Ice Dragons = Wight Dragons

[Zirex]

I will start discussing about the obsidian:

In Bran's last chapter of GoT Maester Luwin talks about the children of the forest and their hunting weapons that the maesters call obsidian. But the wildling Osha (who has lived her life beyond the Wall and grew up with first men tales) names it the dragonglass. The smallfolk call it dragonglass, because they think it is made by dragons. Now let's keep in mind that the dragons in this dragonglass tales are not the Targaryen dragons that the Westerosi have met recently. No. The tales of the dragonglass, the children of the forest and the last hero are from more than 8000 years ago. So, is the Aegon's Conquest not the first time the Westerosi have met the dragons? Well, there are the tales of Ice Dragons (even though the dragonglass were probably made by the normal dragons). And also there is a constellation of stars called the Ice Dragon, which is probably named after the actual Ice Dragons.

So what are the Ice Dragons? And if the Westerosi lived with these creatures. why not call it with a single name, like simply "Dragon"? I mean if the Ice Dragons were the native species to the Westerosi, logically they would name it "Dragon", and when they met Aegon and his sisters, they would say "Hey look they are riding Fire Dragons! A new kind of the Dragons of the old tales!". I hope I could explain to you what I mean. My point is, there were not only the Ice Dragons in Westeros, but originally there were also the normal dragons. Probably it is the children of the forest who came up with the term "Dragon".

Now, my theory is, when the First Men came to Westeros, they met the children of the forest, the giants, the white walkers and the ice dragons. Why only ice dragons? Where were the normal fire breathing ones? Well, they were actually there, except, you know, they were wights. The tales say that the Ice Dragons are usually bigger than the fire dragons. Why tho? The only explaination I have for this is that when the dragons die of old age, they are bigger than the young ones. It is like asking, why are the zombies usually older than the humans? The Others can raise humans, bears, wolves, giants, and probably every creature as wights. Why not Dragons?

I know my theory raises questions like "where the hell did the dragons come to westeros from?", "Why did they all die?", "Are these dragons connected to Asshai?". Well, I don't know. But it is still fun to think about. Also this theory goes parallel with "Stone Dragons = Greyscaled Dragons", but I haven't thought about it that much.

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

Thing is, GRRM wrote a story with an ice dragon that may be connected to ASoIaF (there's conflicting stories and I'm not sure if GRRM has weighed in on it, some publishers claim it is) where the dragon was clearly not a wighted dragon, as it turned into a pool of cold water.  This could mean a connection to the Others, as they melt when killed, but wighted animals keep their form.

There's a theory that the Others are incorporeal beings that create solid forms by freezing the atmosphere, they are made of frozen nitrogen, oxygen, CO2, and water.  An Ice Dragon may be something like that.

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said:

Thing is, GRRM wrote a story with an ice dragon that may be connected to ASoIaF (there's conflicting stories and I'm not sure if GRRM has weighed in on it, some publishers claim it is) where the dragon was clearly not a wighted dragon, as it turned into a pool of cold water.  This could mean a connection to the Others, as they melt when killed, but wighted animals keep their form.
~snipped~

I have the Ice Dragon book by GRRM and it is awesome and if George himself had not stated on his own Not A Blog website that it is NOT in the same world, I would have guessed it was. Everything is the same and it could easily be set in the north and I would love it if it was. I have an old copy and a newer copy here. The newer copy has it printed on the cover (marketing ploy) that it is set in the same world as ASOIAF. But George says no. That ice dragon is made of ice, melts under a warm hand and melts into ponds of water when they die. The little girl, Adara, is described as being unusually cold to the touch in the beginning of the story and that is why she does not melt the dragon.

Now... on to ASOIAF ice dragons:

First, and to get this out of the way real quick, Jon could be the proverbial ice dragon that rises from under the wall because of his (most likely) Targaryen heritage and him being dead in an ice cell then resurrecting. So some of what we are reading could just be foreshadowing of that event.

Second, there are hints of ice dragons being around in the past but I think they are not made of ice. Just live in the icy lands and maybe their coloring. Some possible proof:

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III As Hodor he explored the caves. He found chambers full of bones, shafts that plunged deep into the earth, a place where the skeletons of gigantic bats hung upside down from the ceiling.

>>>Then we have Viserion, the white one:

A Dance with Dragons - The Dragontamer

 Rhaegal was chained to the wall and floor the last time I was here, the prince recalled, but Viserion hung from the ceiling.

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys VIII

The dragons craned their necks around, gazing at them with burning eyes. Viserion had shattered one chain and melted the others. He clung to the roof of the pit like some huge white bat, his claws dug deep into the burnt and crumbling bricks.

And I know what you are thinking, Bran saw an actual giant bat skeleton in the caves. Well, if you do a search in the World Book, there are no references to giant bats at all. Just regular old sized bats. Once in Casterly Rock and once in Sothoryos.

Now, I'm not saying we will see any more ice dragons in this story, but for me personally it would be awesome because I love that idea because this is the type of beast fantasy that draws me in.

The wiki has some good info that covers a lot, but not all so far, history on the dragons.

