Have the Dothraki visited Asabhad?

[TheSovereignGrave]

The ancestors of the Dothraki and the other horse peoples of the grasslands knew better, for some remembered crossing those mountains from the lands that lay beyond.

Also, from the Wiki:

The ancestors of the Dothraki came from the lands beyond the Bone Mountains in the Further East, leaving behind the bones that give the Bone Mountains their name.

All that proves is that the ancestors of the Dothraki migrated westwards across the Bones. Which is not a fact that I am disputing.

[Maester of Valyria]

All that proves is that the ancestors of the Dothraki migrated westwards across the Bones. Which is not a fact that I am disputing.

I'm not sure where we are disagreeing then. I have evidence to show the Dothraki came west of the Bones shortly after the Doom, laying waste to the Qaathi cities around that time. Are we in agreement here?

[TheSovereignGrave]

I'm not sure where we are disagreeing then. I have evidence to show the Dothraki came west of the Bones shortly after the Doom, laying waste to the Qaathi cities around that time. Are we in agreement here?

No. The Dothraki were already west of the Bones by the time of the Doom. We don't have any specific mention of them coming across the Bones during the Doom, just "heading west". We also know that they'd been a nuisance to the Sarnori for centuries before the Doom, and not just suddenly appearing as a completely new threat to people like the Sarnori and Qaathi. Plus there's a large stretch of grassland east of Sarnor and west of the Bones, so that's likely where they'd been living in the centuries between their migration across the Bones and the Doom.

[Falcon2908]

I'm not sure where we are disagreeing then. I have evidence to show the Dothraki came west of the Bones shortly after the Doom, laying waste to the Qaathi cities around that time. Are we in agreement here?

Not after the Doom.

More like after the Long Night

[Jak Scaletongue]

"The east" does not necessarily mean "east of the Bones". There's a lot of wide open plains and steppes in between Sarnor and the Bones. They were likely living there; else they couldn't have been a nuisance to the Sarnori for centuries before the Doom.

 

The ancestors of the Dothraki and the other horse peoples of the grasslands knew better, for some remembered crossing those mountains from the lands that lay beyond.

Also, from the Wiki:

The ancestors of the Dothraki came from the lands beyond the Bone Mountains in the Further East, leaving behind the bones that give the Bone Mountains their name.

So, I think I get what's trying to be established - please, correct me if it's not!

The migration across the Bones happened and the Dothraki hung out in the foothills (far east of the Dothraki sea, but west of the Bone Mountains) being a nuisance to the Sarnori for some centuries.  Then the Doom happened, and the Dothraki expanded *further* west, without the Sarnori, Valyrians, etc being able to hold them back like they could before the Doom.

That's how I understood both this conversation and the quotes from the Wiki and WoIaF.  The Dothraki didn't come over the Bone Mountains and started wiping civilizations out from the get-go.  Even the Dothraki would need an adjustment period, a consolidation period and with a powerful civilization like the Sarnori blocking their way while the Dothraki are still getting their bearings in a new home - the Sarnori would have the upper hand in their interactions, until they were defeated by the Valyrians.  And with the Valyrians having dragons, the Dothraki wouldn't be able to dominate the steppes until *after* the Doom.  Which they did.  Quite well!

But maybe that's just me!

ETA - Just realized I missed a page!  I agree with Falcon2908 - Dothraki come over the mountains after Long Night, hang around the westside of the mountains causing sh!t for the Sarnori, Valyrians beat Sarnori and even the Dothraki are smart enough to realize they can't beat dragons so they play "nice" (for Dothraki) for a few more centuries, then the Doom happens and the Dothraki have the run of (most of) the place!

 

As for the skull fences seen in the Red Waste - didn't the Celts build "ghost fences" in a similar manner?  They were used to scare their enemies, basically.  I know I've come across the idea when reading about the Romans fighting Gauls and Britons. 

