Should the Mountain Clans get the Vale?

[Clegane'sPup]

8 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Those 30-40k men will only lay siege if there are nobles, lords and ladies, to summon them to march towards the mountains, into the passes and siege during a harsh winter.

Scorpion92 believes like I theorize that the mountain clans will attack after the Gates of the Moon are largely destroyed and the Bloody Gate damaged by an avalanche.

There won't be an Eyrie, little of the Gates of the Moon left (but large food stores). Except for Bronze Yohn, most of the nobility shows up at the Gates - all those knights vying for a position with SR, their parents, wives, etc...Imagine a natural disaster on that spot killing many.

Well, several houses might even go straightforwardly extinct. If there are no Lords and Ladies to call for young men to pick up the weapons, and there are no knights to lead the armies.... what chances are there even that there will be an army?

Especially when the mountain clans have no need to penetrate the Vale any further, and won't be bothering the eastern region of the Vale, because they can winter on the largest food stock of whole Westeros: LF's stored food?

For easier reading I took the liberty of placing spaces between your sentences.

 

I do not understand the avalanche theory or where it got its beginnings. If you could or explain to me when the avalanche is going to happen. Is it going to be in WoW or DoS?  Last I read, in the Alayne preview chapter there are plans of a tourney at the Gates of the Moon that is located somewhere behind the Bloody Gate.

Is the avalanche going to start at the Eyrie, the smallest of the castles, take down the Sky way castle, the Snow way castle, the Stone way castle and then crumble into the Gates of the Moon which then slides into the Bloody Gate and takes it down?

Are you suggesting that Timett and the Vale mountain clans are going to bind together and form one big tribe to overthrow all of the Lords of the Vale?

In Clash LF tells Tyrion that clansmen are raiding out of the Mountains of the Moon in greater number than ever before… and better armed.

In Game Tyrion says, “First, though, I have some promises of my own to keep," he said as he sliced off a wedge. "I shall require three thousand helms and as many hauberks, plus swords, pikes, steel spearheads, maces, battle-axes, gauntlets, gorgets, greaves, breastplates, wagons to carry all this—"

Tyrion wants the Vale to be a smoking wasteland. Tywin entices the clans by saying they will get what Tyrion promised and more.  There is a battle at the Green Fork after which Tywin sends Tyrion off  to KL with what is left of Tyrion’s Vale clans. Did Tyrion have 3000 clansmen with him when he left the Vale?

After the Battle of the Blackwater in Swords I am told, "The Stone Crows are still in the kingswood. Shagga seems to have taken a fancy to the place. Timett led the Burned Men home, with all the plunder they took from Stannis's camp after the fighting. Chella turned up with a dozen Black Ears at the River Gate one morning, but your father's red cloaks chased them off while the Kingslanders threw dung and cheered."

I guess what I am asking is when the avalanche will happen and how are the Vale mountain clans going to overcome the Vale Lords and their armies? As far as I know Timett is suppose to be fierce but how is the 20 something going to gather all the bickering clans into a mighty force to overtake the Vale?

I am not really sure where LF is storing the food, but I kinda think that the food is being stored somewhere like Gulltown.

[Ser J]

Since ownership will probably be determined by strength of arms whoever ends up with it likely won't be the most 'deserving' (however that word is justified).

[LogicalLeopard]

The mountain clans should never be given the Vale, because in order to hold a territory, you need power AND respect. The latter they'll probably never have. I mean, a Bolton may hate the Starks, but at the end of the day, he can at least be civil and obey a Stark, because the line is noble. Less noble lines, like the Tyrells need a powerful king with dragons to put them on the throne, and lots of power of their own to keep them there. If the mountain clans managed to get together AND pick a leader, no one but Dani and dragons will put them there.

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

For easier reading I took the liberty of placing spaces between your sentences.

 

I do not understand the avalanche theory or where it got its beginnings. If you could or explain to me when the avalanche is going to happen. Is it going to be in WoW or DoS?  Last I read, in the Alayne preview chapter there are plans of a tourney at the Gates of the Moon that is located somewhere behind the Bloody Gate.

Is the avalanche going to start at the Eyrie, the smallest of the castles, take down the Sky way castle, the Snow way castle, the Stone way castle and then crumble into the Gates of the Moon which then slides into the Bloody Gate and takes it down?

Are you suggesting that Timett and the Vale mountain clans are going to bind together and form one big tribe to overthrow all of the Lords of the Vale?

In Clash LF tells Tyrion that clansmen are raiding out of the Mountains of the Moon in greater number than ever before… and better armed.

