Lost Melnibonean

Second of Three Fires

52 posts in this topic

9 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

But, but, but Dany doesn't seem to like sweet stuff, if I recall? I may not because it's late and I barely slept last night.

Give me a minute to look some stuff up....

And at this moment in time, Jon is a damned flowerbed with all of his freshly cut blooming chest flowers. (please not jon)

Daario. Yeah, I'd say she likes sour stuff. 

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9 hours ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

@Lost Melnibonean

 

i went down this way a couple of times.

HotU is so freakin frustrating and at the same time awesome chapter.

I too believe the treasons, mounts and fires are related to the nine visions, of daughter, slayer bride.. but i can´t figure it out.

Nothing indicates that these visions should be taken in order though, i mean, the mounts fires and treasons could be mixed in the brides, daughters and slayer...

 

Daughter of death:

Viserys: treason for a gold (crown)?

Rhaego: could be the treason for blood (MMD), or the fire for life (if indeed she sacrificed him for dragons as many speculate)

Rhaegar: treason for love? like Robert betrayed her family for the love of lyanna..

 

Slayer of lies

Stannis: fire for death?

(f)Aegon: treason for love? Illyrio being aegons father..  treason for blood for the same reasons?

Stone Beast: beats me.

 

Bride of fire

Silver: Mount to love.. or Fire for life, representing Drogos sacrifice and pyre.

Corpse: Victarion fire for death? (like i speculated before).. Jon Connigton also Fire for death seing as we will have a new DOD..

Jon: beats me.

 

Yeap. It's a pickle. 

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4 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

Bingo.

You're all (perfectly reasonably - it's GRRM's trap) assuming the lover refers to Dany loving someone, or someone loving Dany. Suppose the love refers to Missendai loving Grey Worm, or GW loving Missendai? Their love for each other causes one of them (I think Missy) to betray Dany.

That's one reason I believe Aegon will betray Daenerys for love of Arianne. 

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So what do you think? Did the show spoil the second fire? If so, does that tell us anything about the rest of the prophecies and symbolism from the Undying Ones? 

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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11 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

Bingo.

You're all (perfectly reasonably - it's GRRM's trap) assuming the lover refers to Dany loving someone, or someone loving Dany. Suppose the love refers to Missendai loving Grey Worm, or GW loving Missendai? Their love for each other causes one of them (I think Missy) to betray Dany.

Speaking just for the show-side here, I did notice that Missy and Grey Worm gave each other very curious glances in E4... and not in the "I wish you had your pillar and stones," sort of way.

I see what you mean about a love those two have between each other could lead them to conspiring with each other and bringing Dany down or undoing Meereen somehow.

But why? Do you have any further thoughts on this? At this point, those two would have to be secretly working with the nobles of the houses we saw with Tyrion in E4. NOT to go all Talisa/Honeypot theory here, but Missy did explain that the nobles will only work with someone if they are spoken to in a language only they, and Missy, understand. Oh gawd... what's happening to me???

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7 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

So what do you think? Did the show spoil the second fire? If so, does that tell us anything about the rest of the prophecies and symbolism from the Undying Ones? 

Spoil for the books? No. I truly believe the show went off books back in season 3, and that gap has only drastically widened with each episode and that D&D and GRRM are correct when they say these are two separate beings now.

Book Dany, as we have her now, is not in anyway near where her predicament is now. She has Drogon with her and their bond is strong as she doesn't need her whip anymore and he comes when called. Drogon scared off the Dothraki that was scouting for her. If book Dany goes to Vaes Dothrak, then it will be way more in her control and with Drogon. Who is going to taunt Dany with a gang rape (including horses) when she has Drogon with her?

Daenerys' second fire will be something else in the books, so I am not worried about tv spoilers. I really do wish the show had more of the prophecies and symbolism (and even Ghost of HH), but alas, it does not.

From Dance:

"He did not see her, though. The grass concealed her, and he was looking elsewhere. Dany followed his eyes, and there the shadow flew, with wings spread wide. The dragon was a mile off, and yet the scout stood frozen until his stallion began to whicker in fear. Then he woke as if from a dream, wheeled his mount about, and raced off through the tall grass at a gallop.
 
Dany watched him go. When the sound of his hooves had faded away to silence, she began to shout. She called until her voice was hoarse … and Drogon came, snorting plumes of smoke. The grass bowed down before him. Dany leapt onto his back. She stank of blood and sweat and fear, but none of that mattered. "To go forward I must go back," she said. Her bare legs tightened around the dragon's neck. She kicked him, and Drogon threw himself into the sky. Her whip was gone, so she used her hands and feet and turned him north by east, the way the scout had gone. Drogon went willingly enough; perhaps he smelled the rider's fear.
 
In a dozen heartbeats they were past the Dothraki, as he galloped far below."

