Sullen Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Seriously. Seriously. He kills Renly, insuring the animosity of the Tyrells for one. H refuses to deal with Robb while he still calls himself King in the North, whilst Renly was actively dealing in diplomacy with Lady Catelyn at the time. He champions a foreign and destructive religion antagonizing the whole of the most pious lords, and sure to piss off whoever is the High Septon at the time. He is unwilling to deal with corruption in the Realm and has the reputation to be a terrifying dispenser of justice, pretty much making himself the enemy of anyone that is corrupted. (He won't get a surrender from Tywin for sure) Simply saying "He wants to end the war the quickest" when everything points to the contrary is just silly, especially when Renly's plan was all based around ending the War without having to fight much at all. EDIT: I know you like Stannis, he's a rightful guy and believes he is doing the right thing, but saying that he's the one that wants to end the war the quickest and wants to minimizes losses as possible is simply white-washing the character beyond measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Seriously. He kills Renly, insuring the animosity of the Tyrells for one. H refuses to deal with Robb while he still calls himself King in the North, whilst Renly was actively dealing in diplomacy with Lady Catelyn at the time. He champions a foreign and destructive religion antagonizing the whole of the most pious lords, and sure to piss off whoever is the High Septon at the time. He is unwilling to deal with corruption in the Realm and has the reputation to be a terrifying dispenser of justice, pretty much making himself the enemy of anyone that is corrupted. (He won't get a surrender from Tywin for sure) Simply saying "He wants to end the war the quickest" when everything points to the contrary is just silly, especially when Renly's plan was all based around ending the War without having to fight much at all. No words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 No words. Of course you have no words, you know I'm right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Of course you have no words, you know I'm right. No because you are arguing with yourself. For the second time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Let's say Renly can get his host passed Moat Cailin even though the Andals tried for thousands of years and failed. At that point, Renly is Napoleon invading Russia. Doran Martel might have agreed to be Renly's fake bannerman as he did for Robert and Joff. But if Renly wants taxes or levies he'll have to win a guerrilla war in the Red Mountains. The Eyrie is considered to be the toughest castle in Westeros to besiege. So those would be Renly's 3 hardest campaigns. But The Riverlands, Westerlands and Iron Islands would all put up a fight. So what would run out first, Renly's soldiers, Mace's gold or the patience of their bannermen?Moat Cailin is not the only way m, he had the largest fleet in Westeros.Why would Doran be his fake Bannerman? He gave Doran what he wanted.Again, Renly is Petyr's ideal king.Not really, kill Robb and Tywin and riverlands and West are done. The iron born can easily fall with a little muscle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 No because you are arguing with yourself. For the second time. I have yet to see you bring forth a single argument that shows that Stannis wishes to end the war faster than Renly, or even Tywin, does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Moat Cailin is not the only way m, he had the largest fleet in Westeros. Although they had to fight the Ironborn as well and Stannis loyalist fleet who retreated to Dragonstone. That fleey will be split up between two different seas plus attempting to defeat the northern fleet and in worst case scenario a Lannister fleet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Moat Cailin is not the only way m, he had the largest fleet in Westeros.Why would Doran be his fake Bannerman? He gave Doran what he wanted.Again, Renly is Petyr's ideal king.Not really, kill Robb and Tywin and riverlands and West are done. The iron born can easily fall with a little muscle. Renly doesn't need to kill Robb, Robb either bends the knee when he realises Renly will only move against Tywin once he pledges his fealty to him, or when the Ironborn attack the North. Robb and Renly were natural allies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I have yet to see you bring forth a single argument that shows that Stannis wishes to end the war faster than Renly, or even Tywin, does. I did already twice. But you come back with the same argument everytime that didn't work in the first place. If you want to live in Candyland, kudos to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Although they had to fight the Ironborn as well and Stannis loyalist fleet who retreated to Dragonstone. That fleey will be split up between two different seas plus attempting to defeat the northern fleet and in worst case scenario a Lannister fleet. Stannis's whole army dies at Storm's End, and the Northmen don't have a fleet yet (and Robb bends the knee nonetheless)... try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erkan12 Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Renly would rule the south and Robb would rule the north. But that makes the story less interesting, thats why GRRM murdered them with sorceries ways (shadow baby and love potion) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Stannis's whole army dies at Storm's End, and the Northmen don't have a fleet yet (and Robb bends the knee nonetheless)... try again. Stannis' fleet doesn't fight on land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Although they had to fight the Ironborn as well and Stannis loyalist fleet who retreated to Dragonstone. That fleey will be split up between two different seas plus attempting to defeat the northern fleet and in worst case scenario a Lannister fleet.Stannis's men would bow to Renly, yes they are awesome, but they lost to Renly fair and square. As to Ironborn, they were stuck in the North itself at the time. There is no Northern or Western fleets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Renly would rule the south and Robb would rule the north. But that makes the story less interesting, thats why GRRM murdered them with sorceries ways (shadow baby and love potion) actually that's exactly what would happen if Renly won. I think GRRM needed Stannis more than he anticipated, and had to do something to write himself out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Renly would rule the south and Robb would rule the north. But that makes the story less interesting, thats why GRRM murdered them with sorceries ways (shadow baby and love potion) Robb would be a vassal king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I did already twice. But you come back with the same argument everytime that didn't work in the first place. If you want to live in Candyland, kudos to you. Your argument was "Stannis's fleet will rise against him" or "Renly is not perfect". The first is false, Stannis's whole army dies at Storm's End or joins Renly in that scenario, the second is a strawman, I never claimed Renly was perfect, I said his plan was. Try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 What about the unintended consequences of a younger brother, with no right to the IT, becoming King? I think this would create havoc in terms of inheritance for Lords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Stannis's men would bow to Renly, yes they are awesome, but they lost to Renly fair and square. As to Ironborn, they were stuck in the North itself at the time. There is no Northern or Western fleets. I mean the core group who are religious zealots and the ones who are extremely loyal to Stannis and coincidentally those are the navy men. They didn't even pledge to Joffrey when the war began but were among the only ones who joined on Stannis own accord. It's also those who choose execution and tell Joffrey right in his face that he's an abomination. Those remaining ones would go back to Dragonstone to protect Shireen or because of religious reasons. It was mentioned quite a lot that the Dragonstone men are fanatically loyal to Stannis. (the King's Men I mean) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronn Urgandy Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Could've gone either way. He wraps everything up as absurdly perfectly as some believe, or he ends up fighting an extended engagement against Tywin, Robb Stark either dead or sitting on his hands North of the neck and the Ironborn reaving and raping his coastline. Dragonstone still needs to fall on top of that. He'd have things wrapped up almost as well as the Lannister/Tyell alliance do now, which is to say first misstep (a Targ landing even) and it could all go to shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Stannis' fleet doesn't fight on land. He has a fleet, but no man to man them. Basically, they are not a danger. Stannis's men would bow to Renly, yes they are awesome, but they lost to Renly fair and square. As to Ironborn, they were stuck in the North itself at the time. There is no Northern or Western fleets. To be fair, the Westermen do have a fleet. GRRM himself said it in an interview. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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