In Game Tyrion says, “First, though, I have some promises of my own to keep," he said as he sliced off a wedge. "I shall require three thousand helms and as many hauberks, plus swords, pikes, steel spearheads, maces, battle-axes, gauntlets, gorgets, greaves, breastplates, wagons to carry all this—"

Tyrion wants the Vale to be a smoking wasteland. Tywin entices the clans by saying they will get what Tyrion promised and more.  There is a battle at the Green Fork after which Tywin sends Tyrion off  to KL with what is left of Tyrion’s Vale clans. Did Tyrion have 3000 clansmen with him when he left the Vale?

After the Battle of the Blackwater in Swords I am told, "The Stone Crows are still in the kingswood. Shagga seems to have taken a fancy to the place. Timett led the Burned Men home, with all the plunder they took from Stannis's camp after the fighting. Chella turned up with a dozen Black Ears at the River Gate one morning, but your father's red cloaks chased them off while the Kingslanders threw dung and cheered."

I guess what I am asking is when the avalanche will happen and how are the Vale mountain clans going to overcome the Vale Lords and their armies? As far as I know Timett is suppose to be fierce but how is the 20 something going to gather all the bickering clans into a mighty force to overtake the Vale?

I am not really sure where LF is storing the food, but I kinda think that the food is being stored somewhere like Gulltown.

Avalanche is set up to happen in tWoW as the tourney that will take several days is in progress. It needs a crowd and a lot of people gathered in one place. Narratively it would happen at the seeming culmination of LF's plans regarding the match of Sansa-Harry. It would appear as if his political dreams and hers regarding gaining allies to return to WF are within their grasp. And then literarally it will get overturned in the chaos of the disaster. Either a 'tremor' (earthquake) or an angry child (SR) running off onto the mountain would trigger it. And the 'tremor' may even possibly be related to the blowing of the Horn of Joramun (if it causes earthquakes as some think). It takes the Eyrie along in its path and everything else in its wake as it crashes the Gates of the Moon. The Bloody Gate will not be destroyed, but damaged, so that it remains good enough for survivors to go out and defend there, but impossible to hold. 

The evidence for the avalanche foreshadowing can be read in "Sansa and the Giants" article in my sig. Not all the food can be at Gulltown. As Lady of the Vale, Lysa would have demanded food taxation to be brought to her central stores as well (the Gates of the Moon). The Lords Declarant basically hostaged that food supply at the Gates in aDwD. 

Tyrion had 300 mountain clan warriors with him. There are 3000 warriors though, because that is the order of the new hauberks and weaponry for the mountain clans. Timett and Chella returned. Shagga did not. The interesting thing is that Tyrion taught the clan the advantages of hierarchical rule (except for the Burned Men who already seem to have a more hierarchical rule with Timett as 'Red Hand', and who don't mutter and protest when someone tells them something to do). It's evident that Chella and her clansmen were not against it after experience, since she tried to offer her services again after the Blackwater. Only the Storm Crows and Shagga are the ones who act like petulent teens who wish to prove at every turn that nobody can tell them what to do or not do. What is interesting is that the World book tells us that mountain clans attacked in the past during winter times. That actually makes sense: the winter forces them to get down from the mountains (both cold and food shortages), as well as a nothing-or-everything attitude (see Northern mountain clans with their men going out to die). The clans have a healthy fear and respect for the Burned Men, and the Burned Men have a healthy fear and respect for Timett. And plenty of them had to learn to work together while with Tyrion. So, basically, Tyrion gave them the experience to accept mutual cooperation and a hierarchy. So, yes, I think Timett may lead a force of cooperative mountain clans. After all, originally the Andals used the inner disputes amongst the First Men when they first invaded the Vale, but at some point the First Men elected a king and united after Royce, when the Andals were feuding amongst themselves. The Andals united in time and followed the Flacon Knight who ended the First Men rebellion in one big sweep on the Giant's Lance (the mountain of the Eyrie).

However, the avalanche will make communication difficult, as well as passing from east to west. And with LF getting Harry to agree to wed Alayne there is no way that he and Yohn would ever see eye to eye. And LF is no falcon knight. Add the possibility that Sansa figures out LF's role in KL and the death of her father and the fall of the Stark house and she might have his head on a spike. So, I think we will see a reversal of everything in the Vale.

Preferably I'd hope Yohn Royce gets to be Lord of the Vale, and I think he will be able to command at least a big enough army. But he might have to cooperate with Timett who combines Andal blood (possibly) with fire magic (the fire witch the Burned Men worshipped) and First Men-Old Gods into one person. We see something similar with Cat who's more Andal/Southron, revived by fire magic, but working for the Old Gods (or heck even Gendry). Same thing with Jon: Old Gods worship, dragon blood, possibly working with Andal knights. 