[TheSovereignGrave]

Well, the Sarnori were never beaten by the Valyrians. They had one of their colonies bordering it, but I don't think Sarnor and the Freehold ever went into actual warfare. The Dothraki were a nuisance because they were divided among numerous different khalasars (and since they occupied less territory, those khalasars were likely smaller since there were likely less Dothraki). But then Mengo went and united the Dothraki into a single khalasar and turned his attentions westwards to Sarnor, who didn't take them seriously.

[direpupy]

Well, the Sarnori were never beaten by the Valyrians. They had one of their colonies bordering it, but I don't think Sarnor and the Freehold ever went into actual warfare. The Dothraki were a nuisance because they were divided among numerous different khalasars (and since they occupied less territory, those khalasars were likely smaller since there were likely less Dothraki). But then Mengo went and united the Dothraki into a single khalasar and turned his attentions westwards to Sarnor, who didn't take them seriously.

As i read twoiaf the Sarnori where allies of the Valyrians in the Giscari wars  with the exeption of i believe the third war when some of the Sarnori cities sided with Ghis and some with Valyria. So i doubt the where ever conquered i think they remaind allies.

I agree thet the unification by Khal Mengo was wat enabled the Dothraki to start dominating the sea of grass.

[Maester of Valyria]

I was wrong. Despite several quotes that indirectly supported my original opinion, I've found this one which indicates that the Dothraki were occupying the Grasslands before the Doom:

Also, the confederation of cities later called the Kingdom of Sarnor survived the Valyrian expansion thanks to the great plain that separated one from the other...only for that plain and the people who occupied it—the Dothraki horselords—to be the source of Sarnor's downfall after the Doom.

 

However, there is also this one which show the Dothraki were neither a serious threat nor united before the Doom:

Travelers name these the Haunted Lands for the many ruined cities that dot them, or the Great Desolation for their emptiness, but it is as the Dothraki sea that these grasslands are best known today. That usage is comparatively recent, however, for the Dothraki are a young race, and it was only since the Doom destroyed Valyria that their khalasars came to dominate these lands, sweeping out of the east with fire and steel to conquer and destroy the ancient cities that once thrived here and carrying off their peoples into bondage.

The fall of the great Sarnori kingdoms took less than a century. Even as the Free Cities of the west became locked in a savage struggle for domination during what became known as the Century of Blood, the grasslands, too, exploded into war. During the years that followed the Doom, the riders of the eastern steppes, hitherto divided into threescore quarrelsome tribes at perpetual war with one another, had finally been united under a single leader, a Dothraki khal called Mengo. Counseled by his mother, the purported witch queen Doshi, Khal Mengo compelled the other nomads to accept his rule, extinguishing or enslaving those who refused.

 

From these two quotes and what we've already established, what we know is:

• The Dothraki have inhabited the grasslands for some time, including before the Doom, but not for more than a few hundred years before that, given that they are described as 'a young race'. This would put their original migration across the Bones at some time within the last thousand years or so (ie 600 years before the Doom), and in reality probably not even that long.
• The Dothraki only commenced their attacks on the Qaathi and Sarnori after the Doom, as they were able to use the chaos to their advantage.
• Prior to the Doom the Dothraki were concentrated mainly in the eastern region of western Essos: ie probably around Vaes Dothrak.
• The destruction of Sarnor and the Qaathi must therefore have taken place during the Century of Blood.
• It was only with the Doom that the Dothraki became a credible threat, due to their organisation under Mengo, and their presumably new-found willingness to attack cities.
• Therefore, the grasslands are now known as the Dothraki Sea.

If there's anything I've missed off or that people don't understand/disagree with, please say.

 

I believe my confusion came from the lines: 'the riders of the eastern steppes', and 'sweeping out of the east', along with the fact that they did come from east of the Bones in the fairly recent past. I apologise for my errors.

 

[direpupy]

 

• The Dothraki have inhabited the grasslands for some time, including before the Doom, but not for more than a few hundred years before that, given that they are described as 'a young race'. This would put their original migration across the Bones at some time within the last thousand years or so (ie 600 years before the Doom), and in reality probably not even that long.

