Could a United 7 Kingdoms of Westeros conquer the Free Cities?

[Free Northman Reborn]

Trade is important to westeros too remeber and the more modern economy of essos is far more durable than westeos more feudal based one

also why would their sea based trade collapse theyd have naval superiority?

also there 0 evidence their food production is far lower ..and if it was its not massively so plus they can import

to destroy that aqueduct must be harder than it sounds otherwise bravos wouldnt have bullied its powerful neighbour pentos into having no slaves. Also it clearly states that the water in the lagoon they are in can be boiled to make drinkable.

All in all theres still the problems with the free cities naval superiority , the problems landing a force in the face of so much available manpower , the dothraki , the faceless men, the iron bank , the reactions from slavers bay, yi ti , quarth etc

Hang on now, no one is saying Westeros could conquer the entire Essos. All of the additional parties you mention, like the Dothraki, Quartheen, Slavers Bay etc. might as well be enemies of the Free Cities as allies of them. They have no bearing on giving one side or the other a better chance.

As for the Faceless Men. Now you are bringing magic into it. Then we might as well bring in a greenseer who can warg a school of kraken to pull down the entire Braavosi fleet.

Regarding resources, here is where I think you miss the boat completely.

A citystate like Venice could never hope to match an entire nation like France in the medieval period, in terms of resources. And that is what the Free Cities are based on, essentially. Italian city states from the Middle Ages.

Westeros combined has more of everything. More men. More gold. More iron. More cattle. More sheep. More leather.

The Free Cities punch above their demographic size because of trade. Disrupt that, and they are just a relatively small population - combined they total maybe a fifth of the Westerosi population - with relatively little land under their control.

As for which economy is more vulnerable to a war - an agrarian based economy is not reliant on external trade. And since this war will not take place on Westerosi soil, they can continue planting crops at their leisure.

The Free Cities will see a massive drop in sea trade, however, if Westeros plans this war properly, and has a 5 year ship construction buildup before firing the first proverbial shot. The naval battles will continue across the Narrow Sea, then, for the duration of the War. Cutting the vital Free Cities trade artery.

[Grimbold]

This is all assuming that Westeros could build a navy that would be able to match or destroy anything that Free Cities sent to fight them and thus being capable of blockading trade.

[TheCrannogDweller]

As for the Faceless Men. Now you are bringing magic into it. Then we might as well bring in a greenseer who can warg a school of kraken to pull down the entire Braavosi fleet.

Are they really called schools? :D I thought that only applied to fish.

And no, Faceless Men are not magic. Do you think that faced with being conquered by a foreign power, the FM really won't do anything about it? Furthermore, that whole war effort would require, as you pointed out, the single-minded dedication of a king - but a king is only one man. He could be easily killed - and his heir, too, if need be.

Also, the vast size of the lands west of where Valyria used to be (it looks half as big as Westeros itself) would work against a conquering force, too. There is almost nothing there. It's mostly empty land, with population concentrated around the Free Cities themselves (unless I'm misinterpreting the map).

[fuem]

I should not make topics where I answer my own question :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

On ya son

[khalhotpie]

-Hang on now, no one is saying Westeros could conquer the entire Essos. All of the additional parties you mention, like the Dothraki, Quartheen, Slavers Bay etc. might as well be enemies of the Free Cities as allies of them. They have no bearing on giving one side or the other a better chance.

-As for the Faceless Men. Now you are bringing magic into it. Then we might as well bring in a greenseer who can warg a school of kraken to pull down the entire Braavosi fleet.

-Regarding resources, here is where I think you miss the boat completely.

A citystate like Venice could never hope to match an entire nation like France in the medieval period, in terms of resources. And that is what the Free Cities are based on, essentially. Italian city states from the Middle Ages.

Westeros combined has more of everything. More men. More gold. More iron. More cattle. More sheep. More leather.

The Free Cities punch above their demographic size because of trade. Disrupt that, and they are just a relatively small population - combined they total maybe a fifth of the Westerosi population - with relatively little land under their control.

-As for which economy is more vulnerable to a war - an agrarian based economy is not reliant on external trade. And since this war will not take place on Westerosi soil, they can continue planting crops at their leisure.

The Free Cities will see a massive drop in sea trade, however, if Westeros plans this war properly, and has a 5 year ship construction buildup before firing the first proverbial shot. The naval battles will continue across the Narrow Sea, then, for the duration of the War. Cutting the vital Free Cities trade artery.

- Dothraki hordes regularly patrol near the free cities and individual dothraki (described as donning silks and perfumes when in cities) it wouldnt be too far fetched to imagine the rich free cities offering a khalassar cash as additional mercs plus they have a vested interest in maintining things as they are

slavers bays best customers are the free cities and westeros outlaws slavery...that ones a slam dunk

Quarth will prob have trade relations with westeros but not as deep as the trade in free city goods and slaves

Then of course theres the iron bank and its might ......that alone rules out a united westeros.