[Ser Arys Redshirt]

I still subscribe to the crackpot theory that Timmet son of Timmet is the lawful heir to the Vale, being the son of the elder sister to Harry the Heir's mother, putting him ahead in the line of succession.  Maybe I play Crusader Kings too much.

[Not a kneeler]

There is no evidence that I can find that indicates the mountain clans have a self-sustaining culture. They are subsistence people who have no product they produce to trade. They build no roads, have very little co-operation between clans. They ae not organized fighters. They add nothing to civilization. In these books we see the northern wildlings with the same culture. They produce nothing of their own. They have to steal to get weapons. Civilization has failed to take hold. If civilization is prevail in any land, vast portions of important territory cannot be allowed to fall into the hands of parasites. It borders the Kingsroad and its eastern edge is a hop, skip and a jump from Essos with port cities along its shore. When the power struggles resolve themselves in Westeros, the power in charge must deal with these problems and squash them like the dung beetles they resemble.

[Gremory]

Personally I would love to see the mountain clans somehow get The Vale, simply because I think there just happens to be enough foreshadowing, and innuendo to support the fact that in some way these people are going to be important again to the story line.

That being said first I think the original poster needs to be addressed. If I'm not mistaken the following quote basically sums up your stance on the mountain clans.

On 2/24/2016 at 7:41 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

You have to give respect to get respect. They're just a bunch of filthy, stupid rapists.

Feel free to let me know if this is an incorrect summary of your feelings towards this group of people.

So first of all, as it seems this is not only the OP's PoV, but also what a number of people in this thread feel. I think it is worth mentioning that while it is true that the mountain clans have a history of taking women and raping them. So does pretty much every society in Planetos. In fact we get more in-depth knowledge about the rapes being committed by Roose Bolton and Gregor Clegane then any mountain clan member. What I am hopefully addressing is that to say "They're just a bunch of filthy, stupid rapists." simply because as a whole it is more widely acknowledged that they commit the act of rape, doesn't  actually mean that there are more rapists per person in the mountain clans then say among the nobles in the Vale. The nobles simply are not advertising this, nor is it as simple in Westrosi society to claim that a powerful noble is rapist. On the other hand you can talk about those "filthy, stupid  (mountain clan) rapists" in any pub or inn in the Vale and have a choir singing back to you. My disclaimer, because of course I have to put this in or it is assumed I in some way support these characters actions or choices : I am not saying that anyone who rapes does not deserve punishment, they do. I am saying that acting like one group of people does it more simply because they are more widely reviled should not make others less exempt from your persecution. 

In my opinion this "takeover" is going to happen very much like the other First Men integration we have seen.  The North accepted the northern clans and, whether they like or not, The Watch is being forced into accepting the Wildlings. My suspicion is something along the same lines is going to occur with the mountain clans, there are simply too many pieces that Martin has thrown into his books to make me believe otherwise. The not-ridiculous theory that the reason why the Arryn bloodline being fully fleshed is for Timmet, would be an incredible waste of words and effort if it was just fluff. Along with the constant reminders that the clans, both in The Vale and in the Kingswood, have become very a real danger for anyone without a small army at their back. Finally the major constant I have found with Martin's writing about the First Men. They are important, they are always important. Every group, and every house that has distinct connections to the First Men have been directly involved in Martin's plot. and of course, a Lannister always pays his debts. Tyrion said he'd give them the Vale. Not in the way they want it I would imagine, but nonetheless my bet is one way or another he gets it for them. Probably through a forced marriage and a "tenuous" bloodline of a certain burned man that leaves the clans as "small houses". As other posters have also pointed out, this will of course require a lion-share of dragon-fire to be sure, since in no way shape or form are 3,000 clansmen, with no experience at being true soldiers, going to stand up to the might of the Vale. 

[Jak Scaletongue]

On 2016-02-23 at 2:37 PM, Good Guy Garlan said:

Because nobles don't steal, rape or murder? People like Harlan Hunter and Lyn Corbray are just the very picture of morality and civility. 

I get what you're saying, but the pillaging ways of the Mountain Clans are a result of their seclusion. If anything, Tyrion's dealings with them showed that (some earless nobodies in King's Landing notwithstanding) the Clans are perfectly able to function in a traditional Westerosi society. Heck, in some ways they're even more civilized, by giving women the right to voice their thoughts about important matters. 

