a dead body.

Jon finds that stuff (led by Ghost) IIRC... Not trying to nitpick I just want to keep details from the show from mixing w/ our book details here. Can anyone clear this up?

[alienarea]

A few thoughts:

If Bran the Builder build the Wall and Winterfell, and had help from the CotF, he built an escape tunnel leading to the north. I haven't figured it out properly, but have a feeling that Bael the Bard, Gendel's children, Joramun and the Stark in Winterfell aligning against the Nights King, and the underground river in Bran's current cave are part of the same jigsaw. Is there a tunnel from Winterfell to some place north of the wall?

That would fit with the Nightwatch cloak found near the Fist being Benjen's. It is a cloak who hasn't rotten, so rather new. Who is missing? Benjen. Are the cloak and the obsidian a message to Jon: I'm safe with the CotF?

If Benjen left his cloak, he either needs a substitute, or he goes to a warmer place like a cave, or he dies freezing. If he had died they should have found his body near the Fist. Ghost would have smelled it.

Not to derail the thread, but I wonder whether the Fist of the First Men and Winterfell thematically belong together like the first men showed their fist and winter fell.

Maybe you bring it up in part two, but I speculated a while ago that Benjen was being contacted by Bloodraven while he was the Stark in Winterfell, knew what was coming, and then took the black when Ned returned from the war to follow Bloodraven's path?

[Steve Moss II]

The Starks have to oldest blood in the whole of Westerosi, and some of the magic of the past Starks still remain with the warging etc. The mystery surrounding the lower levels of Winterfells crypts have always interested me, and again i believe and hope they are explored in the next book(s). I cannot decide whether the BR/Cotf, will have something to do with Benjen and his story but it seems unlikely a man could survive beyond the wall on his own for all that time.

The Starks have the second oldest blood in all of Westeros, as they go back 8,000 years. But the Daynes go back 10,000. Supposedly.

I also want Jon/Bran to be snooping around the WF crypts. Too many mysteries, not enough resolution.

[Roland Deschain of Gilead]

Jon finds that stuff (led by Ghost) IIRC... Not trying to nitpick I just want to keep details from the show from mixing w/ our book details here. Can anyone clear this up?

Yes Jon finds them. I was also under the impression myself that they had been there a lot longer, and probably weren't left by Benjen (Where the fuck would he get them from anyway).

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Yes Jon finds them. I was also under the impression myself that they had been there a lot longer, and probably weren't left by Benjen (Where the fuck would he get them from anyway).

Thanks for the confirmation, it does seem strange... as the OP says the cloak wasn't "rotten" (please post text OP on finding the cloak) but I wouldn't expect it to be buried in the snow where it is always cold. But then again, what do I know about the decomposition of cloaks, and horns wrapped in cloaks? :dunno:

[bemused]

Ghost leads Jon to them. They are old ( certainly the horn is ) but the NW cloak they are wrapped in is not. It's wet , but the fabric is sound and not faded. ( I'll find the text later )... He would get them from the CoTF , of course. In the distant past, they had always supplied obsidian weapons to the NW.

ETA: ..That was quicker than I expected ..

From ACoK , p .517-18.. Ghost digs up the bundle...Jon wonders " Had Ghost uncovered some ancient cache of the children of the forest , buried here for thousands of years ? " ..followed by a description of the contents..then , he "..pulled up a corner of the cloth the weapons had been wrapped in , rubbing it between his fingers. Good wool, thick , a double weave, damp, but not rotted. It could not have been long in the ground. And it was dark. He siezed a handful and pulled it close to the torch. Not dark. Black.

Even before Jon stood and shook it out , he knew what he had : the black cloak of a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch ."..( GRRM's Italics )

[Learn3things]

I think Benjen is Coldhands

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Ghost leads Jon to them. They are old ( certainly the horn is ) but the NW cloak they are wrapped in is not. It's wet , but the fabric is sound and not faded. ( I'll find the text later )... He would get them from the CoTF , of course. In the distant past, they had always supplied obsidian weapons to the NW.

ETA: ..That was quicker than I expected ..

From ACoK , p .517-18.. Ghost digs up the bundle...Jon wonders " Had Ghost uncovered some ancient cache of the children of the forest , buried here for thousands of years ? " ..followed by a description of the contents..then , he "..pulled up a corner of the cloth the weapons had been wrapped in , rubbing it between his fingers. Good wool, thick , a double weave, damp, but not rotted. It could not have been long in the ground. And it was dark. He siezed a handful and pulled it close to the torch. Not dark. Black.

Even before Jon stood and shook it out , he knew what he had : the black cloak of a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch ."..( GRRM's Italics )

Thanks for posting the text! :bowdown: I have lent out my copy of AGoT. Very interesting...

[Joe Pine]

i like the theory that Benjen is the the Hooded Man. Assuming Ben knows the ins and outs of WF it would make sense that he could gain access to WF and move around unnoticed.

Not sure if he is the leader of the GNC though, but definitely a participant. The GNC can only exist because of the Red Wedding, I doubt Benjen was close enough to all the intrigue and politics that lead up to the RW and the events afterward to have coordinated a GNC.

I also doubt we see much more of the CotF, my guess is they continue to aid Bran and Co. in their northern adventures. GRRM has stated that we will go very far north in the next book. I would expect the CotF to be playing a role in that PoV. I don't see them being involved in the GNC or help Varys as some have proposed.

I'm unsure about Benjen as the hooded man. For that to work, he'd need to go north, then south. Would he have went south after leaving the dragon glass and horn (where did he get them?) or later? Going south before the Old Bear's great ranging or after Stannis's intervention?

I dunno. Seems strange.

[redriver]

Great post and theory.My only real concern,which another poster mentioned above is about Benjen reneging on his vows?Will come back later with a more detailed analysis but looking forward to part 2 already.

[Mr. Wolf]

Great post and theory.My only real concern,which another poster mentioned above is about Benjen reneging on his vows?Will come back later with a more detailed analysis but looking forward to part 2 already.

:agree: