Rickon stark and shaggydog

[delspark]

On 3/14/2016 at 7:28 AM, Scorpion92 said:

Rickon's story reason is to create a link between Davos and Jon Snow. I think Onion Knight will be Jon's right hand man after Stannis' demise, just like the show is implying. Also, Rickon is the rallying point for the northerners to unite under Stannis with "The North Remembers" pretext and defeat Boltons. Once Boltons are deposed and Rickon is installed as Stannis' Warden of the North and Lord of Winterfell with Manderly as Lord Regent, Stannis will get his army and fleet to go and take Iron Throne second time.

Only this time, on his way to Dragonstone with Manderly fleet, he will encounter Dany and her invading forces, and the lie of "a blue eyed king with burning sword who cast no shadow" as Azor Ahai will be slain (which is foreshadowed by Stannis' banner, a burning heart with stag in the middle). Northern army under Stannis will probably bend the knee after she shows all her dragon power.

All in all, I think Rickon is the stop-gap Lord of Winterfell until Jon gets resurrected, unites the wildlings at the Wall and the Gift under his banner and marches south to take regency over Rickon into his own hands away from Lord Manderly in order to become Lord Regent of the North and order northerners to go to the Wall and man the nineteen castles for the upcoming winter. Manderly and other northern lords will consider Jon a deserter and oath breaker, who listens to a witch of foreign religion and leads an army of barbaric wildlings, so he will not be exactly popular.

There will be a battle between Jon and Manderly for regency over Rickon, but since this is George Martin, Jon's victory will be bittersweet, as I expect Rickon will be caught between two fires and become a victim. I expect Jon's character to go a little grey next two books, because he will spend a lot of time inside Ghost during his "death" and turn a little wolfish, also the magic healing his body might affect him too.

Personality wise he will become more like Kings of Winter of old: harsh and ruthless. All he will care about is to honor his vow of "guarding the realms of men". Even though he will stop being a member of Night's Watch, as his watch will be ended (Melisandre will glamor one of the corpses in the ice cells to look like Jon, just like Rattleshirt and Mance situation), he will continue to fulfill his duties and honor the vows he gave to weirwood tree, but in his own way. All that will matter to Jon would be "protecting the realms" at all costs. If it means becoming Lord of Winterfell and ordering the North to go to the Wall, so be it.

So I think after Rickon's death, Jon will become the new Lord of Winterfell. His rule will be solidified once Robb's will comes out, so he will officially become King in the North, Jon Stark. He will also further integrate Free Folk into the country by giving out lands and titles and solidifying their place by arranging more marriages between northerners and wildlings like with Sigorn and Alys Karstark. I think after House Manderly falls, he will make Davos Lord of White Harbor.

But it will all be too late, as I think the Wall and Night's Watch will fall, and Others invade the North. Jon will gather all his levies to battle White Walkers at Winterfell (even the name of the castle foreshadows the place where Jon will defeat the ice creatures). Bran who will return south with Meera and Hodor will become very powerful and be a big part of helping Jon to defeat Others. He will skinchange and control the wight army, taking the main advantage away from the White Walkers, which will allow Jon to defeat and subdue White Walkers and make a new pact with them and be crowned new King of Winter.

Davos has staunch loyalty towards Stannis. If Stannis is dead he will go back to  his home and live a peaceful life with his remaining kids. How will he become Jon's right hand?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 13/3/2016 at 1:01 AM, daccu65 said:

Item #1.  I agree, it depends upon what was stated in Robb's will.  However, that is also why I pointed out that if Bran and/or Rickon survived and are recognized (esp. by the other northern lords) the will could be invalidated.  If the will stated that he recognized Jon because his legitimate brothers were dead, most of the northern lords would probably consider it invalid.  On the other hand, with a will that recognizes Jon, no statement that Rob named Jon his heir due to the deaths of Bran and Rickon, and a known Rickon back in the north, there is a conflict between the will and the laws of ascension.  Wars have started over less than that.

~If Robb clearly had said that Bran and Rickon are out the fact that someone may recognize them means nothing they are out like Sansa

Item #2.  There doesn't have to be a civil war.  Like you said,  this isn't a time of peace and the north would want to unite behind a strong leader.  If that leader is Jon, he could very well be named the regent.  However, once the hostilities come to an end, Jon could face a real test of his character.  Does he step aside for Rickon?  What if he proves a very capable leader and numerous northern lords want him in Winterfell?  Is he doing the right thing by retaining power, or is he doing the right thing by giving way to Rickon?

~Only Jon's test wouldn't be for him to step aside, because that is how Jon is. The test for him would be to swallow this stupid honour nonsense and accept the burden of being the King because that is the burden of the savior. Jon's character is to be someone who follows the rules but it isn't in his character to become the leader and the King.

 

 

[daccu65]

36 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

~If Robb clearly had said that Bran and Rickon are out the fact that someone may recognize them means nothing they are out like Sansa

Depends on the wording in the will, which we have not seen.  If the will said something to the effect of "due to the untimely deaths of my brothers, Brandon and Rickon, I name my father's son, Jon Snow, as my heir and bestow the Stark name upon him".  What I'm trying to say is if the will states why Robb named Jon the heir, and that  condition has been proven to be false, the will could be contested. 

 

43 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Only Jon's test wouldn't be for him to step aside, because that is how Jon is. The test for him would be to swallow this stupid honour nonsense and accept the burden of being the King because that is the burden of the savior. Jon's character is to be someone who follows the rules but it isn't in his character to become the leader and the King.

But what if Rickon returns and turns out to be a sadistic, immoral piece of $$$$ like Joffrey; and Jon proves to be a capable "interim" king?  At this point, if it is clearly for the good of the realm that Jon displace Rickon, would Jon be able to do it?

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, daccu65 said:

Depends on the wording in the will, which we have not seen.  If the will said something to the effect of "due to the untimely deaths of my brothers, Brandon and Rickon, I name my father's son, Jon Snow, as my heir and bestow the Stark name upon him".  What I'm trying to say is if the will states why Robb named Jon the heir, and that  condition has been proven to be false, the will could be contested. 

Only this way he doesn't disinherit them.  My guess it will be more like "I disinherit my siblings Bran, Rickon, Sansa and Arya and mane Jon Snow my heir." That way no matter how many imposters will come forward to prove that Bran, Rickon and Arya are "alive" they will still have no right to the Throne. By explaining why he did that he pretty much opens the door and invite the imporstors in. But I agre it will be all about the wording.

5 minutes ago, daccu65 said:

But what if Rickon returns and turns out to be a sadistic, immoral piece of $$$$ like Joffrey; and Jon proves to be a capable "interim" king?  At this point, if it is clearly for the good of the realm that Jon displace Rickon, would Jon be able to do it?

And that is why I am saying that for Jon to take the Throne will be against his character. For him to take the place of second in commant will not be a test but for him to take the Crown it will be.

[Scorpion92]

2 hours ago, delspark said:

Davos has staunch loyalty towards Stannis. If Stannis is dead he will go back to  his home and live a peaceful life with his remaining kids. How will he become Jon's right hand?

Because his home is already invaded by Golden Company and it is unknown what happened to his family there. If anything, since Stannis will be dead and Stormlands will be in the middle of the war between Aegon and Dany, Davos' family might escape north to find the Onion Knight, if they survive at all.

And someone posted a great idea around here regarding White Harbor and Davos. Raidings and invasions on the North from east side stopped once Starks gave Wolf's Den to fleeing southerners, who built the richest and biggest city of the region with reliable navy to guard the entrance to White Knife.

I think once Jon becomes Lord of Winterfell, House Manderly will go extinct at that point (as described above when they will fight Jon for Rickon's control, ambitious families usually get cast down in Martin's world), and Davos Seaworth will be awarded lordship and incomes of White Harbor and White Castle for his services. Davos knows things or two about sailing, so he is the perfect candidate to entrust the North's defense at sea.

That is my crackpot theory.

[delspark]

14 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:

 

I think once Jon becomes Lord of Winterfell, House Manderly will go extinct at that point (as described above when they will fight Jon for Rickon's control, ambitious families usually get cast down in Martin's world), and Davos Seaworth will be awarded lordship and incomes of White Harbor and White Castle for his services. Davos knows things or two about sailing, so he is the perfect candidate to entrust the North's defense at sea.

That is my crackpot theory.

Manderly said he wants to resurrect Starks sonce the Starks protected them in the past. Thats why he wants Davos to find Rickon. Now why would Jon and Manderly fight?

[Scorpion92]

5 minutes ago, delspark said:

Manderly said he wants to resurrect Starks sonce the Starks protected them in the past. Thats why he wants Davos to find Rickon. Now why would Jon and Manderly fight?

For regency over Rickon. Jon needs to become Rickon's regent in order to have authority to send northerners to man nineteen castles along the Wall.

Manderly will never give up his control over the North to a man who left the Wall and abandoned his Night's Watch in addition to listening to Red God priest and leading wildlings as his army, which will make Jon very unpopular in the eyes of northern lords.

Jon will have to come south and take Winterfell away from northern lords.

[delspark]

7 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:

For regency over Rickon. Jon needs to become Rickon's regent in order to have authority to send northerners to man nineteen castles along the Wall.

Manderly will never give up his control over the North to a man who left the Wall and abandoned his Night's Watch in addition to listening to Red God priest and leading wildlings as his army, which will make Jon very unpopular in the eyes of northern lords.

Jon will have to come south and take Winterfell away from northern lords.

Manderly knows not just to eat but to use his brain also. Examples are his fake alliance with Lannisters and Boltons by faking Davos death, secretly conspiring to get Rickon. If Jon explains the critical situation I know he will be willing to give his own men.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

14 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:

For regency over Rickon. Jon needs to become Rickon's regent in order to have authority to send northerners to man nineteen castles along the Wall.

Manderly will never give up his control over the North to a man who left the Wall and abandoned his Night's Watch in addition to listening to Red God priest and leading wildlings as his army, which will make Jon very unpopular in the eyes of northern lords.

Jon will have to come south and take Winterfell away from northern lords.

Manderly doesn't care about the Night's Watch, he is looking to restore the Starks due to a family debt.

If Jon is a Stark, that is as far as he is going to care.

[Scorpion92]

2 hours ago, delspark said:

Manderly knows not just to eat but to use his brain also. Examples are his fake alliance with Lannisters and Boltons by faking Davos death, secretly conspiring to get Rickon. If Jon explains the critical situation I know he will be willing to give his own men.

Manderly is loyal to Starks, true, but he is also an ambitious lord who wants to further his family's position, which is the reason why he offered to mint Robb's own money as well as build a fleet for Young Wolf. These two facts mean that Lord Manderly would have been Robb Stark's Master of Coin AS WELL AS Master of Ships. 

That is a lot of political power for Lord Manderly in independent kingdom of the North. Now that Robb is dead and Boltons are appointed as Wardens of the North, House Manderly is the only true rival for flayed men in terms of political and military strength. Manderly himself tells Davos that in order to beat Roose's claim to the North through "Arya", he needs Ned's son and his direwolf to sway the momentum in his favor.

Do you think that once Boltons are defeated by Stannis and the North is secure in Rickon's name Lord Manderly will give up the regency over Rickon (which means the North is basically under Lord Manderly's rule untill Rickon is grown up, and I bet he will offer betrothal between Rickon and his granddaughter to further his influence over Stark boy)?

Yeah, in my opinion, Lord Manderly will not give away Rickon to Ned Stark's bastard, who last time was reported to be Lord Commander of the Night's Watch but now is leading an army of wildlings down south, which basically means he is an oathbreaker and dishonorable and not worthy of Ned Stark.

3 hours ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Manderly doesn't care about the Night's Watch, he is looking to restore the Starks due to a family debt.

If Jon is a Stark, that is as far as he is going to care.

Exactly, Lord Manderly does not care about Night's Watch and he will not trust an oathbreaking bastard son of Ned Stark, who was last time Lord Commander of Night's Watch but now clearly involves himself in the politics of the North.

He already has Rickon as his Lord of Winterfell who has more claim and legitimacy as Ned Stark's trueborn son, he does not need Jon with his army of hated wildlings to tell him what to do. I honestly do not foresee Manderly giving up his political power of regency to Jon just because he is Ned Stark's blood. He already "has his Stark lord" who is a kid and easy to manipulate.