In fact, the height of irony was Tywin Lannister and the peasants of KL kicking the Mountain Clans out like animals when they behaved far better than anyone else in the city. I thought that was the sort of social commentary Martin was going for there. 

Let's not forget Ramsay.  The Vale clans as a whole are far more civilized and moral than Ramsay Snow.  I'd venture to say their far more civilized and moral than even Roose.

On 2016-02-23 at 3:26 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

No. They act like savages, because they are. They've had over six thousand years to change. They've chosen to be raping, murdering, thieving savages. The lionazation of these yokels needs to stop.

How?  Do you think anyone in any town in the Vale or Riverlands is accepting of a group of clansmen coming to trade?  They probably run screaming in the other direction before any clansmen even has a chance to say "But I just wanna sell my furs!"

And again - how are they any worse than Roose Bolton?  He's a serial rapist, as is his bastard.  Both are murderers too.

And now they're going back - with a will to change.  Maybe for the better, maybe for the worse, but change is coming to the mountain clans.

What about the wildlings?  This his how we're introduced to the wildlings - as part of Old Nan's scary stories beyond the Wall, as people who f**k Others and have their babies, as rapists and raiders.  How do you feel about wildlings?  Do you still think they're horrible rapists who want nothing more than to raid and kill and steal?  Or has the actual characterization of these wildlings convinced you, like Jon, that these people are *just* people.  No better or worse than any other people.  If you believe that opinions can change once we know more about them, then maybe, just maybe, we don't know enough about these clansmen to determine whether everything we've been told so far is true.  I personally think it's highly biased against the clansmen.  Just like Old Nan's stories were highly biased against the wildlings.

On 2016-02-24 at 6:41 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

You have to give respect to get respect. They're just a bunch of filthy, stupid rapists.

As someone else pointed out, compare the treatment of the North's mountain clans - where the Lords actually treat them with some level of respect - to how the Vale's clansmen are treated - where the Lords treat them as animals.  THAT is the difference - why should they respect the Vale Lords when the Vale Lords don't respect them?  It goes both ways, as well - yes they need to have some respect for the Vale Lords, but the Vale Lords need to respect them too.  THEN, and only then, will things change.  But as long as the Vale Lords look at them like animals, the clansmen WILL NOT respect the Vale Lords.  The Vale Lords need to come off their high horse a bit too.  COMPROMISE is the answer, not stalwart stubbornness in either direction.  It's equally the fault of BOTH the Vale Lords AND the clansmen for the current stand-off and it is equally their responsibility to end the stand-off.

On 2016-02-23 at 3:38 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

I don’t have the app and I didn’t buy the coffee table book so my ideas are not skewed about what is written in the novels.

If in WoW, Martin expands on the Vale mountain clans, I would shake my head and think, here we go again, an expanding of the story, at that point I would put the book down and I would really, in all sincerity say this ASOIAF story is junk.

The clansmen that helped Tyrion have served their purpose. They have gone back to their mountains to do what they do. I don't see them having a major impact. What difference does it make if they are descendants of First Men or descendants of Andals.

Does Martin, as much I dislike the "foreshadow" bs that is espoused, make any reference in any of the books, that the  mountain clans of the Vale have any prominence in his story. I kinda think that the Vale story line is going to play out with LF somehow meeting his demise.

I joke around and make lame statement's sometimes, I read the board threads, see the flames, fall into the traps, but seriously, I thank you for giving me the chance to express my opinion.

 

But they haven't served their purpose.  Tyrion still owes them a debt and "a Lannister always pays his debts."  Tyrion promised them the Vale.  So he's got to at least *try* to pay off his debt to them.

They may have gone back, but they aren't going back to "do what they do" - they're going back armed with steel, information and an education in Westerosi society. 

As for the what the difference between descending from First Men and descending from Andals - read your Vale chapters again.  Andals pushed most of the FM out of the Vale and into the mountains.  If the clansmen were Andals, they wouldn't be IN the mountains.

 

On 2016-02-24 at 1:46 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

To get other peoples oppinions... I'm a little embarassed that I have to explain this to you.

Then why are you repeatedly knocking down other people's opinions when they don't agree with yours?  You wanted other people's opinions, be prepared for them NOT to agree with you. 

 

On 2016-02-24 at 1:48 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

That's quite the imagination. Timmett and what army? If he is the son of an Arryn, he's a bastard, Yohn Royce is loyal to the Arryns and the Mountain Clans are despised for very understandable reasons.

We don't actually know IF he's a bastard.  It's entirely possible he's a legitimate child born in wedlock.  The chances are 50/50 after all, and no one's said he's a bastard so I'm not prepared to take your word for it.