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1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Spoil for the books? No. I truly believe the show went off books back in season 3, and that gap has only drastically widened with each episode and that D&D and GRRM are correct when they say these are two separate beings now.

Book Dany, as we have her now, is not in anyway near where her predicament is now. She has Drogon with her and their bond is strong as she doesn't need her whip anymore and he comes when called. Drogon scared off the Dothraki that was scouting for her. If book Dany goes to Vaes Dothrak, then it will be way more in her control and with Drogon. Who is going to taunt Dany with a gang rape (including horses) when she has Drogon with her?

Daenerys' second fire will be something else in the books, so I am not worried about tv spoilers. I really do wish the show had more of the prophecies and symbolism (and even Ghost of HH), but alas, it does not.

From Dance:

"He did not see her, though. The grass concealed her, and he was looking elsewhere. Dany followed his eyes, and there the shadow flew, with wings spread wide. The dragon was a mile off, and yet the scout stood frozen until his stallion began to whicker in fear. Then he woke as if from a dream, wheeled his mount about, and raced off through the tall grass at a gallop.
 
Dany watched him go. When the sound of his hooves had faded away to silence, she began to shout. She called until her voice was hoarse … and Drogon came, snorting plumes of smoke. The grass bowed down before him. Dany leapt onto his back. She stank of blood and sweat and fear, but none of that mattered. "To go forward I must go back," she said. Her bare legs tightened around the dragon's neck. She kicked him, and Drogon threw himself into the sky. Her whip was gone, so she used her hands and feet and turned him north by east, the way the scout had gone. Drogon went willingly enough; perhaps he smelled the rider's fear.
 
In a dozen heartbeats they were past the Dothraki, as he galloped far below."

Perhaps Drogon will play a similar role, lighting a fire that burns some Dothraki khals and awes the rest into submission? 

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28 minutes ago, Uncle Benjen's said:

Maybe the last fire could be her funeral pyre?

But she wouldn't be lighting that one herself. Unless maybe she lights it metaphorically by sacrificing her life for someone or something she loves? 

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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7 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Perhaps Drogon will play a similar role, lighting a fire that burns some Dothraki khals and awes the rest into submission? 

I agree, quite possible. But I haven't figured out just exactly how that would go.

What we saw on tv made me realize that it seemed weird to have all the Dothraki bow to Dany even though she burned their main yurt and several of the Khals (leaving several widows) and Dany's use of bloodmagic which is something they abhor and could see Dany as a "vile witch", therefore, the bowing by 10,000 seemed off to me.

Dany has to leave Essos at some time and she can't take every Dothraki with her, and many probably won't want to leave anyway... so what is the point of making them all bow for her to leave them in a few weeks (?). Are they setting Dany up to be a new goddess to be worshiped for all time to come? Is their culture going to turn on a dime and start accepting what they always thought of as witchcraft? For me, it started more questions than it answered... so what do you think?

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20 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

But she wouldn't be lighting that one herself. Unless maybe she lights it metaphorically by sacrificing her life for someone or something she loves? 

Yes I was thinking that but I couldn't explicitly think how the sacrifice would go - I mean she couldn't exactly kamikaze herself and Drogon into a hoard of White Walkers, right? But if so, some kind of heroic death and then her funeral fire being the last flame she lit. Or if her sacrifice defeats the Others and the ensuing winter, it could be a metaphor for spring come and the light - once for love.
R'hollor 'supposedly' grants visions through fires as the lord of light, and fights against the darkness. Fire has already been linked as an opposing force to the ensuing winter - so her sacrifice to stop the Others may be be the fire for love.

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2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Speaking just for the show-side here, I did notice that Missy and Grey Worm gave each other very curious glances in E4... and not in the "I wish you had your pillar and stones," sort of way.

I see what you mean about a love those two have between each other could lead them to conspiring with each other and bringing Dany down or undoing Meereen somehow.

But why? Do you have any further thoughts on this? At this point, those two would have to be secretly working with the nobles of the houses we saw with Tyrion in E4. NOT to go all Talisa/Honeypot theory here, but Missy did explain that the nobles will only work with someone if they are spoken to in a language only they, and Missy, understand. Oh gawd... what's happening to me???

I don't see them working for the nobles. They are passionately anti-slavery and are disgusted with Tyrion's compromise. I can see Dany returning and endorsing Tyrion's plan because her character has shifted; she cares far less about her erstwhile principles and is now focused on power and moving swiftly on to Westeros. Missy will feel betrayed and end up doing what the Harpy has been trying to do, albeit following her own agenda, not the nobles'. GW will be in a position where to do his duty and save Dany, he will have to kill Missy.

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22 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I agree, quite possible. But I haven't figured out just exactly how that would go.

