Jon Snow return (book spoilers)

[White Harbors Wrath]

Hopefully if/when Jon comes back he says something along the lines of "Oh yeah...I forgot to tell you this before you killed me lolz, but there's a giant army of the dead approaching..."

[The other prince]

whether this strange "eyes"-phenomenon has sth do with it or not, I strongly believe that he will come back - heads up :)

Agreed. I think if they had been trying to leave a hint with his eyes it would have been a bit more obvious. They are not as subtle as the books.

[Ben H'gahr]

You are right in every way. The books are finest Wagyu Kobe beef and the show is BigMac compared to them.

[Ice Breaker]

He will Warg into Ghost. Mel will see it when Davos says Is he dead?

He is not in this body anymore his soul is not in the after world, but in another.

Hes Warged! Where is the Wolf? I can heal his body.

[Ben H'gahr]

I bet $1000 right here that he will not warg into ghost.

[Boudica]

The idea that Martin's main objective is to subvert and surprise is nonsense. No one writes a story for that reason. First rule: the narrative has to hold together. Martin has lost himself in embroidery. He is "wrestling like hell" because he has invented hundreds, if not thousands, of Merrenese knots. Even thinking about untangling all of them gives me an instant migraine.

The idea that Jon can be dispensed with and all of the mystery surrounding him just left hanging, or even worse, explained after the fact in a way that does nothing to further the story just doesn't wash.

This is either the worst plotting I've ever seen/read and/or a lot of people are lying and/or confused, including Martin himself.

We all have our favorite characters. I felt most interested in Arya because I liked her courage and smarts, and she got one of the worst deals of any of the main characters at nine years old. I am less enamoured with her now because I don't identify with assassins even though I understand why she is in the house of black and white and even support her killing the bad guys.

Unlike a lot of people on this board, I very much like Dany and consider her mistakes part of her growth under horrible circumstances. Dany sincerely wants to rule wisely.

In contrast, Jon makes few mistakes while keeping his honor. Kit said Jon should have communicated better with his NW cohort, but I can't see how he would a. have developed the skills to do so or b. been successful given the gross stupidity of al lot of NW brothers.

faeagon is a red herring -- don't look for him to appear in the show

So who does that leave as critical characters to round out the story?

Dany

Arya (as a shadow helping at key moments without recognition at least at first)

Jon

Tyrion helping Dany -- it is already on screen

Bran doing some special magic which is the only way he will leave his tree cave.

Cersei is not going to have a single thing to do in the big conflict with WW. In fact, she is likely to die at the hands of one if her own people don't get to her first.

Jaimie, redeemed or not, just can't be someone who would stand up to WW. He just doesn't care about the big picture at all. He might care about Brienne in the end, but the survival of the human community as a whole. I think not.

Sansa is a good window into events, but I can't see her doing much in the struggle against WW. What would she do? Maybe support Jon's claim to Winterfell and/or the 7 kingdoms throne. Her supposed empowerment this season was a farce. She will never be more than a victim/witness, even if a key witness. Maybe she can do something key at some point, something that saves someone in her family who can make a difference in the WW fight.

After the last Lannister, no one will sit the iron throne for any length of time. No one has sat on it more than a few moon turns since Robert.

Rickon may very well be lord of Winterfell when all is said and done, but even if he is found, he is simply too young to do much of anything except be a fallback option as spring arrives.

Stannis was never, ever going to face a WW even though he wished to. He simply didn't have the spiritual ingredients in his make up to face that kind of magic. Mel couldn't face a WW without Jon no matter what her relationship to her god.

Ergo here are the characters that simply have to survive long enough to face the real threat -- from above:

Dany (fire - perhaps she learns how to be ice in some way -- her dream of the iron throne surrounded by snow and the wall just outside suggests she will understand ice in some way) and Jon (ice and fire)-- of equal importance

Tyrion helping Dany -- it is already on screen -- I do not believe Tyrion is a Targarean of any stripe unless it is discovered back further in his mother's lineage.

Bran -- beyond ice and fire -- on another plane -- doing some special magic which is the only way he will leave his tree cave.

Arya -- ice -- (as a shadow helping at key moments without recognition at least at first)

Therefore: Jon cannot be dead. Fan favorite or not (and for the record I think he is my favorite at this point), there is no story without Jon.

In short, this is the most fracked narrative structure I have ever seen if Jon is dead and I have read thousands and thousands of narratives.

p.s. the white walkers are not heroes. humans do not write narratives in which the forces of global death are heroes. if this is the case, asoiaf is the ultimate post modern narrative about the extinction of the human race. it could be, but it would be a huge disservice to human civilization. even if I believe the sum total of life on this planet would be better off without homo sapiens, and I do, it is inconceivable that anyone would write a story celebrating that. Even huge tragedies do not celebrate mass extinction and human extinction brings with it the extinction of millions of other life forms both in this narrative and in meat space.

edited for grammar, spelling and clarity

This is good post.

I basically think GRRM is just trying to tell an epic story, he often said that the most interesting stories, are the stories about the human hart being in conflict with itself. Jon is really a good example of this narrative in the books. Finding out who his parent really are would be another great moment for creating internal conflict, you would expect that he would have to find out at some point.

Stories are finely interwoven threads, that should tell you something. Writers might at times get a bit fed up with some cliches and troupes, but I dont believe any serious writer would just write stories in order to break certain troupes and cliches. That would mean that you would write a story purely for shock value, which would also end up being another troupe in itself. I really like and respect the show, but when it comes to Jon's death I have to say that they have properly handed the situation more as something for shock value. Which is unfortunate.

Troupes in itself is not a bad thing, it is also the classic building blocks of producing a good story, it depends much more on how the writer deals with the narrative of these classical troupes.

By the end of ADWD, there are so many cliffhangers and fake out deaths, by the time Jon's assassination occurs it just makes you feel somewhat weary. There would definitely have to be some consequences to Jon's assassination attempt, in order to justify such as cliffhanger in a satisfying manner. Unfortunately, I have the fear that this whole event could perhaps turn out to be bad writing or just for the effect of creating suspense unnecessarily. I hope that is not the case, but it is difficult to say as the situation has remained unresolved for so long. At least GRRM has left quite a few clues to resolve the situation.

From the perspective of the story I think the narrative would weaken without Jon, because of the way Jon's character has been built up throughout the books and seasons. The show did go for a more shocking approach by trying to make sure that we believe that Jon is really dead, and they left us with fewer clues then the books. But despite that, there are still quite a few clues, now that we have had time to process the situation, I actually think the biggest clue was that Jon was killed under a cross with traitor written on it. This seems to be a really strong hint towards the resurrection of Jesus. Melisandre arriving at the Wall just in time, would be the other big clue in my opinion.

But the biggest clues might still actually come from Kit Harington himself. I dont think the contract stipulations regarding his hair was ever suppose to be made public. So as silly as it is, and it is quite silly, Kit Harington's hair and beard might still potentially be the biggest spoilers. As much as I dislike the way in which they tried to instill that Jon Snow is truly dead, I also reluctantly have to say that their cliffhanger is working frustratingly good.

I can just see the show runners rubbing their hands together in glee. For the past two days for example, Kit Harington's hair has been trending on facebook. Kit Harington's hair is beating out world news events on some websties, it is a crazy situation. HBO executives and Dan and Dave must really be enjoying this situation.

[Dracarys Snow]

This is good post.

I basically think GRRM is just trying to tell an epic story, he often said that the most interesting stories, are the stories about the human hart being in conflict with itself. Jon is really a good example of this narrative in the books. Finding out who his parent really are would be another great moment for creating internal conflict, you would expect that he would have to find out at some point.

Stories are finely interwoven threads, that should tell you something. Writers might at times get a bit fed up with some cliches and troupes, but I dont believe any serious writer would just write stories in order to break certain troupes and cliches. That would mean that you would write a story purely for shock value, which would also end up being another troupe in itself. I really like and respect the show, but when it comes to Jon's death I have to say that they have properly handed the situation more as something for shock value. Which is unfortunate.

Troupes in itself is not a bad thing, it is also the classic building blocks of producing a good story, it depends much more on how the writer deals with the narrative of these classical troupes.

By the end of ADWD, there are so many cliffhangers and fake out deaths, by the time Jon's assassination occurs it just makes you feel somewhat weary. There would definitely have to be some consequences to Jon's assassination attempt, in order to justify such as cliffhanger in a satisfying manner. Unfortunately, I have the fear that this whole event could perhaps turn out to be bad writing or just for the effect of creating suspense unnecessarily. I hope that is not the case, but it is difficult to say as the situation has remained unresolved for so long. At least GRRM has left quite a few clues to resolve the situation.