[Richard Writhen]

Rickon and Shaggydog are going to be eating people together in TWOW ...

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 3/17/2016 at 8:59 AM, delspark said:

Great Northern Conspiracy greatly depends on Stannis. If only he wins can they succeed in their plans. In ADWD, Jon gets  letter stating Stannis is dead. That means the Boltons are still alive and can easily kill Rickon if his whereabouts are known.

I thought the point of the GNC was for Stannis and Bolton to exhaust eachother's forces so the conspirators could swoop in and anno it Jon Stark King in the North? 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 3/17/2016 at 9:03 AM, delspark said:

Stannis was dead at the end of ADWD. Jon got letter of his death from Boltons. Is that another ruse?

Have you read Theon I, Winds?

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 3/17/2016 at 9:12 AM, delspark said:

Davos has staunch loyalty towards Stannis. If Stannis is dead he will go back to  his home and live a peaceful life with his remaining kids. How will he become Jon's right hand?

I expect Davos's lands and keep will be doled out to men of the Golden Company. His family will be taken as hostages. 

[delspark]

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

 

Hidden Content

 

Spoiler

  "Bolton has blundered," the king declared.  "All he had to do was sit inside his castle whilst we starved.  Instead he has sent some portion of his strength forth to give us battle.  His knights will be horsed, ours must fight afoot.  His men will be well nourished, ours go into battle with empty bellies.  It makes no matter.  Ser Stupid, Lord Too-Fat, the Bastard, let them come.  We hold the ground, and that I mean to turn to our advantage."

     "The ground?" said Theon.  "What ground?  Here?  This misbegotten tower?  This wretched little village?  You have no high ground here, no walls to hide beyond, no natural defenses."

     "Yet."  

     "Yet," both ravens screamed in unison.  Then one quorked, and the other muttered, "Tree, tree, tree."

     The door opened.  

In Theon chapter of TWOW, the battle was yet to take place. Stannis says of holding ground which can be an advantage.

[delspark]

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I expect Davos's lands and keep will be doled out to men of the Golden Company. His family will be taken as hostages. 

If they are taken as hostage will he not try to  save them instead of joining some other lord and hoping that lord will save his family?

[Lost Melnibonean]

9 minutes ago, delspark said:

  Reveal hidden contents

  "Bolton has blundered," the king declared.  "All he had to do was sit inside his castle whilst we starved.  Instead he has sent some portion of his strength forth to give us battle.  His knights will be horsed, ours must fight afoot.  His men will be well nourished, ours go into battle with empty bellies.  It makes no matter.  Ser Stupid, Lord Too-Fat, the Bastard, let them come.  We hold the ground, and that I mean to turn to our advantage."

     "The ground?" said Theon.  "What ground?  Here?  This misbegotten tower?  This wretched little village?  You have no high ground here, no walls to hide beyond, no natural defenses."

     "Yet."  

     "Yet," both ravens screamed in unison.  Then one quorked, and the other muttered, "Tree, tree, tree."

     The door opened.  

In Theon chapter of TWOW, the battle was yet to take place. Stannis says of holding ground which can be an advantage.

You should use spoiler tags when discussing content from Winds. [spolier]

"It may be that we shall lose this battle," the king said grimly.  "In Braavos you may hear that I am dead. It may even be true.  You shall find my sellswords nonetheless."

     The knight hesitated.  "Your Grace, if you are dead — "

     " — you will avenge my death, and seat my daughter on the Iron Throne.  Or die in the attempt."[/quote]Theon I, Winds

Stannis was planning the ruse.

[Lost Melnibonean]

16 minutes ago, delspark said:

If they are taken as hostage will he not try to  save them instead of joining some other lord and hoping that lord will save his family?

By himself? Did Robett? 

[delspark]

 

14 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

You should use spoiler tags when discussing content from Winds. [spolier]

 

Spoiler

   "In Braavos you may hear that I am dead. It may even be true.  You shall find my sellswords nonetheless."

Yeah! there is a possibility, the battle may have ended or not.