- there isnt a greenseeer in the westeros that can do that(yet) nor would they have any interest in a westeros invasion , the faceless men by contrast WOULD ensure no invasion took place or even got off the planning stages.

-The free cities seem to be very populous and (based on tyrions journey) have many towns,farms and villages around them just as in westeros just without the same clear borders or ownership (hence disputed lands between 3 equally powerful cities close to each other)

natural resources seem just fine with no metion of lack of metals , food supplies and the massive forrest of qohor for wood etc.

They do seem based on the itialian city states yes but more like if italy was much much bigger and each state had a country sized chunks of land around them.

valysar for example is noted as a large town outside volantis but westerosi see it as a place they would call a city

-a very bizzare statement to say there will be nothing taking place on westerosi soil....why would the side with the naval superority simply defend and not attack?

In the face of an obvious hostile agressive westeros building forces the free cities would no doubt press their advantage.... dragonstone and KL seem like the obvious first targets

[Basileus777]

It'd be a matter of internal Westerosi politics. In terms of population and resources the 7 Kingdoms absolutely dwarf the free cities. It'd mostly be a matter of getting internal support and financing for such an invasion. With medieval technology the free cities will not be able to stop Westeros from landing troops on their shores. And Braavos is poorly equipped to deal with a siege considering they have no ready access to fresh water without a complicated aqueduct system.

[Fauxdor]

Something to mention is that Danny, in a certain way, has already started her conquest of Essos. So all 7 kingdoms united aren't quite necessary to conquer.

We also have Aegon in Westeros on his conquest. This sets up a possible intercontinental Targaryan dynasty, making it much easier to be in two different places at once.

That may be a bit of a stretch but it's definitely not impossible. Danny doesn't know how to live like the Westerosi. She's spent her whole life in Essos. She may get to Westeros and find that she much prefers Essos.

[Free Northman Reborn]

- Dothraki hordes regularly patrol near the free cities and individual dothraki (described as donning silks and perfumes when in cities) it wouldnt be too far fetched to imagine the rich free cities offering a khalassar cash as additional mercs plus they have a vested interest in maintining things as they are

slavers bays best customers are the free cities and westeros outlaws slavery...that ones a slam dunk

Quarth will prob have trade relations with westeros but not as deep as the trade in free city goods and slaves

Then of course theres the iron bank and its might ......that alone rules out a united westeros.

- there isnt a greenseeer in the westeros that can do that(yet) nor would they have any interest in a westeros invasion , the faceless men by contrast WOULD ensure no invasion took place or even got off the planning stages.

-The free cities seem to be very populous and (based on tyrions journey) have many towns,farms and villages around them just as in westeros just without the same clear borders or ownership (hence disputed lands between 3 equally powerful cities close to each other)

natural resources seem just fine with no metion of lack of metals , food supplies and the massive forrest of qohor for wood etc.

They do seem based on the itialian city states yes but more like if italy was much much bigger and each state had a country sized chunks of land around them.

valysar for example is noted as a large town outside volantis but westerosi see it as a place they would call a city

-a very bizzare statement to say there will be nothing taking place on westerosi soil....why would the side with the naval superority simply defend and not attack?

In the face of an obvious hostile agressive westeros building forces the free cities would no doubt press their advantage.... dragonstone and KL seem like the obvious first targets

My entire position is based on the fact that Westeros has around 4 or 5 times the population of all 9 Free Cities combined.

If we can't agree on that fundamental assumption - with some reasonable room for movement either way - then we simply have a very different understanding of the Ice and Fire world and further debate on this topic is pointless.

As an example, in that worldview, the Free Cities landing a force in Westeros would be a waste of time as they simply don't have the manpower to match the Westerosi forces in any meaningful way and would be overrun without causing any meaningful damage to harvests or Westerosi infrastructure.

Their only hope is to keep the Westerosi hordes at bay during the ocean crossing.

The entire premise is therefore one of a Westerosi giant in the form of ancient China, and the smaller Free Cities alliance in the form of Japan, hoping desperately for a Kamakazi wind to sink the Westerosi fleet before it makes landfall.

If you view the two sides as being more or less equal in terms of numbers, well, that is a very different scenario and one that is not supported by the facts we have been given, in my view.

[khalhotpie]

My entire position is based on the fact that Westeros has around 4 or 5 times the population of all 9 Free Cities combined.

If we can't agree on that fundamental assumption - with some reasonable room for movement either way - then we simply have a very different understanding of the Ice and Fire world and further debate on this topic is pointless.

