What if Renly had lived?

[Wmarshal]

What about the unintended consequences of a younger brother, with no right to the IT, becoming King? I think this would create havoc in terms of inheritance for Lords.

Probably, but it is not something that did not exit, just use right conquest and you can do anything you want.

[Stormland's Fury]

Your argument was "Stannis's fleet will rise against him" or "Renly is not perfect".

The first is false, Stannis's whole army dies at Storm's End or joins Renly in that scenario, the second is a strawman, I never claimed Renly was perfect, I said his plan was.

Try again.

His plan wasn't perfect like I already explained to you on two different occasions once you even agreed and now you don't.

Someone with your sig shouldn't throw the word strawman around.

Rise against whom? I said they go back to Dragonstone.

[Stormland's Fury]

He has a fleet, but no man to man them.

Basically, they are not a danger.

To be fair, the Westermen do have a fleet. GRRM himself said it in an interview.

But they still have the ships even without soldiers, captains and seamen don't go on land. Soldiers don't steer and man ships. At best they return to Dragonstone and Renly can't use them at worst they still can pick up a fight at sea or join someone who isn't Renly because he killed their lord.

[Wmarshal]

I mean the core group who are religious zealots and the ones who are extremely loyal to Stannis and coincidentally those are the navy men. They didn't even pledge to Joffrey when the war began but were among the only ones who joined on Stannis own accord. It's also those who choose execution and tell Joffrey right in his face that he's an abomination. Those remaining ones would go back to Dragonstone to protect Shireen or because of religious reasons. It was mentioned quite a lot that the Dragonstone men are fanatically loyal to Stannis. (the King's Men I mean)

Those men, who man the fleet, are the ones facing Renly huge army, I doubt any large number of them would survive to take that large part of the fleet to make them a worry.

[Sullen]

His plan wasn't perfect like I already explained to you on two different occasions once you even agreed and now you don't.

Someone with your sig shouldn't throw the word strawman around.

Rise against whom? I said they go back to Dragonstone.

I said the man wasn't perfect, I never said his plan wasn't.

I don't think you get the meaning of what a stawman is, or get the context from which my sig arises.

And if they never arise, then they aren't a thorn in Renly's sides and don't really matter now, do they?

You keep contradicting yourself so much it's embarrassing.

[Sullen]

But they still have the ships even without soldiers, captains and seamen don't go on land. Soldiers don't steer and man ships. At best they return to Dragonstone and Renly can't use them at worst they still can pick up a fight at sea or join someone who isn't Renly because he killed their lord.

You really think Stannis's men are going to join with the Lannisters?

This is laughable now.

[Wmarshal]

But they still have the ships even without soldiers, captains and seamen don't go on land. Soldiers don't steer and man ships. At best they return to Dragonstone and Renly can't use them at worst they still can pick up a fight at sea or join someone who isn't Renly because he killed their lord.

The narrow sea men are the crew, as you notice at the BWB the seamen doubled as a landing party and soldiers.

[Bronn Urgandy]

Probably, but it is not something that did not exit, just use right conquest and you can do anything you want.

I think the whole point of Renly is that he is a direct consequence of Bobert. Like, a Targ win and suffering one tyrant for the sake of a peaceful dynasty might've been better (lol Blackfyres/DOD) on the whole.

[Wmarshal]

He has a fleet, but no man to man them.

Basically, they are not a danger.

To be fair, the Westermen do have a fleet. GRRM himself said it in an interview.

They probably has no one to man them, Robb killed most of their reserves, and Renly have annihilated Tywin's men.

[Stormland's Fury]

Those men, who man the fleet, are the ones facing Renly huge army, I doubt any large number of them would survive to take that large part of the fleet to make them a worry.

They wouldn't fight but return to Dragonstone. Thus Renly hasn't access to the royal fleet and just like Stannis killing Renly so would Renly killing Stannis come bite him in the ass. They would take the ships and join one of Renly's enemies in the worst case scenario because he murdered their lord. Or just like Auran waters who took the new royal fleet and waits to join someone, but the Lannisters still had not access to his ships just by the fact he took them away.