The mountain clans ARE NOT despised for understandable reasons - they are despised because everyone sees them as no better than animals, which means that NO MATTER WHAT they do, for good or ill, the Vale Lords will continue to despise them.  Very similar (though certainly not *exactly* the same) as Victorian era explorers in Africa.  "Black people couldn't ever have built this huge sprawling complex in Great Zimbabwe - they must have had help from white folk, or Arabs.  Maybe it was a trading post for the Arab traders. Yeah, that makes far more sense than Africans building monuments and cities themselves."  Seriously, that happened.  Google Greater Zimbabwe or here's a link to wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Zimbabwe#History_of_research_and_origins_of_the_ruins

Black people are *still* despised in a number of places, for nothing more than being black.  The mountain clans are despised simply for being the mountain clans.  The Vale has ignored the problem for 6000 years.  The Starks didn't ignore the problem and now their clansmen are fiercely loyal, treated with respect and treat others with respect, they've conformed to Westerosi norms for the most part and are valuable vassals and allies.  But the Vale Lords ignored their clansmen, treated them like dirt, never offered the clans a place in society, pushed them out of society completely and proceeded to treat them like animals and not worth the shit on their shoes.  I'd hold a grudge against them too.

On 2016-02-24 at 2:10 AM, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Why at least? How do you know the Mountain Clan members did not demand extra armour?

How do you know that all the equipment even made it back to the Vale considering the losses the Mountain Clan members seemed to have taken in both the Battle of the Fords and the Blackwater.

How do you know that the Arryn girl who went missing even survived? That they dis not feed her to the goats? Or rape and torture her to death? That she did not escape? Or that she has children? or even sons? Or even sons of the same age as Timett?

There is absolutely no indication that there is any connection between Timett and the missing Arryn girl beyond the mention that she was taken by Burned Men and Timett is a burned man.

He seems pretty loyal to the Arryns as well.

 

First of, the proportion of idiots among the clansmen won't be any greater than the proportion of idiots anywhere else.  The size and quality of the girl's retinue would be tip-off enough that she's someone important, and only an idiot would fail to notice that.  Especially since the clansmen specialize in harrying the Vale Lords.  They'd know perfectly well that there's a noble in that train.  Depending on their scouting skills, they may even know *who* exactly she is.  Is it possible she died in the fighting, sure.  It's *just* as possible she didn't.  They wouldn't have fed her to goats, though.  No ransom.  Baelish's tale doesn't include a ransom, sure, but he wasn't exactly getting into details - he was trying to get Sansa to figure out how Harry's the heir.  Maybe she didn't want to leave - figured she'd have more freedom as a clansmen than as the wife of a Bracken.  Maybe she just really didn't want to marry her Bracken husband.  Maybe she did escape but never made it to the Brackens.  Maybe she realized that the clansmen are just people like the rest the of Westeros and decided to marry this nice young chief who's been courting her and have his babies.  It's not out of the realm of possibility - we have no idea what kind of person she was.  Someone like Arya would keep an open mind about them, regardless of the stories she's grown up with.  Jon's grown up with stories about the "raping, thieving, murderous wildlings" and even he's realized they're just men.  Maybe she never did have kids, but just told stories like Old Nan and had relationships with all the children of the clan.  Who knows what was going through her mind - we certainly don't. 

But - and this takes some re-reading - Timett is the ONLY clansmen with Tyrion that seems to have any idea *how* Westerosi society works outside the mountains.  Re-read some of Tyrion's chapters with the clansmen in KL and compare Shagga and Timett.  It's quite clear that Timett understands more of what's expected of him within Westerosi society and culture than Shagga does.  Someone had to teach him that.  Who better than a mother who was raised in the Vale rather than the mountains? And maybe his mother was just a random girl from the Vale, but why bother explicitly naming the Burned Men as the clan that took Jon Arryn's niece if that's not going to matter?  We were giving the names of a dozen or so clans in Tyrion's Vale chapters, some of whom haven't been anything *but* a name.  Why not use one of those named clans, instead of using a clan name that we can and will tie to an actual character if GRRM doesn't want us to connect those two people?  I think Littlefinger's tale about Jon Arryn's nieces is the closest we'll get to GRRM spelling out for us that Timett is this girl's son (or protege at the very least).

[Clegane'sPup]

3 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

But they haven't served their purpose.  Tyrion still owes them a debt and "a Lannister always pays his debts."  Tyrion promised them the Vale.  So he's got to at least *try* to pay off his debt to them.