From the perspective of the story I think the narrative would weaken without Jon, because of the way Jon's character has been built up throughout the books and seasons. The show did go for a more shocking approach by trying to make sure that we believe that Jon is really dead, and they left us with fewer clues then the books. But despite that, there are still quite a few clues, now that we have had time to process the situation, I actually think the biggest clue was that Jon was killed under a cross with traitor written on it. This seems to be a really strong hint towards the resurrection of Jesus. Melisandre arriving at the Wall just in time, would be the other big clue in my opinion.

But the biggest clues might still actually come from Kit Harington himself. I dont think the contract stipulations regarding his hair was ever suppose to be made public. So as silly as it is, and it is quite silly, Kit Harington's hair and beard might still potentially be the biggest spoilers. As much as I dislike the way in which they tried to instill that Jon Snow is truly dead, I also reluctantly have to say that their cliffhanger is working frustratingly good.

I can just see the show runners rubbing their hands together in glee. For the past two days for example, Kit Harington's hair has been trending on facebook. Kit Harington's hair is beating out world news events on some websties, it is a crazy situation. HBO executives and Dan and Dave must really be enjoying this situation.

Well said; the next season premiere is going to set some records, since everyone and their dog will want to know if he is truly dead.

On another note, I don't foresee him warging into Ghost though...The wolves have been slowly disappearing from the show ( the parallel between the Stark`s lives and their wolves is not emphasized much).

[Ben H'gahr]

Well said; the next season premiere is going to set some records, since everyone and their dog will want to know if he is truly dead.

On another note, I don't foresee him warging into Ghost though...The wolves have been slowly disappearing from the show ( the parallel between the Stark`s lives and their wolves is not emphasized much).

correctly analyzed. Maybe I'm an a-hole by saying this but I'm becoming a little bit annoyed by desperate fanboys who simply don't want to see that there is at least avid evidence that warging in the show is unlikely. They simply decide not to see this - I cannot understand this.

[Valhalla Morghulis]

Yeah, I don't think GRRM will really hugely change the outcomes to his final stories, I was just thinking out loud and throwing some ideas out there just to stir some thoughts so we are all not just chanting - Jon is coming back. But there are a couple of points to consider.

Firstly, altho I'm sure GRRM had a general plotline he envisioned when he started out, as this thing has gotten so big it has clearly taken on a life of its own and the story is largely writing itself, and by GRRM's own admission he is having trouble focussing and reigning it all in, hence doubling the number of intended books he intended to write. So what even he thought would be the endgames of the story when he started out might not be where the story in reality as he writes it takes him. Altho I'm sure he will climax the stories as he initially plannd the route to get there might even still be slightly unknown to him until he sits down to write, or rather let be written, the final book.

Second, is the case of Osha, a minor character in the books but one that GRRM was so impressed by in the shows that he stated he would write more for her. So there is a case of GRRM not being an island and being influenced and adaptable. I don't think this will happen to major characters but the man is only human and affected by outside influences just as we all are, so I don't think everything is set in stone.

[BlueDragon]

Blue Dragon,

again thank you very much for this insightful post. I must say I always wondered what other writers say about these books (I'm also interested what an English Literature professor would say about them, how he sees ASOIF academically).

Your statements make sense to me. But what do you think is the consequence concerning the questions of when TWOW comes out / how many volumes there will be? Is ASOIF an unsolvable problem? What about D&D and their "outline"? Some people say that they did not expect GRRM to wind down TWO5K in 3 books and he did - more or less, maybe he pulls another one and can finish the saga within the next two books?

I am essentially a lit professor. Although my speciality emphasizes the critical importance of scifi to culture, mainstream lit still doesn't accept even Tolkien for the genius he was, so Martin has no chance in hell of ever being taught. Plus the books are too damn long to assign. In any case, although the books are notable for several reasons, the overall writing cannot compare to many, many others. Sorry to say this here, but that is just the way it is. Now, if you want to read brilliant scifi that has a chance of being taught, read Doris Lessing's Shikasta series. Even though she was recognized inside academic literature circles as a significant writer in the realist mode, her scifi series was denigrated to the point of being ignored totally. She claimed they were her favorite books. I used to teach scifi classes but even those have been phased out. Dream on, but scifi still has a long road to hoe in academia. Not in my lifetime will it be taught in mainstream lit courses.