 

I don't think it was in the last 1000 years becouse they would have to pass the bones before the fortress cities  of Kayakayanaya, Shamyriana and Bayasabhad where founded and they seem to be rather old.

 

[Maester of Valyria]

I don't think it was in the last 1000 years becouse they would have to pass the bones before the fortress cities  of Kayakayanaya, Shamyriana and Bayasabhad where founded and they seem to be rather old.

 

Those fortress-cities are designed to keep armies out of the east, not in. I can imagine the inhabitants of the cities would have just let the Dothraki go on their way from east to west with minimal fuss. Who cares if they leave and ravage the grasslands? At least now the Far East only has to worry about the Jogos Nhai.

[direpupy]

Those fortress-cities are designed to keep armies out of the east, not in. I can imagine the inhabitants of the cities would have just let the Dothraki go on their way from east to west with minimal fuss. Who cares if they leave and ravage the grasslands? At least now the Far East only has to worry about the Jogos Nhai.

Not likely Kayakayanaya is in perpetual conflict with the Jogos Nhai who try to pass it to get to the west so why would they let the Dothraki pass but not the Jogos Nhai that does not make any sence at all.

[Blackfyre Bastard]

I don't think it was in the last 1000 years becouse they would have to pass the bones before the fortress cities  of Kayakayanaya, Shamyriana and Bayasabhad where founded and they seem to be rather old.

 

The Dothraki being described as a "young race," probably means they have been around (west of the Bones) as a people, for 1000 years (probably 2000,) but not as far as the Long Night or before the Patrimony of Hyrkoon. I think that maybe the Jogos Nhai defeated the Dothraki and these had to flee for their lives the hard way: not through the comfortable Steel, Stone or Sand Roads, which are guarded by the Fortresses and would have made good of a ragged bunch of Screamers with the tail between their legs, but through the mountain passes, a much more difficult and dangerous feat. Probably only a few survived (the most hardened and tough) and in the centuries to come they had to replenish their numbers. I don't know why this traumatizing event is not recalled through legends or songs (not very Dothraki-like) but I think it is carried through their way of life and customs, which ensure that only the strongest survive.

[direpupy]

The Dothraki being described as a "young race," probably means they have been around (west of the Bones) as a people, for 1000 years (probably 2000,) but not as far as the Long Night or before the Patrimony of Hyrkoon. I think that maybe the Jogos Nhai defeated the Dothraki and these had to flee for their lives the hard way: not through the comfortable Steel, Stone or Sand Roads, which are guarded by the Fortresses and would have made good of a ragged bunch of Screamers with the tail between their legs, but through the mountain passes, a much more difficult and dangerous feat. Probably only a few survived (the most hardened and tough) and in the centuries to come they had to replenish their numbers. I don't know why this traumatizing event is not recalled through legends or songs (not very Dothraki-like) but I think it is carried through their way of life and customs, which ensure that only the strongest survive.

This certainly is a possibility the three roads are the only passes that a army could use to move trough the Bones but there are probably numereus smaller passes.

[Blackfyre Bastard]

This certainly is a possibility the three roads are the only passes that a army could use to move trough the Bones but there are probably numereus smaller passes.

Yes, it is stated as such in TWoIaF.

“A thousand roads lead into the Bones,” wise men say from Qarth to Qohor, “but only three lead out.” As impassable as the Bones appear from afar, there are indeed hundreds of footpaths, goat tracks, game trails, streambeds, and slopes by which travelers, traders, and adventurers may find their way into the heart of the mountains. In certain places, ancient carved steps and hidden tunnels and passages exist for those who know how to find them. Yet many of these paths are treacherous, and others are dead ends or traps for the unwary.
Small parties, well armed and well provisioned, may make their way through the Bones by myriad ways when led by a guide who knows the dangers. Armies, trading caravans, and men alone, however, are well advised to stay to the main routes, the three great mountain passes that bridge the worlds of east and west: the Steel Road, the Stone Road, and the Sand Road.

