What if Renly had lived?

[Stormland's Fury]

First of all I don't mean to pick on Renly. Getting all 9 lands of Westeros paying taxes to one king is unlikely to happen without dragons.

I conceded that Renly might get past Moat Cailin, but he's still Napoleon invading Russia, and Winter is coming. Robb has homefield advantage and he's way better than Renly at military tactics. Even if Renly somehow wins this campaign, it's gonna eat up a lot of blood and a lot of treasure. The Knights of Summer don't have the resources or the stomach for half a dozen such wars.

I agree with this. Also Robert had several regions backing him and many stay neutral, even the Greyjoys. Renly has basically one big Reach army, which is impressive but as soon more factions appear he only has the Reach and Storm armies. Even they can't fend off several other regions by themselves.

[Sullen]

First of all I don't mean to pick on Renly. Getting all 9 lands of Westeros paying taxes to one king is unlikely to happen without dragons.

I conceded that Renly might get past Moat Cailin, but he's still Napoleon invading Russia, and Winter is coming. Robb has homefield advantage and he's way better than Renly at military tactics. Even if Renly somehow wins this campaign, it's gonna eat up a lot of blood and a lot of treasure. The Knights of Summer don't have the resources or the stomach for half a dozen such wars.

Renly doesn't need to go North, Robb would most probably bend his knee before they even fought a single battle.

Robb needs a way to disengage himself from Tywin and move back North once the Ironborn invade, the best way to do that is by bending the knee to Renly and get him to move against Tywin.

[paladin24]

I didn't say people weren't greedy and ignore laws.

I just said Renly's claim to the throne was illegal and I doubt people would tolerate him for long on the Iron Throne.

But using black magic is legit, right?

[Sullen]

But using black magic is legit, right?

So is burning the people you're supposed to rule over's Gods, I guess.

[Mad Monkey]

I think Renly could have ended it faster but Stannis was the one who actually wanted it to end the fastest.

We don't really know that. Everyone wants to end the war as quickly as is practical. Even Renly would probably rather be on the Iron Throne but he moved slowly because he wanted to gather his strength to make sure that he could defeat the Lannisters. He already had the strength to take on Joffrey at KL but Tywin had his Westerlands armies.

I just said Renly's claim to the throne was illegal and I doubt people would tolerate him for long on the Iron Throne.

There's no way to know about this. Renly was well-liked as far as we know, and while his claim to the throne was illegal so was Robert's, and as far as some people know so is Stannis's. Legal and illegal don't mean that much, it's more about what people want. You could say that Stannis's embrace of the red faith would scare people too, but no one uses that as a reason why he should be denied the throne that is his by rights.

[Fat Mac]

But using black magic is legit, right?

It worked, so it seems to be pretty legit.

[paladin24]

It worked, so it seems to be pretty legit.

If Stannis is as amazing as his fans say he is he would surely have been able to triumph solely by virtue of his own merits instead on having to lean on a crazy magic lady to do his dirty work for him, no?

[Sullen]

If Stannis is as amazing as his fans say he is he would surely have been able to triumph solely by virtue of his own merits instead on having to lean on a crazy magic lady to do his dirty work for him, no?

Stannis defeated Victarion's Iron Fleet on his own during the Greyjoy Rebellion, that alone is more impressive than anything any other character has yet to accomplish in the whole series if you ask me.

[paladin24]

Stannis defeated Victarion's Iron Fleet on his own during the Greyjoy Rebellion, that alone is more impressive than anything any other character has yet to accomplish in the whole series if you ask me.

Considering how stupid the Greyjoys generally are, I am unsure.

[Sullen]

Considering how stupid the Greyjoys generally are, I am unsure.

Victarion is dumb, but nothing suggests he is inept as a naval commander... to the contrary, he is rather feared and respected by anyone who speaks of him as military leader.

[paladin24]

Victarion is dumb, but nothing suggests he is inept as a naval commander... to the contrary, he is rather feared and respected by anyone who speaks of him as military leader.

Number of vagina monsters required for victory = zero.

Good, then, now that we've established he can win sans plot devices...

[barmyscouser]

Moat Cailin is not the only way m, he had the largest fleet in Westeros.

Why would Doran be his fake Bannerman? He gave Doran what he wanted.

Again, Renly is Petyr's ideal king.

Not really, kill Robb and Tywin and riverlands and West are done. The iron born can easily fall with a little muscle.

Jon Arryn went to Dorn and negotiated a deal where Dorn was loyal to Robert on paper as long as Robert didn't ask for anything. Tyrion negotiated roughly the same deal for Joff. I think Renly is smart enough to keep the status quo. Bu Doran is not going to send 50k (lol) spears to kill Renly's foes.

btw The Dorn deal should have been Cat's fallback position with Renly. But I don't think Cat and Robb discussed a fallback position.

[Denam_Pavel]

Moat Cailin is not the only way m, he had the largest fleet in Westeros.

The Reach's fleet did not bestir itself to take Dragonstone in spite of orders until after Balon was dead and Stannis had left for the Wall, they might like Renly more, I don't think it'll present the massive shift in daring this suggests.

