Stark family immunity

[Uncle Benjen's]

Hey guys,

So just a brief thought, if someone has already developed on this idea please direct me to that thread so I can read a more in-depth analysis.

Would it be implausible for the Stark's to be immune to becoming a fully fledged Wight? My thought comes from the theory of Coldhands being Benjen Stark. If this is so, maybe Benjen was actually resurrected as a Wight by the WW (to become Coldhands) but because of his Stark blood he retains memories and personalities. This could work with Jon Snow's resurrection also, although I don't think his brothers would take to kindly to him having glowing blue eyes. I feel it would fit in with some of the lore and mysteries around the Stark family line.

Let me know what you think.

[JonisHenryTudor]

I never bought the CH is Benjen thing. But there are several discussion where people have pointed out the CH is too old to be Benjen. 

I don't think they are immune to becoming wights because there does not seem to be anything to suggest that. I do, however, think there is a link between the Starks and everything north of the Wall, but I don't think that makes them immune to becoming a wight. 

[Bright Blue Eyes]

You should probably check the Heresy threads. Less about any immunity, more about being the warmblooded relation of the Others themselves.

[Raisin' Bran]

3 minutes ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

I never bought the CH is Benjen thing. But there are several discussion where people have pointed out the CH is too old to be Benjen. 

I don't think they are immune to becoming wights because there does not seem to be anything to suggest that. I do, however, think there is a link between the Starks and everything north of the Wall, but I don't think that makes them immune to becoming a wight. 

I second this.

For the children (who live for hundreds of years) to consider that Coldhands died long ago, there would need to be a significant period of time between his death and when he meets bran and co. Much longer than the 2+ years since Benjen disappeared.

[Dorian Martell]

41 minutes ago, Uncle Benjen's said:

Hey guys,

So just a brief thought, if someone has already developed on this idea please direct me to that thread so I can read a more in-depth analysis.

Would it be implausible for the Stark's to be immune to becoming a fully fledged Wight? My thought comes from the theory of Coldhands being Benjen Stark. If this is so, maybe Benjen was actually resurrected as a Wight by the WW (to become Coldhands) but because of his Stark blood he retains memories and personalities. This could work with Jon Snow's resurrection also, although I don't think his brothers would take to kindly to him having glowing blue eyes. I feel it would fit in with some of the lore and mysteries around the Stark family line.

Let me know what you think.

There is no reason to think the starks are somehow immune to wighting in the books. The show is different so maybe 

 

[YOVMO]

1 hour ago, Uncle Benjen's said:

Hey guys,

So just a brief thought, if someone has already developed on this idea please direct me to that thread so I can read a more in-depth analysis.

Would it be implausible for the Stark's to be immune to becoming a fully fledged Wight? My thought comes from the theory of Coldhands being Benjen Stark. If this is so, maybe Benjen was actually resurrected as a Wight by the WW (to become Coldhands) but because of his Stark blood he retains memories and personalities. This could work with Jon Snow's resurrection also, although I don't think his brothers would take to kindly to him having glowing blue eyes. I feel it would fit in with some of the lore and mysteries around the Stark family line.

Let me know what you think.

This doesn't seem likely for all the reasons already mentioned, but also that there really is nothing particularly special about being a stark. They are descended from the legendary Bran the Builder but loads of the great and even some lesser houses have a claim on being descended from age of heros bad asses. They are the blood of the first men, but so are many northern houses. The truth is, winterfell is a very strong and strategically located castle and the starks, once consolidating their power, were able to hold control of the north for a very long time and the longer it went on the easier it became. Like Pepperidge Farms, the north remembers -- but by the time King Jon Stark built the wolfs den no one even remembered a time when the Starks weren't king in the north.