I don't thing asoiaf is unsolvable, just difficult and Martin himself will have to do it. Writing anything this length takes full time concentration and even though he has cut back his activities, he is still doing far too many to finish. I am a fast writer once I sit down (which I don't often because of health problems) and pumping out that many pages is simply a HUGE physical chore. Sitting at a keyboard that long can nearly kill you. Most of you have absolutely no idea the physical toll of sitting still at a keyboard for 12 plus hours a day takes on an older body. There is a good chance I might die before Martin finishes. We are about the same age. I hope he has better health than I or we will never, ever see the end of this series.

This is good post.

I basically think GRRM is just trying to tell an epic story, he often said that the most interesting stories, are the stories about the human hart being in conflict with itself. Jon is really a good example of this narrative in the books. Finding out who his parent really are would be another great moment for creating internal conflict, you would expect that he would have to find out at some point.

Stories are finely interwoven threads, that should tell you something. Writers might at times get a bit fed up with some cliches and troupes, but I dont believe any serious writer would just write stories in order to break certain troupes and cliches. That would mean that you would write a story purely for shock value, which would also end up being another troupe in itself. I really like and respect the show, but when it comes to Jon's death I have to say that they have properly handed the situation more as something for shock value. Which is unfortunate.

Troupes in itself is not a bad thing, it is also the classic building blocks of producing a good story, it depends much more on how the writer deals with the narrative of these classical troupes.

By the end of ADWD, there are so many cliffhangers and fake out deaths, by the time Jon's assassination occurs it just makes you feel somewhat weary. There would definitely have to be some consequences to Jon's assassination attempt, in order to justify such as cliffhanger in a satisfying manner. Unfortunately, I have the fear that this whole event could perhaps turn out to be bad writing or just for the effect of creating suspense unnecessarily. I hope that is not the case, but it is difficult to say as the situation has remained unresolved for so long. At least GRRM has left quite a few clues to resolve the situation.

From the perspective of the story I think the narrative would weaken without Jon, because of the way Jon's character has been built up throughout the books and seasons. The show did go for a more shocking approach by trying to make sure that we believe that Jon is really dead, and they left us with fewer clues then the books. But despite that, there are still quite a few clues, now that we have had time to process the situation, I actually think the biggest clue was that Jon was killed under a cross with traitor written on it. This seems to be a really strong hint towards the resurrection of Jesus. Melisandre arriving at the Wall just in time, would be the other big clue in my opinion.

But the biggest clues might still actually come from Kit Harington himself. I dont think the contract stipulations regarding his hair was ever suppose to be made public. So as silly as it is, and it is quite silly, Kit Harington's hair and beard might still potentially be the biggest spoilers. As much as I dislike the way in which they tried to instill that Jon Snow is truly dead, I also reluctantly have to say that their cliffhanger is working frustratingly good.

I can just see the show runners rubbing their hands together in glee. For the past two days for example, Kit Harington's hair has been trending on facebook. Kit Harington's hair is beating out world news events on some websties, it is a crazy situation. HBO executives and Dan and Dave must really be enjoying this situation.

Good catch: I actually think the biggest clue was that Jon was killed under a cross with traitor written on it. This seems to be a really strong hint towards the resurrection of Jesus.

I missed that one.

And could all of you PLEASE start using the word, "trope," accurately. IT DOES NOT MEAN METAPHOR OR TRICK OR TYPICAL TWIST OF STORY LIKE THE HERO EMERGING VICTORIOUS.

Spelling it correctly would be a good first step.

Wikipedia does say at the top, first quote, I am having difficulty with the formatting on this post. But notice the second quote, the correct use of trope in literary studies is listed. Remember anyone can write a Wikipedia entry. As a scholar, I simply cannot accept the use of the word in the first sense noted below. It means literally to turn a phrase.

Heroes staying alive to vanquish evil is not a trope but rather a narrative convention.

I will post an addition separately because I am having trouble with this window.

A literary trope is the use of figurative language – via word, phrase, or even an image – for artistic effect^[1] such as using a figure of speech. The word trope has also come to be used for describing commonly recurring literary and rhetorical devices,^[2] motifs orclichés in creative works.^[3][4]

The term trope derives from the Greek τρόπος (tropos), "turn, direction, way", derived from the verb τρέπειν (trepein), "to turn, to direct, to alter, to change".^[3] Tropes and their classification were an important field in classical rhetoric. The study of tropes has been taken up again in modern criticism, especially in deconstruction.^[5] Tropological criticism (not to be confused with tropological reading, a type of biblical exegesis) is the historical study of tropes, which aims to "define the dominant tropes of an epoch" and to "find those tropes in literary and non-literary texts", an interdisciplinary investigation of which Michel Foucault was an "important exemplar".^[5]

[BlueDragon]

Yeah, I don't think GRRM will really hugely change the outcomes to his final stories, I was just thinking out loud and throwing some ideas out there just to stir some thoughts so we are all not just chanting - Jon is coming back. But there are a couple of points to consider.

