Audrey Arryn Posted September 12, 2013 Author Share Posted September 12, 2013 I dont get how Dany is obvious, maybe to people on the forum but not outside readers, Jon also had a dream with a flaming red sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 The KG were protecting Jon because he was King, and the targ dynasty hadn't fallen yet because Robert hadn't made Baratheon the royal family yet. If Jon was born a prince then that means the KG shouldn't have been there.Yes, but we don't know exact moment of Jon's birth. He was born around Sack of KL, meaning that Aerys and Aegon was alive at the moment of his birth, or they were dead. Whatever, once the news came, he was the King. And even if he is born as Prince, he is first in line, and KG is supposed to be there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 The KG were protecting Jon because he was King, and the targ dynasty hadn't fallen yet because Robert hadn't made Baratheon the royal family yet. If Jon was born a prince then that means the KG shouldn't have been there.We dont know the precise timing of Jon's birth. He could have been born a prince and when Aerys and Aegon were killed only then did he become king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenerationx Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 I dont get how Dany is obvious, maybe to people on the forum but not outside readers, Jon also had a dream with a flaming red sword.Dany is obvious because she's an exiled Targaryen fighting for her birthright, and has 3 dragons. If that's not obvious, I don't know what is.Yes but the red sword is part of the Azor Ahai prophecy. We have not gotten confirmation in the text nor from GRRM that TPTWP and AA are the same. So you could maybe argue that it's "obvious" that Jon is AA based on that, but it doesn't currently have to do with TPTWP prophecy, that we know of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Arryn Posted September 12, 2013 Author Share Posted September 12, 2013 Yes, but we don't know exact moment of Jon's birth. He was born around Sack of KL, meaning that Aerys and Aegon was alive at the moment of his birth, or they were dead. Whatever, once the news came, he was the King. And even if he is born as Prince, he is first in line, and KG is supposed to be there...HOw is he first in line if he was born a prince? The King's guard number one duty is to protect the King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Arryn Posted September 12, 2013 Author Share Posted September 12, 2013 Dany is obvious because she's an exiled Targaryen fighting for her birthright, and has 3 dragons. If that's not obvious, I don't know what is.Yes but the red sword is part of the Azor Ahai prophecy. We have not gotten confirmation in the text nor from GRRM that TPTWP and AA are the same. So you could maybe argue that it's "obvious" that Jon is AA based on that, but it doesn't currently have to do with TPTWP prophecy, that we know of.Dany isnt obvious because we didn't know A prince that was promised applied to females until Aemon said it.Also I think GRRM said they are the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenerationx Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Dany isnt obvious because we didn't know A prince that was promised applied to females until Aemon said it.Also I think GRRM said they are the same.No, he didn't. The fan who made that claim has since retracted it. GRRM has never answered that question.The fact that Aemon outright stated it in the text is the most convincing reason of all that she's not it. Being "given" the answer in the first half of the book to me makes it a big red herring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Dany isnt obvious because we didn't know A prince that was promised applied to females until Aemon said it.Also I think GRRM said they are the same.Aemon has been wrong before regarding TPtwP prophecy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Arryn Posted September 12, 2013 Author Share Posted September 12, 2013 No, he didn't. The fan who made that claim has since retracted it. GRRM has never answered that question.The fact that Aemon outright stated it in the text is the most convincing reason of all that she's not it. Being "given" the answer in the first half of the book to me makes it a big red herring.One can argue during that same timeline Mel said all she sees is Snow when asked for AAR so Jon is obvious aswell based on that.I can agree both Dany and Jon are obvious, but I dont know why people deny Jon is obvious aswell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 I was wondering how long it would take before someone tried to co-opt the "three heads, one person" idea and make it about Dany. Surprised it took this long. As for the word "prince," I wouldn't take it too literally (as in, it's missing the forest for the trees debating whether Jon qualifies as a prince). The gender thing comes in because prince and dragon are apparently the same word in Valyrian, and dragons are genderless. But if you read it as "the dragon that was promised," all it really has to mean is, "the Targaryen that was promised." I also fail to see how Dany isn't far and away the most obvious candidate here. Jon is only a viable/logical candidate mainly to people who have really analyzed the material, whereas the text literally comes out and says, "it's Dany." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 HOw is he first in line if he was born a prince? The King's guard number one duty is to protect the King.OK, here is what most likely chronologically happened:1. Lyanna got pregnant with Rhaegar2. Rhaegar ordered KGs to protect her and future child3. Rhaegar dies4. Sack of KL5. Jon is born at the time6. News come to KGs7. Battle of ToJSo, there is possibility that Jon was born while Aerys and Aegon were alive, and they protected the prince, because they believed Aerys and Aegon are safe with other members of KG, but with the news of deaths of Aerys and Aegon, Jon becomes their King, and he has priority over Viserys. I don't know what is so difficult to understand here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 One can argue during that same timeline Mel said all she sees is Snow when asked for AAR so Jon is obvious aswell based on that.I can agree both Dany and Jon are obvious, but I dont know why people deny Jon is obvious aswell.Big damn difference between Melisandre making an observation and Aemon OUTRIGHT SAYING it's Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Arryn Posted September 12, 2013 Author Share Posted September 12, 2013 OK, here is what most likely chronologically happened:1. Lyanna got pregnant with Rhaegar2. Rhaegar ordered KGs to protect her and future child3. Rhaegar dies4. Sack of KL5. Jon is born at the time6. News come to KGs7. Battle of ToJSo, there is possibility that Jon was born while Aerys and Aegon were alive, and they protected the prince, because they believed Aerys and Aegon are safe with other members of KG, but with the news of deaths of Aerys and Aegon, Jon becomes their King, and he has priority over Viserys. I don't know what is so difficult to understand here...We dont have enough evidence thats whats so difficult.I guess we will have to agre to disagree, my belief is that JOn was born King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenerationx Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 One can argue during that same timeline Mel said all she sees is Snow when asked for AAR so Jon is obvious aswell based on that.I can agree both Dany and Jon are obvious, but I dont know why people deny Jon is obvious aswell.Actually, many people do say Jon is "obvious." Why his "obviousness" is different from Dany's is because you first have to glean that he's a Targaryen, which is something you come to after having put many clues together in the text. Everything about Dany is explicit. That's the biggest difference between the two.And Aemon makes his prediction about Dany way before Mel sees what she sees in her fires. Giving it away that early is what I have issue with. But at some point, particularly later in the books, GRRM has to lay his clues down as we get to the real answer so that it's not a deux ex machina when the truth is revealed. The "Snow" line from Mel is such a small thing and is missed by plenty of people. Some people, even on these boards, don't catch that it's capitalized until someone else points it out to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Arryn Posted September 12, 2013 Author Share Posted September 12, 2013 Big damn difference between Melisandre making an observation and Aemon OUTRIGHT SAYING it's Dany.Jon had a dream holding a flaming sword aswell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Arryn Posted September 12, 2013 Author Share Posted September 12, 2013 Actually, many people do say Jon is "obvious." Why his "obviousness" is different from Dany's is because you first have to glean that he's a Targaryen, which is something you come to after having put many clues together in the text. Everything about Dany is explicit. That's the biggest difference between the two.And Aemon makes his prediction about Dany way before Mel sees what she sees in her fires. Giving it away that early is what I have issue with. But at some point, particularly later in the books, GRRM has to lay his clues down as we get to the real answer so that it's not a deux ex machina when the truth is revealed. The "Snow" line from Mel is such a small thing and is missed by plenty of people. Some people, even on these boards, don't catch that it's capitalized until someone else points it out to them.Actually they are on similar timelines since feast and dance are supposed to be one book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yolkboy Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 I can agree both Dany and Jon are obvious, but I dont know why people deny Jon is obvious aswell.You have to remember, most readers don't even know Jon is a Targ (to fit what's written about the bloodline) until they logon to the interwebz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 We dont have enough evidence thats whats so difficult.I guess we will have to agre to disagree, my belief is that JOn was born King.Jon was perhaps born King, we don't know it for certain... But that doesn't mean he isn't PTWP...Actually, many people do say Jon is "obvious." Why his "obviousness" is different from Dany's is because you first have to glean that he's a Targaryen, which is something you come to after having put many clues together in the text. Everything about Dany is explicit. That's the biggest difference between the two.Jon's and Dany's obviousness are not in the same league. Dany's obviousness is hardly to miss, while Jon's can be easily overlooked. Jon being PTWP is obvious because of the forum, not because of the sole reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Arryn Posted September 12, 2013 Author Share Posted September 12, 2013 Jon was perhaps born King, we don't know it for certain... But that doesn't mean he isn't PTWP...Jon's and Dany's obviousness are not in the same league. Dany's obviousness is hardly to miss, while Jon's can be easily overlooked. Jon being PTWP is obvious because of the forum, not because of the sole reading.:P neither does it mean he is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 :P neither does it mean he isSame can be said for Dany... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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