What we saw on tv made me realize that it seemed weird to have all the Dothraki bow to Dany even though she burned their main yurt and several of the Khals (leaving several widows) and Dany's use of bloodmagic which is something they abhor and could see Dany as a "vile witch", therefore, the bowing by 10,000 seemed off to me.

Dany has to leave Essos at some time and she can't take every Dothraki with her, and many probably won't want to leave anyway... so what is the point of making them all bow for her to leave them in a few weeks (?). Are they setting Dany up to be a new goddess to be worshiped for all time to come? Is their culture going to turn on a dime and start accepting what they always thought of as witchcraft? For me, it started more questions than it answered... so what do you think?

She walked outta the fire unburnt, like a goddess (lookin' mighty fine I might add). 

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7 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

I don't see them working for the nobles. They are passionately anti-slavery and are disgusted with Tyrion's compromise. I can see Dany returning and endorsing Tyrion's plan because her character has shifted; she cares far less about her erstwhile principles and is now focused on power and moving swiftly on to Westeros. Missy will feel betrayed and end up doing what the Harpy has been trying to do, albeit following her own agenda, not the nobles'. GW will be in a position where to do his duty and save Dany, he will have to kill Missy.

I gotcha. Good answers. I will think on it a bit because I don't know if Grey Worm will kill Missy... they kinda shared the same looks between each other after, as you said, Tyrion made some poor decisions about the slaves.

By the way... were those sex slaves Tyrion rewarded the nobles with? If so, then slavery was declared "dead" then and there, yet sex slaves were just ushered in.

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3 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

She walked outta the fire unburnt, like a goddess (lookin' mighty fine I might add). 

Jeesh! I get the top of Snow's ass crack and you get full, perky bewbage. That shit ain't right. It's ok, I'll take Tormund's lusty lip smacking chow down anytime :lmao:

This is were the change from book to show gets confusing. I can't see Dany bringing a hoard of Dothraki back to Meereen and I certainly don't see them crossing any sea for her... so they are just gonna worship the new Silver-Haired Queentm because she just proved herself to be a "witch". She must weigh the same as a duck?

And if you take what @House Cambodia mentioned above, with Dany endorsing Tyrion's 7 year plan, who will run the place if Missy and/or Grey Worm are off'd because they betrayed Dany?

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4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Jeesh! I get the top of Snow's ass crack and you get full, perky bewbage. That shit ain't right. It's ok, I'll take Tormund's lusty lip smacking chow down anytime :lmao:

This is were the change from book to show gets confusing. I can't see Dany bringing a hoard of Dothraki back to Meereen and I certainly don't see them crossing any sea for her... so they are just gonna worship the new Silver-Haired Queentm because she just proved herself to be a "witch". She must weigh the same as a duck?

And if you take what @House Cambodia mentioned above, with Dany endorsing Tyrion's 7 year plan, who will run the place if Missy and/or Grey Worm are off'd because they betrayed Dany?

I don't know  what will happen in the show. (Or really care  UT for the full nudity--why'd they have to kill off Ros?) But, I think the book Dothraki will help her conquer Volantis, and piss off the Three Daughters, and I think some will cross the Narrow Sea. 

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Right, hang on - I think I've got it ALL figured out!!! :blink:

 

I've been banging on in other threads about how readers and viewers aren't appreciating the way in which GRRM is working on character development - in key cases transformation. In particular, I think readers who moan that ADWD is boring are missing a massive trick.

Dany is changing - it was all there written on her face in those final scenes - don't look at the boobies; look at the mouth. It's all there. In S1E10 she walked out of the fire a scared and confused kid; this time she walked out regarding herself as a goddess/messiah on a mission. She is now officially badass - and not in a good way.

Prepare to see similar in Tyrion. St. Tyrion? Are you sure? His ideals were severely screwed in KL, culminating in that speech. He's going for one last hurrah in Meereen, but Melly will inadvertently cause his plans to backfire and he'll be, yet again, blamed for something that was not his fault, this time a slave-led bloody carnage. Dany will offer him a ticket to KL where he can wreak vengeance on Cercei and he won't hold back. In short, two of our most beloved characters are going to turn out the be the leading antagonists in the rest of the story.

So, Dany and Tyrion, both disgusted with the behaviour of the savage slaves/ex-slaves they sought to liberate will head off to Volantis to take command of a huge navy - crewed by slaves. The fleet will ferry the massive barbaric Dothraki horde to Westeros, in cahoots with the Ironborn fleet. Yes, the vicious raping pillaging Ironborn are with Dany to conquer and ravage Westeros.

Westeros, now fatally divided and weak with no king and a capital recently razed by a crazy ex-king's mother will not be able to resist. Not in the South, anyway (nb D&D appear to have cut Dorne out of the show now, so I don't know how or if that'll figure in this end-game).