Firstly, altho I'm sure GRRM had a general plotline he envisioned when he started out, as this thing has gotten so big it has clearly taken on a life of its own and the story is largely writing itself, and by GRRM's own admission he is having trouble focussing and reigning it all in, hence doubling the number of intended books he intended to write. So what even he thought would be the endgames of the story when he started out might not be where the story in reality as he writes it takes him. Altho I'm sure he will climax the stories as he initially plannd the route to get there might even still be slightly unknown to him until he sits down to write, or rather let be written, the final book.

Second, is the case of Osha, a minor character in the books but one that GRRM was so impressed by in the shows that he stated he would write more for her. So there is a case of GRRM not being an island and being influenced and adaptable. I don't think this will happen to major characters but the man is only human and affected by outside influences just as we all are, so I don't think everything is set in stone.

Blue highlight: If the story was writing itself, he would be done.

Red highlight: exactly my point

You are contradicting yourself inside your own sentence

• Allegory – A sustained metaphor continued through whole sentences or even through a whole discourse. For example: "The ship of state has sailed through rougher storms than the tempest of these lobbyists."

Antanaclasis – is the stylistic trope of repeating a single word, but with a different meaning each time. Antanaclasis is a common type of pun, and like other kinds of pun, it is often found in slogans.

Irony – creating a trope through implying the opposite of the standard meaning, such as describing a bad situation as "good times".

Metaphor – an explanation of an object or idea through juxtaposition of disparate things with a similar characteristic, such as describing a courageous person as having a "heart of a lion".

Metonymy – a trope through proximity or correspondence. For example, referring to actions of the U.S. President as "actions of the White House".

Synecdoche – related to metonymy and metaphor, creates a play on words by referring to something with a related concept: for example, referring to the whole with the name of a part, such as "hired hands" for workers; a part with the name of the whole, such as "the law" for police officers; the general with the specific, such as "bread" for food; the specific with the general, such as "cat" for a lion; or an object with the material it is made from, such as "bricks and mortar" for a building.

Kenneth Burke has called metaphor, metonymy, synecdoche and irony the "four master tropes".^[7]

[BlueDragon]

p.s.

Warging is very obvious in the show. Bran and Orell (sp?) were clearly positioned as important. I thing D&D may have budget problems with the wolves, but they if they don't include this key aspect of the novels, they will be making a mistake.

I think warging is going to be very important in the fight against WWs. Controlling the dragons at a critical point might be dependent on warging them.

I also think Ayra will connect with Nymeria again and realize her own warging talent.

[Ben H'gahr]

Other question@ Blue Dragon: assume Jon Snow is dead and stays dead (like in stone dead forever): what would this imply / mean for the story?

[BlueDragon]

@ben h

If Jon Snow is dead, then I can't even imagine a resolution (not that he has to survive to the end but at least until the major battle/s with WW).

I DO NOT want to meet anymore major characters unless they have already been introduced in the narrative like Howland Reed, Jon's uncle, the kingsguard who was at the Tower of Joy -- can't remember his name right now.

Talk about deus et machina: new heroes now would be exactly that.

What Dany crosses the sea with Tyrion and defeat the WWs with the help of a series of minor characters like Melissandra, Asha, Podrick, Brienne, etc.? Ridiculous.

Throw in Bran, that helps. Throw in Ayra, that helps. Throw in our blacksmith rower, that helps. Throw in the Blackfish, that helps.

But bringing all these people together will be a huge chore. Davos joins Dany on the basis of what? Rickon is found and hidden further away and then Davos joins Dany. That is a fascinating story/snark. Just think of all the characters who are essentially in hiding and/or invisible: Reed, Jon's uncle, Edmure, the Blackfish, Ayra, Gendry, the super knight from Tower of Joy, Jon's mother if she isn't Lyanna, etc., etc.

Plus we have a long list of possible romances which will have gone nowhere. Very unsatisfying.