They may have gone back, but they aren't going back to "do what they do" - they're going back armed with steel, information and an education in Westerosi society. 

As for the what the difference between descending from First Men and descending from Andals - read your Vale chapters again.  Andals pushed most of the FM out of the Vale and into the mountains.  If the clansmen were Andals, they wouldn't be IN the mountains.

 

ummm, I don't know Jak, did Tywin promise the Vale?

 

[Jak Scaletongue]

14 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

ummm, I don't know Jak, did Tywin promise the Vale?

 

What does Tywin have to do with it?  Tywin's dead.  TYRION promised them the Vale if they let him go and got him to his father.  They let him go and got him to his father, therefore TYRION owes them the Vale.

24 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

But they haven't served their purpose.  Tyrion still owes them a debt and "a Lannister always pays his debts."  Tyrion promised them the Vale.  So he's got to at least *try* to pay off his debt to them.

They may have gone back, but they aren't going back to "do what they do" - they're going back armed with steel, information and an education in Westerosi society. 

As for the what the difference between descending from First Men and descending from Andals - read your Vale chapters again.  Andals pushed most of the FM out of the Vale and into the mountains.  If the clansmen were Andals, they wouldn't be IN the mountains.

 

[Clegane'sPup]

3 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

What does Tywin have to do with it?  Tywin's dead.  TYRION promised them the Vale if they let him go and got him to his father.  They let him go and got him to his father, therefore TYRION owes them the Vale.

 

<chuckle> my mistake. I need to get my glasses checked.

[Jak Scaletongue]

4 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

<chuckle> my mistake. I need to get my glasses checked.

Fair enough!  I know that feeling - I'm damn near blind without my goggles.

[Clegane'sPup]

6 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

Fair enough!  I know that feeling - I'm damn near blind without my goggles.

To make up for my donkey behind (that's double ass) mistake

In Game Tyrion says, “First, though, I have some promises of my own to keep," he said as he sliced off a wedge. "I shall require three thousand helms and as many hauberks, plus swords, pikes, steel spearheads, maces, battle-axes, gauntlets, gorgets, greaves, breastplates, wagons to carry all this—"

I agree that Tyrion wants the Vale to be a smoking wasteland. Tywin entices the clans by saying they will get what Tyrion promised and more.  There is a battle at the Green Fork after which Tywin sends Tyrion off  to KL with what is left of Tyrion’s Vale clans. Did Tyrion have 3000 clansmen with him when he left the Vale and arrived at KL?

After the Battle of the Blackwater in Swords I am told, "The Stone Crows are still in the kingswood. Shagga seems to have taken a fancy to the place. Timett led the Burned Men home, with all the plunder they took from Stannis's camp after the fighting. Chella turned up with a dozen Black Ears at the River Gate one morning, but your father's red cloaks chased them off while the Kingslanders threw dung and cheered."

I am of the opinion the Vale mountain clans are as useless as nipples on breastplate. There is already to much stuff happening in the Vale with Sansa, LF and the Vale lords. If Martin expands the Vale storytelling to include the Vale mountain clans taking over <shakes head>. No, just no, I can not see the Vale mountain clans overtaking the Vale lords, avalanche or no.

[Jak Scaletongue]

11 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

To make up for my donkey behind (that's double ass) mistake

In Game Tyrion says, “First, though, I have some promises of my own to keep," he said as he sliced off a wedge. "I shall require three thousand helms and as many hauberks, plus swords, pikes, steel spearheads, maces, battle-axes, gauntlets, gorgets, greaves, breastplates, wagons to carry all this—"

I agree that Tyrion wants the Vale to be a smoking wasteland. Tywin entices the clans by saying they will get what Tyrion promised and more.  There is a battle at the Green Fork after which Tywin sends Tyrion off  to KL with what is left of Tyrion’s Vale clans. Did Tyrion have 3000 clansmen with him when he left the Vale and arrived at KL?

After the Battle of the Blackwater in Swords I am told, "The Stone Crows are still in the kingswood. Shagga seems to have taken a fancy to the place. Timett led the Burned Men home, with all the plunder they took from Stannis's camp after the fighting. Chella turned up with a dozen Black Ears at the River Gate one morning, but your father's red cloaks chased them off while the Kingslanders threw dung and cheered."

I am of the opinion the Vale mountain clans are as useless as nipples on breastplate. There is already to much stuff happening in the Vale with Sansa, LF and the Vale lords. If Martin expands the Vale storytelling to include the Vale mountain clans taking over <shakes head>. No, just no, I can not see the Vale mountain clans overtaking the Vale lords, avalanche or no.