 

There is nothing in their history that would suggest they have been immune from the walkers, there is nothing going on in asoiaf in the current day to assume this either (I don't recall any starks having displayed anything in the ballpark of immunity to wightdom). But what is most important and a key factor in all tin foil afaic is this:

Let's say it is true and the starks are totally immune from becoming full fledged wights and this is explaining coldhands because he is benjen (again, I don't believe this, but just for the sake of argument)....what does this give us? Does anything change? Are any questions really answered? Ok, we know benjen is CH so what? Even if this theory was 100% true it would have zero impact on the world and as such it seems far too inelegant to make sense in asoiaf 

[Cragen]

11 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

This doesn't seem likely for all the reasons already mentioned, but also that there really is nothing particularly special about being a stark. They are descended from the legendary Bran the Builder but loads of the great and even some lesser houses have a claim on being descended from age of heros bad asses. They are the blood of the first men, but so are many northern houses. The truth is, winterfell is a very strong and strategically located castle and the starks, once consolidating their power, were able to hold control of the north for a very long time and the longer it went on the easier it became. Like Pepperidge Farms, the north remembers -- but by the time King Jon Stark built the wolfs den no one even remembered a time when the Starks weren't king in the north.

 

There is nothing in their history that would suggest they have been immune from the walkers, there is nothing going on in asoiaf in the current day to assume this either (I don't recall any starks having displayed anything in the ballpark of immunity to wightdom). But what is most important and a key factor in all tin foil afaic is this:

Let's say it is true and the starks are totally immune from becoming full fledged wights and this is explaining coldhands because he is benjen (again, I don't believe this, but just for the sake of argument)....what does this give us? Does anything change? Are any questions really answered? Ok, we know benjen is CH so what? Even if this theory was 100% true it would have zero impact on the world and as such it seems far too inelegant to make sense in asoiaf 

I don't think that CH is Benjan, because CH is obviously more ancient. You are wrong about that there is nothing in history that suggests Starks to have some kind of immunity from becoming Wight. First in TWOIAF you have story about Barrow King who transform his enemies in corpse like creatures and he is defeated by Starks, second is story of Night's King who was almost certainly Stark. I don't know, if it's true, what impact of that could be. Remember, this is fantasy and what is point of main power of that time without magical powers.

[YOVMO]

1 minute ago, Cragen said:

I don't think that CH is Benjan, because CH is obviously more ancient. You are wrong about that there is nothing in history that suggests Starks to have some kind of immunity from becoming Wight. First in TWOIAF you have story about Barrow King who transform his enemies in corpse like creatures and he is defeated by Starks, second is story of Night's King who was almost certainly Stark. I don't know, if it's true, what impact of that could be. Remember, this is fantasy and what is point of main power of that time without magical powers.

I don't think CH is too for the same reason you give.

I don't think the story of the Barrow king shows an immunity to becoming a Wight for the starks any more than Sam defeating an other shows that Tarly's are. Further, we are going by an oral history of singers dating back what 5000 years? I wouldn't want to rest a claim of immunity on wights on a story that is almost surely apocryphal, millennia old and, even if true word for word doesn't necessarily show that there was an immunity to be turned into a wight in the first place.

Also, GRRM himself equates the tales of the night's king to bran the builder and lann the clever. There is no consensus that he was in fact a stark (I think he probably was) and even if he was I still see no compelling evidence there that shows Stark Blood passing an immunity to being turned into a wight.

All that said I still fail to see where Stark's having an immunity to being a wight would fit anywhere in the story, be particularly interesting or help make sense of the world as we know it. Where we are now there hasn't been walking dead in anywhere near living memory so how that particular magic works, its effects, things that deter it are all stuff that we are learning bit by bit. I just don't see why a Stark immunity would make sense here though. Is it because they are of the first blood? Well loads of folks are. In fact, pretty much all of the wildlings are. Is it because they have stark blood? So do the Karstarks. Hell, so do almost every house in the north and given the 8000 years of time between bran the builder and the current day I am pretty sure that Robb Stark and Arnolf Karstark prob had about the same amount of blood from the original  kings of winter

 

As for magical powers there is plenty of point of it without magical powers. In fact, I think that magical powers are no where near the most important thing of the dawn age...it is the legend that is important, the customs, the superstitions and mores and hold them together. Whether or not Brandon the Builder used magic to Raise the wall, built Winterfell AND Storms end is, 8000 years later, far less important than the fact that northern children are taught that and singers sing about it.

