The future of Craster's wives

[Yojimbo]

I very much doubt it.

The show used the opportunity to feature a new character, one we already saw helping Gilly escape, and chances are we will see her again. Since the Mother Mole thread is rather important in the books, I think it is quite likely we will see these women head to Hardhome, either die there or be captured there by slavers, end up in Braavos, and the rest of those events we don't know yet in the books.

We also saw in Season 1, Bowen Marsh, a character who we know for a fact has been far more important in the books, than Mother Mole and he got cut in season 1. Why do you think they are going to keep an even more minior character around? Why can't this just be the end of Craster's Wives story?

[Ghost's Shadow]

Jon would imo not risk a Hardhome mission, one that took all his ships away in the book that is, to re-rescue a few women who were offered to be let to the other side of the Wall in the first place.

In the books it was a lot of people he tried to save, but in the show the NW's numbers are already so down it's truly impossible to send out more, just like Bowen Marsh might not lose a hundred himself, now. If CB is the biggest castle and there's barely 100 there, the other two won't even have that.

[Hippocras]

We also saw in Season 1, Bowen Marsh, a character who we know for a fact has been far more important in the books, than Mother Mole and he got cut in season 1. Why do you think they are going to keep an even more minior character around? Why can't this just be the end of Craster's Wives story?

First of all, Bowen Marsh has not been cut. His role comes later, even in the books. In the books he only becomes Jon's antagonist after he becomes Lord Commander. So there is no basis for the claim he has been cut. In fact he is up there at the high table with maester Aemon, Thorne and Slynt in the NW scenes.

Second, WoW is not out yet, but I disagree that the Hardhome events are some kind of irrelevant tangent. I suspect they are quite important in the future story. In the books, Mother Mole is never seen directly so far, but there is no reason the show could not do it differently. The show could actually show her leading hundreds of wildlings there, then them being attacked by white walkers, then picked up by slavers etc.

It of course depends what happens at Hardhome and with the wildling from there who end up in Braavos or shipwrecked on Skagos in the next book. Some people think the ones who were captured by slavers then freed in Braavos will connect with Daenerys, breaker of chains. At the very least they might tie in to Arya's story.

We just don't know where that storyline is going yet. But I, personally am of the opinion GRRM did not put it in the books for no reason. I think it will turn out to be important. And if so, the show has started to set it up by giving us a character who might become mother mole.

[Colonel Green]

Hardhome is exactly the sort of tangent that will get cut from the show. There aren't even any POV characters present for it.

[Hippocras]

Hardhome is exactly the sort of tangent that will get cut from the show. There aren't even any POV characters present for it.

Not yet.

[Colonel Green]

Not yet.

Nor are like to be. The Others are going to kill a bunch of people; none of the men Jon sent are coming back. What more is there?

[Hippocras]

Nor are like to be. The Others are going to kill a bunch of people; none of the men Jon sent are coming back. What more is there?

Jon was determined to lead a ranging there. He may go now as Ghost. Or Bran may show his new powers there. With a character like Bran, physical presence is not actually required. There are other possibilities I will describe below.

I have the sense that Hardhome has some secrets that will help those fighting the Others (Jon, Bran, Stannis, friends) understand who and what the Others are and where they come from, what they are fighting for etc. Hardhome is therefore a major clue to the war for the Dawn. In other words, more important than you are giving credit for. It is a common tendency for fans to not acknowledge the importance of events that have not yet been developed in the books, and because the importance of Hardhome will only become clearer in books that have not been published yet it is hard to say exactly where that thread is going. That should not be confused with irrelevance.

What we do know about Hardhome is that it will be the source of a major wight army. That, on its own, would make for a very cool TV image sequence.

Some of the wildlings ended up in Braavos, we already know. Some also ended up shipwrecked on Skagos. There is therefore the possibility some of them will cross paths with Davos, Rickon and Osha, while others cross paths with Arya. These wildlings now in Essos could very well become a thread helping with the task of reconnecting the Essos and Westeros storylines. The ones in Skagos could become a force influencing Rickon's fate.

Another possibility of course is that ships full of wildlings became ships full of wights en-route to Essos, bringing the zombie plague across the narrow sea.

In short I see a number of potential directions that Hardhome might take the story, and all of them are interesting and relevant. But only GRRM has the final answer. If these events are important, the show has started to set them up, I believe, via Craster's head wife.