 

[DarkSister1001]

9 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I have the Ice Dragon book by GRRM and it is awesome and if George himself had not stated on his own Not A Blog website that it is NOT in the same world, I would have guessed it was. Everything is the same and it could easily be set in the north and I would love it if it was. I have an old copy and a newer copy here. The newer copy has it printed on the cover (marketing ploy) that it is set in the same world as ASOIAF. But George says no. That ice dragon is made of ice, melts under a warm hand and melts into ponds of water when they die. The little girl, Adara, is described as being unusually cold to the touch in the beginning of the story and that is why she does melt the dragon.

Now... on to ASOIAF ice dragons:

First, and to get this out of the way real quick, Jon could be the proverbial ice dragon that rises from under the wall because of his (most likely) Targaryen heritage and him being dead in an ice cell then resurrecting. So some of what we are reading could just be foreshadowing of that event.

Second, there are hints of ice dragons being around in the past but I think they are not made of ice. Just live in the icy lands and maybe their coloring. Some possible proof:

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III As Hodor he explored the caves. He found chambers full of bones, shafts that plunged deep into the earth, a place where the skeletons of gigantic bats hung upside down from the ceiling.

>>>Then we have Viserion, the white one:

A Dance with Dragons - The Dragontamer

 Rhaegal was chained to the wall and floor the last time I was here, the prince recalled, but Viserion hung from the ceiling.

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys VIII

The dragons craned their necks around, gazing at them with burning eyes. Viserion had shattered one chain and melted the others. He clung to the roof of the pit like some huge white bat, his claws dug deep into the burnt and crumbling bricks.

And I know what you are thinking, Bran saw an actual giant bat skeleton in the caves. Well, if you do a search in the World Book, there are no references to giant bats at all. Just regular old sized bats. Once in Casterly Rock and once in Sothoryos.

Now, I'm not saying we will see any more ice dragons in this story, but for me personally it would be awesome because I love that idea because this is the type of beast fantasy that draws me in.

The wiki has some good info that covers a lot, but not all so far, history on the dragons.

 

Well stated.  I would LOVE dragons to be in the Wall or under WF, but I think Jon is the Ice Dragon as you mentioned.  Loved that book too.  I have a hard time not picturing Adara as the NQ, but that's just my own head/wishful thinking. 

[The Fattest Leech]

2 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Well stated.  I would LOVE dragons to be in the Wall or under WF, but I think Jon is the Ice Dragon as you mentioned.  Loved that book too.  I have a hard time not picturing Adara as the NQ, but that's just my own head/wishful thinking. 

Yours and mine! I thought the same thing too after reading both stories. I still kinda fantasize about that being true

[DarkSister1001]

2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yours and mine! I thought the same thing too after reading both stories. I still kinda fantasize about that being true

lol, yup.  It would be great!  She had a tragic beginning leading us to feel sympathy for a villain.  Right up his alley.

[Balerion's Whiskers]

GRRM borrowed a number of things from Tad Williams' 'Memory, Sorrow and Thorn' and in that book, the hero Simon Snowlock (Seamon) actually does battle with an ice dragon...a fearsome beast...very much alive. I think that's where he got the idea, but whether an actual ice dragon appears in aSoIaF is up to the author...he could just talk about them as something that happened in Old Nan's tales and wilding stories and we never see an actual one...unless we count Jon as one instead of the beast.

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, Balerion's Whiskers said:

GRRM borrowed a number of things from Tad Williams' 'Memory, Sorrow and Thorn' and in that book, the hero Simon Snowlock (Seamon) actually does battle with an ice dragon...a fearsome beast...very much alive. I think that's where he got the idea, but whether an actual ice dragon appears in aSoIaF is up to the author...he could just talk about them as something that happened in Old Nan's tales and wilding stories and we never see an actual one...unless we count Jon as one instead of the beast.

Snowlock = Snowylocks?

[Balerion's Whiskers]

^^^ Guessing that is a nod to Tad as well.

 

Here's another nod...so I think the ice dragon probably was born in Tad's books.

Quote

Some of his guests were less moderate. They drank too much and boasted too loudly, to her mind. Lord Willum's sons Josua and Elyas disputed heatedly about who would be first over the walls of King's Landing.

 

[DarkSister1001]

15 minutes ago, Balerion's Whiskers said:

GRRM borrowed a number of things from Tad Williams' 'Memory, Sorrow and Thorn' and in that book, the hero Simon Snowlock (Seamon) actually does battle with an ice dragon...a fearsome beast...very much alive. I think that's where he got the idea, but whether an actual ice dragon appears in aSoIaF is up to the author...he could just talk about them as something that happened in Old Nan's tales and wilding stories and we never see an actual one...unless we count Jon as one instead of the beast.

 

13 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Snowlock = Snowylocks?

Battle with obsidian????? 

[The Fattest Leech]

5 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

 

Battle with obsidian????? 

A battle will definitely happen... and I can't wait.

16 minutes ago, Balerion's Whiskers said:

^^^ Guessing that is a nod to Tad as well.

 

Here's another nod...so I think the ice dragon probably was born in Tad's books.

 

I have heard of those books, knew bits and pieces, but never got around to reading them (there are so many books in this world! )

However, I did a quick search of Snowlock and holey cave plot! Talk about similarities between the two, starting with Snowlocks being a kitchen worker and Snowylocks being the one who shows up with the weirwood paste (from the cave-kitchen) to give to Bran (by way of Leaf).