[Maester of Valyria]

Not likely Kayakayanaya is in perpetual conflict with the Jogos Nhai who try to pass it to get to the west so why would they let the Dothraki pass but not the Jogos Nhai that does not make any sence at all.

The Jogos Nhai don't want to pass Kayakayanaya (what a name!), they just want to sack it. The Wiki page on them has a pretty good summary of their reasons: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jogos_Nhai

 

The Dothraki being described as a "young race," probably means they have been around (west of the Bones) as a people, for 1000 years (probably 2000,) but not as far as the Long Night or before the Patrimony of Hyrkoon. I think that maybe the Jogos Nhai defeated the Dothraki and these had to flee for their lives the hard way: not through the comfortable Steel, Stone or Sand Roads, which are guarded by the Fortresses and would have made good of a ragged bunch of Screamers with the tail between their legs, but through the mountain passes, a much more difficult and dangerous feat. Probably only a few survived (the most hardened and tough) and in the centuries to come they had to replenish their numbers. I don't know why this traumatizing event is not recalled through legends or songs (not very Dothraki-like) but I think it is carried through their way of life and customs, which ensure that only the strongest survive.

This is quite possibly what happened: it was either this or the warrior-women letting them go on through. I hope we find out before the end of the series.

[direpupy]

The Jogos Nhai don't want to pass Kayakayanaya (what a name!), they just want to sack it. The Wiki page on them has a pretty good summary of their reasons: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jogos_Nhai

Actually the woiaf clearly states that they want to sack Kayakayanaya so that they can then conquer the rich lands to the West, so your wrong they most definetly do want to pass Kayakayanay.

the wiki page you linked to actually also say's so "over the centuries dozens of jhattars have led armies up the Steel road and broken against the walls of Kayakayanaya. Nevertheless, the moonsingers sing of the glorious day when the Jogos Nhai will prevail over the remnants of Hyrkoon and spill over the mountains to claim the fertile lands beyond."

[Maester of Valyria]

Actually the woiaf clearly states that they want to sack Kayakayanaya so that they can then conquer the rich lands to the West, so your wrong they most definetly do want to pass Kayakayanay.

the wiki page you linked to actually also say's so "over the centuries dozens of jhattars have led armies up the Steel road and broken against the walls of Kayakayanaya. Nevertheless, the moonsingers sing of the glorious day when the Jogos Nhai will prevail over the remnants of Hyrkoon and spill over the mountains to claim the fertile lands beyond."

 

I see; it appears I was mistaken. Thank you for pointing this quote out.

[direpupy]

I see; it appears I was mistaken. Thank you for pointing this quote out.

Your welcome, with al the information thats avalibel its easy to somtimes mis things it happens to me al the time.

[heirofValyria]

This is pure speculation but it could be possible that the Dothraki were introduced to the Steppes of Essos similarly to how the Anglo-Saxons were introduced to Brittania. The original rulers of the grasslands [Sarnori] wanted mercenaries to fight during the chaos of the bleeding years. Their hired mercs [Dothraki] lost interest in serving them and turned against their former patrons and took their lands in a series of migrations and invasions. Culminating in a last battle that ended indigenous rule of the lands (see battle of deorham for similarities).

[TheSovereignGrave]

This is pure speculation but it could be possible that the Dothraki were introduced to the Steppes of Essos similarly to how the Anglo-Saxons were introduced to Brittania. The original rulers of the grasslands [Sarnori] wanted mercenaries to fight during the chaos of the bleeding years. Their hired mercs [Dothraki] lost interest in serving them and turned against their former patrons and took their lands in a series of migrations and invasions. Culminating in a last battle that ended indigenous rule of the lands (see battle of deorham for similarities).

Except we've already established that the Dothraki arrived far earlier than that. And we know how the Dothraki ended up destroying the Sarnori.