Summers1913 Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Still new to the forum and all the theories but this is something I don't quite understand. When I look at all the different theories about what happened at the Tower of Joy I don't quite understand why the three kingsguard and the seven had to fight. The war was over if I read the sequence of events correctly, and all we know that Lyanna was there. Why would Dayne and the others fight Ned? I get that they are proud and all but did they think Ned would harm Lyanna or her baby (if there was a baby)? The exchange they had in Ned's dream doesn't really make sense to me either. It seemed both sides knew they were going to fight no matter what. But again Ned would never allow harm to come to Lyanna. So what else are the kingsguard protecting? Again sorry if I completely missed something here. And thanks for any answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Some of us believe they were there to protect the King: Jon. We believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna married following Targaryen practice of polygamy, and thus Jon would be legitimate heir of the Throne and needed KG near him. For it truly doesn't make sense that KG protects dead prince's mistress and their bastard, when their supposed King - Viserys is in danger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Needs More Salt Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Alternatively, the Tower of Joy could be the name Rhaegar gave his... ... you know ... :smileysex: :smug: :smug: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stenjen Bark Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Some of us believe they were there to protect the King: Jon. We believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna married following Targaryen practice of polygamy, and thus Jon would be legitimate heir of the Throne and needed KG near him. For it truly doesn't make sense that KG protects dead prince's mistress and their bastard, when their supposed King - Viserys is in danger. I think they get this, but what they don't understand is why Ned and his men have to then fight the KG... Which is actually a pretty good point I've never thought of before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Needs More Salt Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 I think they get this, but what they don't understand is why Ned and his men have to then fight the KG... Which is actually a pretty good point I've never thought of before If that's the true King, then the Kingsguard sure as hell isn't going to let the usurpers just waltz on in there. They were protecting not only Rhaegar's lover and the baby, but anonymity was crucial as well. I'm postulating, not that I necessarily agree with the above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summers1913 Posted April 25, 2014 Author Share Posted April 25, 2014 Some of us believe they were there to protect the King: Jon. We believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna married following Targaryen practice of polygamy, and thus Jon would be legitimate heir of the Throne and needed KG near him. For it truly doesn't make sense that KG protects dead prince's mistress and their bastard, when their supposed King - Viserys is in danger. I think they get this, but what they don't understand is why Ned and his men have to then fight the KG... Which is actually a pretty good point I've never thought of before Yes this is why I am confused. I believe in the theory that there is a child in there. But if it was Jon or even some other baby why would the KG fear Ned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summers1913 Posted April 25, 2014 Author Share Posted April 25, 2014 If that's the true King, then the Kingsguard sure as hell isn't going to let the usurpers just waltz on in there. They were protecting not only Rhaegar's lover and the baby, but anonymity was crucial as well. I'm postulating, not that I necessarily agree with the above. If this was the case wouldn't there have been some other conversation happening there? It seemed to me when Ned got there both sides knew they were going to fight. Which again why would Ned not plead for Lyanna or something? Instead he is sad they have to fight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roxWolfox Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Still new to the forum and all the theories but this is something I don't quite understand. When I look at all the different theories about what happened at the Tower of Joy I don't quite understand why the three kingsguard and the seven had to fight. The war was over if I read the sequence of events correctly, and all we know that Lyanna was there. Why would Dayne and the others fight Ned? I get that they are proud and all but did they think Ned would harm Lyanna or her baby (if there was a baby)? The exchange they had in Ned's dream doesn't really make sense to me either. It seemed both sides knew they were going to fight no matter what. But again Ned would never allow harm to come to Lyanna. So what else are the kingsguard protecting? Again sorry if I completely missed something here. And thanks for any answers. The exchange made it clear that Ned believed they (as the Kingsguard) should have been elsewhere - at Storms End, with the Queen and Viserys at Dragonstone, Kings Landing protecting the king - anywhere but a little broken down tower (tower of joy). But, they swore a vow. Whether that vow was to protect Lyanna and her child for prophetic reasons or for other reasons is up to the interpretation of the reader. It all depends on the vow they swore, and who they made that vow to. It is definitely one of the most haunting scenes in the books, made more-so by Ned finding his sister in a bed of blood (which has been referenced to in story as a 'birthing bed'). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summers1913 Posted April 25, 2014 Author Share Posted April 25, 2014 The exchange made it clear that Ned believed they (as the Kingsguard) should have been elsewhere - at Storms End, with the Queen and Viserys at Dragonstone, Kingslanding protecting the king - anywhere but a little broken down tower (tower of joy). But, they swore a vow. Whether that vow was to protect Lyanna and her child for prophetic reasons or for other reasons is up to the interpretation of the reader. It all depends on the vow they swore, and who they made that vow to. It is definitely one of the most haunting scenes in the books, made more-so by Ned finding his sister in a bed of blood (which has been referenced to in story as a 'birthing bed'). So is it possible Ned didn't know his sister was in there prior to the fight? And he was fighting for something else? Why wouldn't he have at least asked for his sister and nobody had to die? It seems like that would be the Ned thing to do unless they were there for a reason other than Lyanna. I am probably looking into this too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bastard of Walton Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Its a complete "Crazy Theory" but I think Rhaegar was in the middle of a coup on the Throne. The Kingsguard Lord Commander & Dayne & Whent, recognised Rhaegar as King, its the only reason I can see why they remained with Lyanna at the Tower. Because there Kings orders where to protect his Heir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Needs More Salt Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 If this was the case wouldn't there have been some other conversation