[Wmarshal]

Jon Arryn went to Dorn and negotiated a deal where Dorn was loyal to Robert on paper as long as Robert didn't ask for anything. Tyrion negotiated roughly the same deal for Joff. I think Renly is smart enough to keep the status quo. Bu Doran is not going to send 50k (lol) spears to kill Renly's foes.

btw The Dorn deal should have been Cat's fallback position with Renly. But I don't think Cat and Robb discussed a fallback position.

Jon Arryn did not offer Tywin 's head.

[Wmarshal]

The Reach's fleet did not bestir itself to take Dragonstone in spite of orders until after Balon was dead and Stannis had left for the Wall, they might like Renly more, I don't think it'll present the massive shift in daring this suggests.

The Reach fleet was on it's way to Dragonstone at the time of Stannis flight.

[Stormland's Fury]

We don't really know that. Everyone wants to end the war as quickly as is practical. Even Renly would probably rather be on the Iron Throne but he moved slowly because he wanted to gather his strength to make sure that he could defeat the Lannisters. He already had the strength to take on Joffrey at KL but Tywin had his Westerlands armies.

Stannis actually said he needed to take KL, get the throne and seize Cersei and her children. We have every reason to believe that he wanted to deal with the Lannisters in a way, be it military or politically and give the Starks and Tullys reason to bend the knee. Which he would have achieved by giving Robb Sansa (if applicable) and executing Joffrey for Ned's murder (which he also explicitly planned to do). The Tyrells wouldn't really do that much in that scenario and the Ironborn need to be to dealt with.

If it would have worked is an other question, but the fact that he did rush to KL and his quote that the "pretenders" will pay for letting his kingdom bleed, actually point to the fact that he wanted to bring law back as soon as possible.

Renly actually could do the same thing with his army, but I think was advised to let the Lannsiters bleed out in the Riverlands since they fought against two regions simultaneously.

[Sullen]

The Tyrells wouldn't really do that much in that scenario and the Ironborn need to be to dealt with.

The Tyrells had just committed high treason and didn't bend the knee to Stannis after he killed Renly, Stannis was not going to forgive them and they were not going to want him as their king.

So no, they'd probably still team up with the Lannisters, only to keep Stannis away from the Throne.

[Stormland's Fury]

The Tyrells had just committed high treason and didn't bend the knee to Stannis after he killed Renly, Stannis was not going to forgive them and they were not going to want him as their king.

So no, they'd probably still team up with the Lannisters, only to keep Stannis away from the Throne.

But in that scenario Stannis would have Cersei and Sansa, while Jaimie would still be hostage in the Riverlands.

The Lannisters also lost Tyrion and KL, it's not sure what Tywin would do, but he probably would be careful after he lost influence in the capital, one son (presumably) is dead and his daughter and other son are hostages.

The Tyrells might have a personal grudge against Stannis but they don't gonna join the weakened Lannisters who have no royal blood to offer, to fight the rest of the kingdom.

[Sullen]

But in that scenario Stannis would have Cersei and Sansa, while Jaimie would still be hostage in the Riverlands.

The Lannisters also lost Tyrion and KL, it's not sure what Tywin would do, but he probably would be careful after he lost influence in the capital, one son (presumably) is dead and his daughter and other son are hostages.

Pretty sure Stannis would execute Cersei, and not keep her hostage.

Justice demands it, after all.

Tywin doesn't want Stannis, Mace sure as hell doesn't want Stannis, Robb wants to stay independent, so does Balon, Doran is still plotting for a Targ intervention, and Lysa sure as hell ain't getting involved either (Littlefinger not liking Stannis after all).

No one wants Stannis as their King except the Stormlanders and the lords of the Narrow Sea, and there's no way Stannis can defeat all the people opposing him (especially considering no one will help him do so). If he's lucky, they'll all declare themselves independent and let him be. If he's unlucky, someone will try to kill him and crown himself the new King of the Seven Kingdoms instead.

[Stormland's Fury]

Pretty sure Stannis would execute Cersei, and not keep her hostage.

Justice demands it, after all.

Tywin doesn't want Stannis, Mace sure as hell doesn't want Stannis, Robb wants to stay independent, so does Balon, Doran is still plotting for a Targ intervention, and Lysa sure as hell ain't getting involved either (Littlefinger not liking Stannis after all).

No one wants Stannis as their King except the Stormlanders and the lords of the Narrow Sea, and there's no way Stannis can defeat all the people opposing him (especially considering no one will help him do so). If he's lucky, they'll all declare themselves independent and let him be. If he's unlucky, someone will try to kill him and crown himself the new King of the Seven Kingdoms instead.

He might execute Cersei right on the spot granted. But he's also pragmatic.

Well, in that case it's nothing with wanting him, he already has his own men from the Stormlands and he's sitting the Iron Throne with good reasons to get both Robb and the Tully's on his side. The Lannisters are in a weak position (even the weakest), Lysa joins whoever ends the war, and Dorne will be happy that Stannis took care of both the Tyrells and Lannisters.

Mace might have to answer to him though. In the worst case Stannis replaces him with Willas.

This is just speculation, but that's how Stannis would see the situation, his quotes, actions and possible outcome let me conclude that he indeed wanted to bring a fast end to the war.

Yes, anything might happen just as if Renly was king. But I was discussing why he might be the one who wants a quick end to the war.