And all this time spent on Sansa for her story to go: nowhere???

If Sansa and Theon turn out to be an effective action team, maybe. But Theon is crippled, and Sansa has no special talents of any sort, so what could they do? Testify. That could be critical if it means identifying Arya and Bran and Rickon, but that wouldn't help with the WWs would it? Seems like something for ados when things fall back into place.

Maybe Martin is killing off characters simply because he can't resolve their plot lines. Worst reason evah. . .

Sometimes I think we would all be better off writing our own endings.

So Ben H, how would you end the story?

[Ben H'gahr]

Thanks again for the elaborate answer! Very interesting again and some very valid points IMO.

I don't think a "new hero" will be introduced, that would be ridiculous. On the other hand people say that ASOIF maybe even doesn't have a (single?) hero. But Jon was clearly built up as a more or less classical hero - if he dies now, what can GRRM make out of dies? A "homme de lettre" like you can give the best advice. But srsly, what could GRRM's point w/killing off Jon possibly be?

I agree on the "minor" characters, they can all play some vital / pretty cool role (like Gendry forging Valyrian Steel - fuck yeah over 9000). "Minor" doesn't equal not interesting or unimportant.

Also, GRRM also stated his intention not to introduce new POV characters, so they can only become less fewer.

As for how I would end the story: Well, I am not a writer nor very creative. I do not approach this saga from a "character" point of view. My intellectual education was in the Military and studying Economics (and Math/Statistics to a good degree), I tend to think in terms of a) tactics and B) "who benefits", I try to approach "questions" in ASOIF from a formal-logic-perspective, positivistically infected as I am.

But

One must not forget that there's an unfinished war going on. What's not going to happen is that all of a sudden all parties put differences aside and fight the evil WW. Stannis wants the IT, he will march South after his attempt to take WF.

The Knights of the Vale are also on their way to WF. Davos returns to Manderley w/Rickon, probably dies doing so (Rickon dying would also be pointless and cruel).

Then two points come into play:

1) Will Sansa, to whom the Vale Knights are sworn, fight against her brother? No! This is the moment when family loyalty will triumph over power politics.

2) The deal between Davos and the Northmen is Stark in WF versus Stannis as king. Stannis is no fool: he will agree.

I see a realistic chance that, again, Vale and North unite again, even if this seems "too Hollywood and too happy end" but applying Ockham's Razor: it's the most simple development of the story that does not require all of a sudden crazy plot twists which one cannot foresee anyway. It can at least serve as some sort of trajectory around which possible developments unfold. It makes sense tactically to me.

Then there are still Robb Stark loyalists hiding out in the Riverlands. They will do shit and fight the alliance mentioned above and form a jolly club. That's the best they can get right now.

Who else is in the Riverlands? BWB. Well, and by chance they are kinda associated w/the Red God just like our friend Stannis. I always thought that they might help the Army cross the Neck by commando style attacking the Twins or so^^

Also: who else lies on Stannis' path south? Well, Howland Reed, how convenient. Maybe he can tell Stannis about what REALLY happened at the ToJ^^

I also assume that LF kinda wants to play some trick again and then oops: LSH happens and he spends the rest of his short life with a rope around his neck.

Concerning Dany: I don't know. I think she will go back to Westeros, w/her Dragons to grill the Whights - the Others a) don't expect this, withdraw and regroup B) pull some magic trick so that the forces are at par again.

Don't ask me how she will do that but at some point that girl MUST cross the Narrow Sea or I go apeshit crazy. I can see her calling the whole Dorthraki to Vaes Dorthrak and subduing them since, well ... she has Dragons. Either they bow to her or BBQ. They bow only to the strong and who is stronger than a Dragon? No clue how she makes the horselords cross the narrow sea though.

Because she also has the tendency to do the right thing, I can see her "going North where the real threat (the Others this time) lies", analogous to Mel telling Stannis to go North. Maybe she says "f*ck this crap" after a having grilled the Whights and finds a quiet piece of real estate w/a red door.

I can also see the Dragons die in the fight against the Others b/c otherwise the whole story be reduced to using Dragons to solve problems - she would be kinda like the US before '49 being the only nation w/nukes and thus ... how can I put this politely ... have more leverage than other people one might say.