The end game - the Song of Ice and Fire. As the Dothraki, Ironborn, bloodthirsty slaves and Dany's dragons burn, rape, pillage and murder their way north, they won't be resisted until Winterfell, where they encounter the pitiful remnants on Jon Snow's northern forces. And the WWs. Originally created by the Children to repel the genocidal Andals of Essos, they have reawoken to again save civilization from the eastern peril, this time  the mad megalomaniac dragon-queen and her evil hordes. Will the Final Battle be at Winterfell, the Wall or Trident? I cannot tell, but in the struggle of Ice vs Fire, Ice must prevail and Fire be vanquished. Then, mission completed, the WWs will retire so that Sansa, Bran and Arya (with Jon gone in a noble self-sacrifice in a bittersweet ending) can restore peace to the world.

And that's my theory, wot I have, until it's all destroyed in the next episode, when I'll come up with an entirely different one :P

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13 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Right, hang on - I think I've got it ALL figured out!!! :blink:

 

I've been banging on in other threads about how readers and viewers aren't appreciating the way in which GRRM is working on character development - in key cases transformation. In particular, I think readers who moan that ADWD is boring are missing a massive trick.

Dany is changing - it was all there written on her face in those final scenes - don't look at the boobies; look at the mouth. It's all there. In S1E10 she walked out of the fire a scared and confused kid; this time she walked out regarding herself as a goddess/messiah on a mission. She is now officially badass - and not in a good way.

Prepare to see similar in Tyrion. St. Tyrion? Are you sure? His ideals were severely screwed in KL, culminating in that speech. He's going for one last hurrah in Meereen, but Melly will inadvertently cause his plans to backfire and he'll be, yet again, blamed for something that was not his fault, this time a slave-led bloody carnage. Dany will offer him a ticket to KL where he can wreak vengeance on Cercei and he won't hold back. In short, two of our most beloved characters are going to turn out the be the leading antagonists in the rest of the story.

So, Dany and Tyrion, both disgusted with the behaviour of the savage slaves/ex-slaves they sought to liberate will head off to Volantis to take command of a huge navy - crewed by slaves. The fleet will ferry the massive barbaric Dothraki horde to Westeros, in cahoots with the Ironborn fleet. Yes, the vicious raping pillaging Ironborn are with Dany to conquer and ravage Westeros.

Westeros, now fatally divided and weak with no king and a capital recently razed by a crazy ex-king's mother will not be able to resist. Not in the South, anyway (nb D&D appear to have cut Dorne out of the show now, so I don't know how or if that'll figure in this end-game).

The end game - the Song of Ice and Fire. As the Dothraki, Ironborn, bloodthirsty slaves and Dany's dragons burn, rape, pillage and murder their way north, they won't be resisted until Winterfell, where they encounter the pitiful remnants on Jon Snow's northern forces. And the WWs. Originally created by the Children to repel the genocidal Andals of Essos, they have reawoken to again save civilization from the eastern peril, this time  the mad megalomaniac dragon-queen and her evil hordes. Will the Final Battle be at Winterfell, the Wall or Trident? I cannot tell, but in the struggle of Ice vs Fire, Ice must prevail and Fire be vanquished. Then, mission completed, the WWs will retire so that Sansa, Bran and Arya (with Jon gone in a noble self-sacrifice in a bittersweet ending) can restore peace to the world.

And that's my theory, wot I have, until it's all destroyed in the next episode, when I'll come up with an entirely different one :P

Yeah I can't wait until this season end or next season to see all your theory disproven because none will happen ..so let itbe disproved next episode itself ..

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Well I'm no Melissandra - I can accept a prediction gone awry when I see it ...

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7 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Jeesh! I get the top of Snow's ass crack and you get full, perky bewbage. That shit ain't right. It's ok, I'll take Tormund's lusty lip smacking chow down anytime :lmao:

This is were the change from book to show gets confusing. I can't see Dany bringing a hoard of Dothraki back to Meereen and I certainly don't see them crossing any sea for her... so they are just gonna worship the new Silver-Haired Queentm because she just proved herself to be a "witch". She must weigh the same as a duck?

And if you take what @House Cambodia mentioned above, with Dany endorsing Tyrion's 7 year plan, who will run the place if Missy and/or Grey Worm are off'd because they betrayed Dany?

Maybe you can't but there had been many who had seen and theorised for years about this ..

Take a look at GRRm's letter he clearly dany leads dothraki to westeros ..

In AGOt we have dosh khaleen looking scared at her and mistakes her son as TSWMTW . 

We have dany swearing vengeance against khal pono and his bloodriders..

We have HOTU where dosh khaleen bow to her ..

We have to go forward you must go backward. .

 

Even the show set it up this back in season 3 where jorah tells dothraki only follow strength and you need to wait until you become powerful

Why she came from the fire in the end of the first book and everyone bow down and considers her god for that ..why can't the same be happening now .

 

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