[Envie]

I was really enjoying your various theories as to the importance of the Hardhome / Other / Braavos in the future of the story until I got to this line:

Another possibility of course is that ships full of wildlings became ships full of wights en-route to Essos, bringing the zombie plague across the narrow sea.

Wait, what?

I think you are mixing up your shows / zombie tales here just a tad. ;) The 'wights' are not caused by a "zombie plague" of any sort. They are dead risen by the Others themselves and whatever magic they use. Men who die south of the wall, or anywhere else, do not come back as zombies / wights (unless you count Beric or LSH and that's a different sort of "resurrection" magic at play). It's only when in the presence of the magic accompanying the White Walkers north of the wall that dead corpses rise. A ship full of wights would kill anything living but once they got to Essos the chain is broken - there are no White Walkers there.

But back to your original point - I think there's validity in keeping the Hardhome story arc in the back of our mind and not dismissing it. Whether or not it becomes important to the show is another matter entirely. Both are dependent on whether or not GRRM has the Hardhome story become part of the end-game story or it's just another one of those side stories to throw readers off that doesn't go anywhere. We have no way of knowing. :(

[Yojimbo]

First of all, Bowen Marsh has not been cut. His role comes later, even in the books. In the books he only becomes Jon's antagonist after he becomes Lord Commander. So there is no basis for the claim he has been cut. In fact he is up there at the high table with maester Aemon, Thorne and Slynt in the NW scenes.

First of all he has been cut, the actor who played Bowen Marsh is now playing Othell Yarwyck. Source . Second, if you don't remember, it was Bowen Marsh who was the acting Lord Commander in the books, in the show it is Alliser Thorne. It was Bowen Marsh in the books who sends most of the remaining Brothers at Castle Black to East Watch because Mance tricked him into thinking they are going to attack there, not Castle Black. Leaving the Castle mostly defenseless so the 200 strong raiding party in the books could take the gate unopposed. But Jon manages to defeat the raiding party forcing Mance to use his main force to attack. The events leading up to the Battle of Black Water are very different from the show to the books. Now tell me again please, why you think the show won't change/get rid of a minior character?

Second, WoW is not out yet, but I disagree that the Hardhome events are some kind of irrelevant tangent. I suspect they are quite important in the future story. In the books, Mother Mole is never seen directly so far, but there is no reason the show could not do it differently. The show could actually show her leading hundreds of wildlings there, then them being attacked by white walkers, then picked up by slavers etc.

Well I still think Coldhands has his part to play in the books, but we have seen no sight or sound of him yet. But from the looks of it he has been cut, other wise I don't get why he was not introduced last season.

It of course depends what happens at Hardhome and with the wildling from there who end up in Braavos or shipwrecked on Skagos in the next book. Some people think the ones who were captured by slavers then freed in Braavos will connect with Daenerys, breaker of chains. At the very least they might tie in to Arya's story.

We just don't know where that storyline is going yet. But I, personally am of the opinion GRRM did not put it in the books for no reason. I think it will turn out to be important. And if so, the show has started to set it up by giving us a character who might become mother mole.

I agree with that we don't know where the story in the books is going yet, and may be the events in Hardhome still has a role to play. But I don't see why the show would care if does or not. It been made pretty clear to me the show is going it own way about events. They wouldn't be the first studio ever in the history of film, to break away from source material, they won't be the last.

[Hippocras]

I was really enjoying your various theories as to the importance of the Hardhome / Other / Braavos in the future of the story until I got to this line:

Wait, what?

I think you are mixing up your shows / zombie tales here just a tad. ;) The 'wights' are not caused by a "zombie plague" of any sort. They are dead risen by the Others themselves and whatever magic they use. Men who die south of the wall, or anywhere else, do not come back as zombies / wights (unless you count Beric or LSH and that's a different sort of "resurrection" magic at play). It's only when in the presence of the magic accompanying the White Walkers north of the wall that dead corpses rise. A ship full of wights would kill anything living but once they got to Essos the chain is broken - there are no White Walkers there.

But back to your original point - I think there's validity in keeping the Hardhome story arc in the back of our mind and not dismissing it. Whether or not it becomes important to the show is another matter entirely. Both are dependent on whether or not GRRM has the Hardhome story become part of the end-game story or it's just another one of those side stories to throw readers off that doesn't go anywhere. We have no way of knowing. :(

No, don't watch any zombie shows. :D

You must admit wights are pretty much zombies with a different name though. They kill people. The people they kill start walking around doing their own killing....pretty much same thing as a zombie plague.