(f?)Aegon is going to save the Reach from the Ironborn, they declare for him, Dorne will too. He will meet Stannis Army somewhere. In this moment Dany's Army arrives and we have a Battlefield Threesome w/three parties fighting each other. Maybe she uses her Dragons to make the slaughter stop and then says: "I'm your queen - bow or roast".

Critical points:

1) Admittedly my endgame" prediction is kinda Stannis oriented but not because I'm crazy in love with that guy but because he is the person all those guys who are fed up right now can kinda agree on, he is the know that can bring Vale, North, Riverlands together, he is the best choice for e Supreme Commander irrespective of his talents in this field.

2) I seriously have no clue what to make out of the Iron Born. I can see them splitting up in various fractions.

3) Yes it's not new or original or creative

As I said, my "how I'd end the story" is cleary influenced by what I see as most important (the War) and how I tend to analyze information due to my intellectual upbringing if you want. But that's how I see this story end -but, to somehow quote somebody much wiser than me - I'm most probably wrong about half of this, at least^^.

I know it's tl:dr but you asked for it^^

[Dracarys Snow]

p.s.

Warging is very obvious in the show. Bran and Orell (sp?) were clearly positioned as important. I thing D&D may have budget problems with the wolves, but they if they don't include this key aspect of the novels, they will be making a mistake.

I think warging is going to be very important in the fight against WWs. Controlling the dragons at a critical point might be dependent on warging them.

I also think Ayra will connect with Nymeria again and realize her own warging talent.

It's not completely nonexistent...They teased us with some magical elements and nothing happened. The kiss of life, warging, Mel's glamouring...Ok, warging is a bit more prevalent, but what of the rest? It would be kinda awesome if Jon could warg into one of them dragons.

[Dracarys Snow]

Thanks again for the elaborate answer! Very interesting again and some very valid points IMO.

I don't think a "new hero" will be introduced, that would be ridiculous. On the other hand people say that ASOIF maybe even doesn't have a (single?) hero. But Jon was clearly built up as a more or less classical hero - if he dies now, what can GRRM make out of dies? A "homme de lettre" like you can give the best advice. But srsly, what could GRRM's point w/killing off Jon possibly be?

I agree on the "minor" characters, they can all play some vital / pretty cool role (like Gendry forging Valyrian Steel - fuck yeah over 9000). "Minor" doesn't equal not interesting or unimportant.

Also, GRRM also stated his intention not to introduce new POV characters, so they can only become less fewer.

As for how I would end the story: Well, I am not a writer nor very creative. I do not approach this saga from a "character" point of view. My intellectual education was in the Military and studying Economics (and Math/Statistics to a good degree), I tend to think in terms of a) tactics and B) "who benefits", I try to approach "questions" in ASOIF from a formal-logic-perspective, positivistically infected as I am.

But

One must not forget that there's an unfinished war going on. What's not going to happen is that all of a sudden all parties put differences aside and fight the evil WW. Stannis wants the IT, he will march South after his attempt to take WF.

The Knights of the Vale are also on their way to WF. Davos returns to Manderley w/Rickon, probably dies doing so (Rickon dying would also be pointless and cruel).

Then two points come into play:

1) Will Sansa, to whom the Vale Knights are sworn, fight against her brother? No! This is the moment when family loyalty will triumph over power politics.

2) The deal between Davos and the Northmen is Stark in WF versus Stannis as king. Stannis is no fool: he will agree.

I see a realistic chance that, again, Vale and North unite again, even if this seems "too Hollywood and too happy end" but applying Ockham's Razor: it's the most simple development of the story that does not require all of a sudden crazy plot twists which one cannot foresee anyway. It can at least serve as some sort of trajectory around which possible developments unfold. It makes sense tactically to me.

Then there are still Robb Stark loyalists hiding out in the Riverlands. They will do shit and fight the alliance mentioned above and form a jolly club. That's the best they can get right now.

Who else is in the Riverlands? BWB. Well, and by chance they are kinda associated w/the Red God just like our friend Stannis. I always thought that they might help the Army cross the Neck by commando style attacking the Twins or so^^

Also: who else lies on Stannis' path south? Well, Howland Reed, how convenient. Maybe he can tell Stannis about what REALLY happened at the ToJ^^

I also assume that LF kinda wants to play some trick again and then oops: LSH happens and he spends the rest of his short life with a rope around his neck.

Concerning Dany: I don't know. I think she will go back to Westeros, w/her Dragons to grill the Whights - the Others a) don't expect this, withdraw and regroup B) pull some magic trick so that the forces are at par again.