And I just don't agree.  I think, rather than the story expanding to include them, the clansmen are going to (literally) fight their way into the story.  Does that make sense?  I think anything we see the clansmen doing from here on will be through Sansa's chapters.  And I think the clansmen will be exactly what George uses to pare off some excess storylines in the Vale.  The clansmen have been a big part of the story, on the periphery of the story yes, but still a big part.  The clansmen were how Ned got from the Eyrie to the Bite at the beginning of Robellion, the clansmen made multiple appearances in GOT and were a large part of Tyrion's chapters in ACOK.  They've been mentioned in every single book (maybe not ADWD, but that's to be expected).  They've made appearances in at least three of five books (sorry, I'm at work and typing this in between invoices now, so I can't look this stuff up right now).  George is keeping them in the background for a reason - and given Baelish's tale about Jon Arryn's nieces, that's where my mind goes.  But I can't simply dismiss them completely, GRRM draws our attention to them too many times for me to pass them off as finished with.

[Clegane'sPup]

5 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

And I just don't agree.  I think, rather than the story expanding to include them, the clansmen are going to (literally) fight their way into the story.  Does that make sense?  I think anything we see the clansmen doing from here on will be through Sansa's chapters.  And I think the clansmen will be exactly what George uses to pare off some excess storylines in the Vale.  The clansmen have been a big part of the story, on the periphery of the story yes, but still a big part.  The clansmen were how Ned got from the Eyrie to the Bite at the beginning of Robellion, the clansmen made multiple appearances in GOT and were a large part of Tyrion's chapters in ACOK.  They've been mentioned in every single book (maybe not ADWD, but that's to be expected).  They've made appearances in at least three of five books (sorry, I'm at work and typing this in between invoices now, so I can't look this stuff up right now).  George is keeping them in the background for a reason - and given Baelish's tale about Jon Arryn's nieces, that's where my mind goes.  But I can't simply dismiss them completely, GRRM draws our attention to them too many times for me to pass them off as finished with.

You may be very well correct. I just saw another mistake I made. The battle at Green Fork happen in the Riverlands not the Vale.

[Light a wight tonight]

On 2/24/2016 at 11:46 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

To get other peoples oppinions... I'm a little embarassed that I have to explain this to you.

Apparently to get other people's opinions so that you could tell them that they're wrong. And to repeat (how many times?) that the mountain types are murdering rapists. 

In my opinion the clans shouldn't be given (or seize) control of the Vale because they're incapable of actually ruling. Their culture is one of constant feuding with their neighbors. That's no way to run a kingdom.

[John Doe]

4 hours ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

The mountain clans ARE NOT despised for understandable reasons - they are despised because everyone sees them as no better than animals, which means that NO MATTER WHAT they do, for good or ill, the Vale Lords will continue to despise them.  Very similar (though certainly not *exactly* the same) as Victorian era explorers in Africa.  "Black people couldn't ever have built this huge sprawling complex in Great Zimbabwe - they must have had help from white folk, or Arabs.  Maybe it was a trading post for the Arab traders. Yeah, that makes far more sense than Africans building monuments and cities themselves."  Seriously, that happened.  Google Greater Zimbabwe or here's a link to wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Zimbabwe#History_of_research_and_origins_of_the_ruins

Black people are *still* despised in a number of places, for nothing more than being black.  The mountain clans are despised simply for being the mountain clans.  The Vale has ignored the problem for 6000 years.  The Starks didn't ignore the problem and now their clansmen are fiercely loyal, treated with respect and treat others with respect, they've conformed to Westerosi norms for the most part and are valuable vassals and allies.  But the Vale Lords ignored their clansmen, treated them like dirt, never offered the clans a place in society, pushed them out of society completely and proceeded to treat them like animals and not worth the shit on their shoes.  I'd hold a grudge against them too.

 

1. The Mountain clans are despised for cultural reasons, not for the color of their skin or any other physical trait. I don't think a comparison makes much sense. 

2. There is a hudge difference, the Starks are First Men and just as native to the land as the Mountain Clans. The Valelords are from overseas and the Mountain Clans have been their bitter enemies for centuries. 

[Jak Scaletongue]

15 hours ago, John Doe said:

1. The Mountain clans are despised for cultural reasons, not for the color of their skin or any other physical trait. I don't think a comparison makes much sense. 

2. There is a hudge difference, the Starks are First Men and just as native to the land as the Mountain Clans. The Valelords are from overseas and the Mountain Clans have been their bitter enemies for centuries. 