happening there? It seemed to me when Ned got there both sides knew they were going to fight. Which again why would Ned not plead for Lyanna or something? Instead he is sad they have to fight? It's understandable that Ned wanted his sister back, as he assumes she was abducted, raped, and god knows what, and the Kingsguard knew that much -- the willingness of Lyanna and whether she loved Rhaegar notwithstanding. As far as Ned knew, she was in trouble and he had to get her out of it. For the Kingsguard, they were protecting the King and the King's mother, and any hint as to what was actually going on in that tower would potentially threaten the newborn King himself even though his uncle was the one knocking at hte door. The Kingsguard are trained to keep their mouths shut, and that scenario epitomizes why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summers1913 Posted April 25, 2014 Author Share Posted April 25, 2014 It's understandable that Ned wanted his sister back, as he assumes she was abducted, raped, and god knows what, and the Kingsguard knew that much -- the willingness of Lyanna and whether she loved Rhaegar notwithstanding. As far as Ned knew, she was in trouble and he had to get her out of it. For the Kingsguard, they were protecting the King and the King's mother, and any hint as to what was actually going on in that tower would potentially threaten the newborn King himself even though his uncle was the one knocking at hte door. The Kingsguard are trained to keep their mouths shut, and that scenario epitomizes why. I think this is probably the best explanation I could ask for. I still think at least Ned would plead for his sister since Rhaegar was already dead. But this is totally possible still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteOwl18 Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Yes this is why I am confused. I believe in the theory that there is a child in there. But if it was Jon or even some other baby why would the KG fear Ned? Because Ned was Robert's best friend and had just fought a war to overthrow the Targaryens. The other Targaryen kids were brutally murdered. We know that Ned had nothing to do with that and was actually outraged by it, but do they? Probably not. They are not going to let him have access to another Targaryen baby who was also their king. Now that I think of it, this is one of those situations where Ned's honorable reputation might have worked against him. The KG knew that he was loyal to Robert and that loyalty would compel him to give him one of the last Targs alive. They couldn't let that happen. Lyanna herself wasn't sure of Ned's reaction, and she's his sister! Fear left her eyes only when Ned made his promise. Clearly, she was afraid that he might be compeled to give her son to Robert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summers1913 Posted April 25, 2014 Author Share Posted April 25, 2014 Because Ned was Robert's best friend and had just fought a war to overthrow the Targaryens. The other Targaryen kids were brutally murdered. We know that Ned had nothing to do with that and was actually outraged by it, but do they? Probably not. They are not going to let him have access to another Targaryen baby who was also their king. Now that I think of it, this is one of those situations where Ned's honorable reputation might have worked against him. The KG knew that he was loyal to Robert and that loyalty would compel him to give him one of the last Targs alive. They couldn't let that happen. Lyanna herself wasn't sure of Ned's reaction, and she's his sister! Fear left her eyes only when Ned made his promise. Clearly, she was afraid that he might be compeled to give her son to Robert. Great analysis. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 I think they get this, but what they don't understand is why Ned and his men have to then fight the KG... Because Ned and his men were rebels which equals with traitors. The 3KG couldn't let them pass to their king without being sure about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 I think they get this, but what they don't understand is why Ned and his men have to then fight the KG... Which is actually a pretty good point I've never thought of before Thing is that Ned was a wild card. They obviously didn't know what to expect from him. For all they know, he could have done the same to Lyanna and the baby as was done to Elia and her children. And even if he didn't have those intentions. as we saw he didn't, Jon would be the King of Westeros, and by oaths they are obliged to protect him and aid him in every possible way. They knew nothing of Ned's intentions thus the fighting. Now that I think of it, this is one of those situations where Ned's honorable reputation might have worked against him. The KG knew that he was loyal to Robert and that loyalty would compel him to give him one of the last Targs alive. They couldn't let that happen. Back then, Ned had no honorable reputation. For anyone, he was just Robert's supporter, nothing more. Ned's reputation was built over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Needs More Salt Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 I think this is probably the best explanation I could ask for. I still think at least Ned would plead for his sister since Rhaegar was already dead. But this is totally possible still. So you're saying you disagree with my earlier analysis that Rhaegar named the Tower of Joy for his weiner? I'm a little disappointed, to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summers1913 Posted April 25, 2014 Author Share Posted April 25, 2014 So you're saying you disagree with my earlier analysis that Rhaegar named the Tower of Joy for his weiner? I'm a little disappointed, to be honest. No I was just assuming everybody already agreed with that theory. R+L = Tower of Joy :eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roxWolfox Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 So is it possible Ned didn't know his sister was in there prior to the fight? And he was fighting for something else? Why wouldn't he have at least asked for his sister and nobody had to die? It seems like that would be the Ned thing to do unless they were there for a reason other than Lyanna. I am probably looking into this too much. Before I forget ... welcome to the boards! :cheers: Without looking at the book, if my memory serves correctly, Ned left Robert at King's Landing in a furious state over the brutal slaying of (and Robert's complete disregard of) Rhaegar's wife and children. I don't know how long it took for Ned to find Lyanna (or who told him where she was), but he was searching for her ... I believe someone told him when he was at Storms End, but that's just what I read into it. If word had traveled to the three kingsguard of the way Rhaegar's children had died (through ravens or what-have-you), they would be all that more inclined to make sure another of Rhaegar's children was protected/hidden from Robert. Ned was a general sworn to Robert, hence he was potentially a great danger to the child they were protecting. In the end it is a mystery, and one that readers have been debating/talking about for decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Needs More Salt Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 I'll win you all over to my side, I will. Stone by stone and inch by inch, you'll all slowly open yourselves up to my perverse theories! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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