Don't ask me how she will do that but at some point that girl MUST cross the Narrow Sea or I go apeshit crazy. I can see her calling the whole Dorthraki to Vaes Dorthrak and subduing them since, well ... she has Dragons. Either they bow to her or BBQ. They bow only to the strong and who is stronger than a Dragon? No clue how she makes the horselords cross the narrow sea though.

Because she also has the tendency to do the right thing, I can see her "going North where the real threat (the Others this time) lies", analogous to Mel telling Stannis to go North. Maybe she says "f*ck this crap" after a having grilled the Whights and finds a quiet piece of real estate w/a red door.

I can also see the Dragons die in the fight against the Others b/c otherwise the whole story be reduced to using Dragons to solve problems - she would be kinda like the US before '49 being the only nation w/nukes and thus ... how can I put this politely ... have more leverage than other people one might say.

(f?)Aegon is going to save the Reach from the Ironborn, they declare for him, Dorne will too. He will meet Stannis Army somewhere. In this moment Dany's Army arrives and we have a Battlefield Threesome w/three parties fighting each other. Maybe she uses her Dragons to make the slaughter stop and then says: "I'm your queen - bow or roast".

Critical points:

1) Admittedly my endgame" prediction is kinda Stannis oriented but not because I'm crazy in love with that guy but because he is the person all those guys who are fed up right now can kinda agree on, he is the know that can bring Vale, North, Riverlands together, he is the best choice for e Supreme Commander irrespective of his talents in this field.

2) I seriously have no clue what to make out of the Iron Born. I can see them splitting up in various fractions.

3) Yes it's not new or original or creative

As I said, my "how I'd end the story" is cleary influenced by what I see as most important (the War) and how I tend to analyze information due to my intellectual upbringing if you want. But that's how I see this story end -but, to somehow quote somebody much wiser than me - I'm most probably wrong about half of this, at least^^.

I know it's tl:dr but you asked for it^^

Very very elaborate. My ending : WW win because everyone else were too busy fighting each other to notice.

[Meriwyn]

Can I add a bit here? This may be the hopeless romantic in me, but here is how I see the "end" for Brienne/Jaime/Cersei...

Jaime and Brienne manage to somehow escape whatever trap LSH has for them. I don't know if this will end up with LSH dying AGAIN or what-have-you. Jaime finally breaks down and realizes he loves Brienne, they have one night together before he tells her he must go back to King's Landing to "take care" of his sister. Cersei, meanwhile, will have gone completely "Aerys mad" and will most likely attempt (or succeed) to burn King's Landing to the ground. I have a feeling GRRM didn't leave all that dragon fire underneath the city for no reason. She'll take out most or all of KL and Jaime returns...they have it out, and he ends up either strangling or stabbing her, thus making HIM the valonqar (technically he's younger as he came out second) and not Tyrion (I honestly don't think Tyrion will ever see his brother and sister again).

Now, since this is ASOIAF and no one ends up happy EVER...I have a feeling that since Jaime and Cersei entered this world together, they're probably going out the same way. As he kills her, she will either stab, strangle or poison him in return before she dies.

Brienne ends up pregnant with Jaime's child and (hopefully) survives the books.

Just my imagination working LOL

[Philpenn]

I think some colleges do have ASOIAF classes. Probably not on whole books, but on smaller parts (theories, or themes, or something). I remember being crazy jealous when I heard about them, having graduated about a decade earlier.

[Rinn80]

Other question@ Blue Dragon: assume Jon Snow is dead and stays dead (like in stone dead forever): what would this imply / mean for the story?

Well, the thing is if Jon is dead, then there are obviously only little child heroes left except Dany who is a bit more mature than the rest (in the story).

Bran is probably 14, then let's even not talk about his little brother who should be around 10 maybe ?

Who else do we have ? Arya is even younger than Bran, and what the show has proven is that young ppl are not suited to rule or become great heroes, see: Joffrey, Tommen and Robyn Arryn, because they lack experience. Then we have Sansa, she might have a bigger chance of becoming a great personage, but she has no dragons, no any supernatural abilities for so far. So I won't go with her too.

And if you especially lack political and military experience and have no any special skill/edge, then you are doomed and end up dying soon because you are swimming with sharks and old foxes.

So my point is, to balance things out, the story needs a mature skilled hero.

That could be Dany only and/or Jon resurrected or healed somehow.