1. So Africans are *only* despised for the colour of their skin? Absolutely not.  They are despised for the colour of their skin, their "backwards" cultures, their "lack" or intelligence because they see the world differently than Europeans.  Would you feel better if I used Aborigines as an example instead?  They're despised for both the colour of their skin AND their culture, which is seen as "lazy" by many Europeans.  Or how about Native Americans?  They're skin colour isn't drastically different, but they're still despised for not being white and not acting white.  And yes, Africans absolutely are despised for cultural reasons.  They are despised because white culture has always seen them as "lesser" and the colour of their skin did not become part of the issue until later.  Originally, Africans started being used as slaves because a Pope decided it was no longer appropriate to use Christians as slaves, so the slave traders went to Africa and started enslaving them because they weren't Christian (NOT because they were black).  Black Christians weren't enslaved originally, because enslaving Christians was bad regardless of the colour of their skin.  It wasn't until the "New World" opened up and they started making big money on the Atlantic Slave Trade that the rhetoric turned from not enslaving Christians (regardless of colour) to focusing exclusively on colour and how being black made one "evil" (cause black's an "evil" colour so these people must be "evil" - fuck I hate the church).  And this didn't really kick off until the big Plantations needed so many slaves.  In Europe, there was no big Plantations and no need for the scale of slaves that the "New World" needed, especially in North America[*cough* USA *cough*] (cause for some unknown reason the natives of these places had no desire to be slaves in their own land, and that's if they survived all the diseases and bio-weapon smallpox blankets us white folk gave away).

1.5 "cultural reasons" doesn't necessarily mean *their* culture.  It's just as likely to be *our* culture that despises them for "cultural reasons."  Such as white people believing that blacks are "lesser" - yes, it's based on the colour of *their* skin, but it's *our* culture that despises them.  So because of white culture, black people are despised.  It's not *their* culture that causes the hatred, it's *our* culture that did/does.

2. Not all the Vale Lords are Andals and came from across the sea.  Royce, Redfort, Hunter, Shett, Waynwood - First Men houses (and that's without my book, I'm sure there are a few more like Belmore, Waxley, Lipps, Coldwater.  And that's not including the houses on the Three Sister's, The Paps, or Witch Isle).  If the Starks can talk nice and get their mountain clans into the larger fold, why is it too hard to believe that the Arryn's should have got the Royce's and/or Redfort's to place nice and get their clansmen into the fold.  Right after the Andal's arrived wouldn't be the best time, but it hasn't occurred to anyone in the Vale in the last 6000 years that maybe, just maybe, if we played nice with these guys we can get them to play nice with us.  Maybe the clansmen would have insisted on being their own region, having their own lords - which probably wouldn't be what the Arryn's are looking for, but it's got to be better than having all these pissed off, grudge holding clansmen at your throats.  Get them invested in the larger kingdom and the Vale would have better access over the mountains and into the Riverlands without worrying that every noblewoman you try to send to the Riverlands is gonna get kidnapped and robbed.  But the Valemen just ignored the problem for 6000 years.  They can't fight them all, too many hidey-holes in the mountains, which is why playing nice is key.  But ignoring the problem won't make it go away, either.  Ned managed to convince them to help him instead of kill him - why the hell can't Yohn Royce give it a shot?  Oh that's right - Vale culture is so ingrained that even Yohn Royce can't see that the mountains clansmen are independent people instead of vile monsters.  Ned knew what the Valemen said about the clansmen, but he also knew the northern clansmen and knew that both were *just* men, no better or worse than other men, and no more or less likely to help him than anyone else.  But the Valemen just can't see that because their culture and society has blinded them to that fact.  The Valemen don't see people, they see half-human savages (much like early Europeans saw the native people anywhere - India, China, N&S America, Africa, Australia).  The Northmen see people.

[John Doe]

No, I wouldn't be glad if you used Aborigines as an example, just leave post darwinistic racism out of it as it differs quite a bit from the rivalry the Mountain Clans and Arryns have going on.

 

[Trogdor Targaryen]

On 2/24/2016 at 11:37 AM, Ser Tristan Flowers said:

The whole world has been stuck in time for millennia, not just the mountain clans. It´s quite hypocritical to act like they´re any worse than the dothraki or ironbon. Even "civilized" cultures rape, pillage and murder. Feudal society in and of itself is not exactly progressive either. The fact that the clans are allowed to live like this in the middle of westeros goes to show how poorly the realm has been dealing with them.

Nevertheless they should not, and will not, get the vale. This would be a step backwards in social development and I don´t see that happening.

Perhaps the negative progress is a part of that bittersweet ending we were promised.