[Stormland's Fury]

You really think Stannis's men are going to join with the Lannisters?

This is laughable now.

Did I say that? They probably just retreat to Dragonstone and wait for revenge or something if he's unlucky. They're pretty much rogue at that point.

[Stormland's Fury]

The narrow sea men are the crew, as you notice at the BWB the seamen doubled as a landing party and soldiers.

Yes that might be true I agree, but the actual and captains and such still have control of the boats. They are not fighting too, because why would they? If they die the ships are useless.

[Sullen]

Did I say that? They probably just retreat to Dragonstone and wait for revenge or something if he's unlucky. They're pretty much rogue at that point.

You said "They join with his enemies" and at this point, the only people pretty much left to oppose him are the Lannisters... who they are never, ever going to join.

They can't simply wait for a future Targ landing either, Aegon only lands at the end of ADwD which leaves King Renly plenty of time to deal with the measly forces left on Dragonstone and reclaim the island.

Renly killing Stannis was never going to bite him in the ass the same way Stannis killing Renly did. For one, Renly kills most of his loyal men at Storm's End.

[Wmarshal]

Yes that might be true I agree, but the actual and captains and such still have control of the boats. They are not fighting too, because why would they? If they die the ships are useless.

Imry Florent and Stannis abandon their ships even while serving as MOS.

[Stormland's Fury]

Imry Florent and Stannis abandon their ships even while serving as MOS.

I am not sure I am following. Wasn't Imry commanding Stannis' ship the Fury? And he died while aboard. Not being sarcastic here, I'm just curious.

[Wmarshal]

I am not sure I am following. Wasn't Imry commanding Stannis' ship the Fury? And he died while aboard. Not being sarcastic here, I'm just curious.

I think killed by Tyrion.

[Sullen]

I think killed by Tyrion.

Pretty sure Imry died aboard his ship, when the Wildfire trap is activated.

[Stormland's Fury]

I think killed by Tyrion.

Ah you mean burned by the Wildfire. But Stannis was still on land all the time, he wasn't the captain of his ship, Imry was.

In any case what I was getting at, when Stannis is in the Stormlands to lay siege to Storm's End he lands all his troops. But his fleet is still laying siege to the castle from the sea too. So the ships can't be all unattended, even if it's by the bare minimum. IIRC correctly those are his most loyal men, I don't even he used the pirates and sellsails until BW.

[barmyscouser]

Moat Cailin is not the only way m, he had the largest fleet in Westeros.

Why would Doran be his fake Bannerman? He gave Doran what he wanted.

Again, Renly is Petyr's ideal king.

Not really, kill Robb and Tywin and riverlands and West are done. The iron born can easily fall with a little muscle.

First of all I don't mean to pick on Renly. Getting all 9 lands of Westeros paying taxes to one king is unlikely to happen without dragons.

I conceded that Renly might get past Moat Cailin, but he's still Napoleon invading Russia, and Winter is coming. Robb has homefield advantage and he's way better than Renly at military tactics. Even if Renly somehow wins this campaign, it's gonna eat up a lot of blood and a lot of treasure. The Knights of Summer don't have the resources or the stomach for half a dozen such wars.

[Wmarshal]

First of all I don't mean to pick on Renly. Getting all 9 lands of Westeros paying taxes to one king is unlikely to happen without dragons.

I conceded that Renly might get past Moat Cailin, but he's still Napoleon invading Russia, and Winter is coming. Robb has homefield advantage and he's way better than Renly at military tactics. Even if Renly somehow wins this campaign, it's gonna eat up a lot of blood and a lot of treasure. The Knights of Summer don't have the resources or the stomach for half a dozen such wars.

The Targs did it for 200 years.

Robb isn't in North but the West, as to the strength of the North, Bslon took nearly half of it with about ten thousand men with not slot of casualties. And if the North goes Guerllia, do the longshanks.