As an example, in that worldview, the Free Cities landing a force in Westeros would be a waste of time as they simply don't have the manpower to match the Westerosi forces in any meaningful way and would be overrun without causing any meaningful damage to harvests or Westerosi infrastructure.

Their only hope is to keep the Westerosi hordes at bay during the ocean crossing.

The entire premise is therefore one of a Westerosi giant in the form of ancient China, and the smaller Free Cities alliance in the form of Japan, hoping desperately for a Kamakazi wind to sink the Westerosi fleet before it makes landfall.

If you view the two sides as being more or less equal in terms of numbers, well, that is a very different scenario and one that is not supported by the facts we have been given, in my view.

I think we can agree we dont see the populations the same

westeros has few massive cities but bulk of the population is spread out in countless small villages and towns .

the free cites by contrast all seem to be larger than most westerosis cities bar KL and are surrounded by towns and villages some of which tyrion etc would consider cities by westerosi standards HOWEVER this seems to only reach inland so far until we reach vast stretchs or deserted cities and towns....but thats still a signifcant swathe of densely occupied land

I agree westeros has a bigger population than the area around the free cities yes but its not a david vs goliath fight resourcewise at all

I think the problem is u seem to be picturing the free cities like quarth ie big city with next to nothing surrounding them when that isnt the case at all.

as for ravaging westeros their naval superiority combined with vast merchant fleets for transports and the rough est 40-50k or so mercs alone they can land means yes they can hurt westeros just fine.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I think we can agree we dont see the populations the same

westeros has few massive cities but bulk of the population is spread out in countless small villages and towns .

the free cites by contrast all seem to be larger than most westerosis cities bar KL and are surrounded by towns and villages some of which tyrion etc would consider cities by westerosi standards HOWEVER this seems to only reach inland so far until we reach vast stretchs or deserted cities and towns....but thats still a signifcant swathe of densely occupied land

I agree westeros has a bigger population than the area around the free cities yes but its not a david vs goliath fight resourcewise at all

as for ravaging westeros their naval superiority combined with vast merchant fleets for transports and the rough est 40-50k or so mercs alone they can land means yes they can hurt westeros just fine.

We don't disagree on the high number of relatively large settlements surrounding the Free Cities, but that is simply a result of the vastly different urbanization rates between the two civilizations.

The Free Cites are just that, city states, with highly concentrated populations around each city, but these fade away within a couple of hundred miles to empty land for most of Western Essos.

This indeed ties in with your observation that most of Westeros's population lives in the countryside and in small villages.

Since the Free Cities are a post-imperial remnant of the Valyrian civilization, it is worth noting that the urbanization rate of the Italian peninsula during the Roman Empire was estimated at between 25%-40%. That is extraordinarily high compared to say medieval Europe where the percentage of people living in cities larger than 10,000 people was only 3.3%.

That is a vastly lower urbanization rate. Looking at Westeros, that rate could even be as low as 1%, given the wide territories between each of the large cities, and the effect of the strange seasons.

[Biter the Gallant]

Though Westeros is much more bigger, has much bigger population and lot of natural resources, the Free Cities are much more developed and better organized political entities, and they surely can manage their resources much better than the Iron Throne. The westerosi army is mainly feudal, not really capable of several years long overseas campaigns. Westeros probably might win some smaller expeditions against one or two of the cities, but not more. And even in case of total victory, some of the cities would only become vassals of the Iron Throne, sending taxes and providing some fleet in need, but not directly controlled by Westerosi authorities. Westeros is simply not developed enough to colonize anything.

[khalhotpie]

We don't disagree on the high number of relatively large settlements surrounding the Free Cities, but that is simply a result of the vastly different urbanization rates between the two civilizations.

The Free Cites are just that, city states, with highly concentrated populations around each city, but these fade away within a couple of hundred miles to empty land for most of Western Essos.

This indeed ties in with your observation that most of Westeros's population lives in the countryside and in small villages.

Since the Free Cities are a post-imperial remnant of the Valyrian civilization, it is worth noting that the urbanization rate of the Italian peninsula during the Roman Empire was estimated at between 25%-40%. That is extraordinarily high compared to say medieval Europe where the percentage of people living in cities larger than 10,000 people was only 3.3%.

That is a vastly lower urbanization rate. Looking at Westeros, that rate could even be as low as 1%, given the wide territories between each of the large cities, and the effect of the strange seasons.

Yes that vast tract of land from north to south and hundreds of miles inlands seems to be more densely populated than westeros and their cities are large population centres. Westeros population is larger despite is much smaller density due to size of populated land yes but i dont feel its a huge advantage.

Overall the starting huge imbalance in naval power would be too big a factor and the ironbank and faceless men would never allow such an anti free cities coalition to form/remain in westeros.

[Talking Hodor]

Nah, that'd be like combining a Normandy invasion with a protracted land war in Asia. If they want to succeed, they'd need air support, i.e. dragons, and not just three of 'em. And taking Braavos would be like dealing with a Taliban insurgency with a couple dozen Agent 47s in play.

I'm quite sure that Essos' population is many times more than Westeros', and their culture is probably a bit more advanced in several places. Those are city states. Westeros barely has any cities - I think there are only about four or so bona fide metropolises.

If you were to reverse the question - could the Free Cities combined conquer Westeros, I'd be more inclined to agree, especially a Westeros in the state of Book 5. Now that's a low-hanging fruit.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Hang on now, no one is saying Westeros could conquer the entire Essos. All of the additional parties you mention, like the Dothraki, Quartheen, Slavers Bay etc. might as well be enemies of the Free Cities as allies of them. They have no bearing on giving one side or the other a better chance.

As for the Faceless Men. Now you are bringing magic into it. Then we might as well bring in a greenseer who can warg a school of kraken to pull down the entire Braavosi fleet.

Regarding resources, here is where I think you miss the boat completely.

A citystate like Venice could never hope to match an entire nation like France in the medieval period, in terms of resources. And that is what the Free Cities are based on, essentially. Italian city states from the Middle Ages.

Westeros combined has more of everything. More men. More gold. More iron. More cattle. More sheep. More leather.

The Free Cities punch above their demographic size because of trade. Disrupt that, and they are just a relatively small population - combined they total maybe a fifth of the Westerosi population - with relatively little land under their control.

As for which economy is more vulnerable to a war - an agrarian based economy is not reliant on external trade. And since this war will not take place on Westerosi soil, they can continue planting crops at their leisure.

The Free Cities will see a massive drop in sea trade, however, if Westeros plans this war properly, and has a 5 year ship construction buildup before firing the first proverbial shot. The naval battles will continue across the Narrow Sea, then, for the duration of the War. Cutting the vital Free Cities trade artery.

Most of the things stated in this thread miss a big detail: How can The Free cities strike back. Westeros is more a nest of vipers than an united nation. Their natural course of action is being split and only dragons or Roberts hammer held them together.

Once that kind of war starts, there would be pleanty of free cities gold to back up all the second sons, claimers to the throne, or Lords with independence wishes all over westeros. You can even give weapons and transport the free folk to fuck up the north. It would be a madness.

5 kings war would look as a joke.

[Game Of Thrones]

No. Because Faceless Men. FM have eyes everywhere and can kill pretty much everyone.

No. Because Iron Bank. If Westeros could gather an enormous navy, the Iron Bank would probably detect it and support would-be usurpers, and the 7K would fall apart. Remember Jon, saying how kings who piss off the Iron Bank suddenly lose their thrones?

No. Because traders. The anti-Essos coalition would be obvious, and traders would talk about it at home. The Free Cities would immediately invade before Westeros can build a navy (probably King's Landing itself, and unexpectedly, as Braavos alone can make a warship a day), making the Iron Throne lose its taste for invasion/7K fall apart.

No. Because free companies. Once the Free cities are conquered, war ends, and the free companies run out of business. So every single mercenary would fight the invaders, especially since many don't know anything except fighting. They would also be more loyal than in most other wars, as the fate of the companies itself is on stake.

No. Because Unsullied. Once the Free Cities disappear, demand for slaves declines, and Slaver's Bay goes bankrupt. So Astapor would send most of its 10000 unbeatable warriors to fight the invaders.

No. Because Slaver's Bay. Once Slaver's Bay goes bankrupt, well-trained slaves would be harder to find, and there is no place to sell the slaves. This brings Qarth and the Basilisk Islands into the war.

No. Because Dothraki. Once Free Cities are united, Dothraki can be easily repulsed, and the Dothraki lose a major raiding target. So most Dothraki would head west to defeat the invaders in order to maintain the status quo.

So, do you think some 400,000 Westerosi can fight undetectable super-assassins, an incredibly reach bank, about 50,000 mercenaries, 10,000 fearless warriors, 300,000 horselords, and a bunch of Basilisk islanders and Qartheen, and win?

[Sultan of Westeros]

Fact is, Westeros has more natural resources than the Free Cities combined. And the reason Britain was never conquered, is because the entire Europe was never united against it.

Britain or England has been conquered multiple times

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Britain or England has been conquered multiple times

yep. Last time by Luis Suarez and Edinson Cavani.

[Drth Fel]

yep. Last time by Luis Suarez and Edinson Cavani.

Well-played, Ser.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Well-played, Ser.

:)

[ForgottenKnight]

Too far, too rebellious, and not enough valuable resources to warrant it.