 

Also, nothing for like Pepperidge Farms the North Remembers? That is some quality shit there

[Raisin' Bran]

4 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

Also, nothing for like Pepperidge Farms the North Remembers?

I do not understand the reference to Pepperidge Farms. But I am not exactly "in the loop".

[YOVMO]

4 minutes ago, Raisin(g) Bran 2 Greenseer said:

I do not understand the reference to Pepperidge Farms. But I am not exactly "in the loop".

Pepperidge Farm cooks Slogan was "Pepperidge Farms Remembers"

 

Well, at least I thought it was funny.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

Benjen isn't Coldhands, GRRM said so in the leaked original outline material. He's more likely to be the 13th Lord Commander, who could have still been a Stark so the theory would still fit.

[Cragen]

7 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

I don't think CH is too for the same reason you give.

I don't think the story of the Barrow king shows an immunity to becoming a Wight for the starks any more than Sam defeating an other shows that Tarly's are. Further, we are going by an oral history of singers dating back what 5000 years? I wouldn't want to rest a claim of immunity on wights on a story that is almost surely apocryphal, millennia old and, even if true word for word doesn't necessarily show that there was an immunity to be turned into a wight in the first place.

Also, GRRM himself equates the tales of the night's king to bran the builder and lann the clever. There is no consensus that he was in fact a stark (I think he probably was) and even if he was I still see no compelling evidence there that shows Stark Blood passing an immunity to being turned into a wight.

All that said I still fail to see where Stark's having an immunity to being a wight would fit anywhere in the story, be particularly interesting or help make sense of the world as we know it. Where we are now there hasn't been walking dead in anywhere near living memory so how that particular magic works, its effects, things that deter it are all stuff that we are learning bit by bit. I just don't see why a Stark immunity would make sense here though. Is it because they are of the first blood? Well loads of folks are. In fact, pretty much all of the wildlings are. Is it because they have stark blood? So do the Karstarks. Hell, so do almost every house in the north and given the 8000 years of time between bran the builder and the current day I am pretty sure that Robb Stark and Arnolf Karstark prob had about the same amount of blood from the original  kings of winter

 

As for magical powers there is plenty of point of it without magical powers. In fact, I think that magical powers are no where near the most important thing of the dawn age...it is the legend that is important, the customs, the superstitions and mores and hold them together. Whether or not Brandon the Builder used magic to Raise the wall, built Winterfell AND Storms end is, 8000 years later, far less important than the fact that northern children are taught that and singers sing about it.

 

Also, nothing for like Pepperidge Farms the North Remembers? That is some quality shit there

I didn't claim that Starks are 100% immune to becoming Wight, I'm just saying that there is enough clues if GRRM wants to use it in future for some reason. Do you believe maesters version of dawn ages history, when we know that they do everything possible to convince people that magic isn't real and it was never real. Rogue Prince and The Princes and The Queen are obvious examples of maesters falsification of history. Night's King story is told from two different sources Ygrit and Old Nun.

I believe that Starks get there magical abilities by blood sacrifice and for that magic important is Stark bloodline and Winterfell. From there is saying about Stark in Winterfell, but now Starks forgot why is that and they practice that like superstition.

I understand what you talking about in last paragraph, I like mythology also. But don't you think that all that stuff repeating over and over again about Stark in Winterfell, Crypts, Kings of Winter, sacrifices, entrails on weirwood don't have some purpose in future.

[YOVMO]

1 minute ago, Cragen said:

I didn't claim that Starks are 100% immune to becoming Wight, I'm just saying that there is enough clues if GRRM wants to use it in future for some reason. Do you believe maesters version of dawn ages history, when we know that they do everything possible to convince people that magic isn't real and it was never real. Rogue Prince and The Princes and The Queen are obvious examples of maesters falsification of history. Night's King story is told from two different sources Ygrit and Old Nun.

I believe that Starks get there magical abilities by blood sacrifice and for that magic important is Stark bloodline and Winterfell. From there is saying about Stark in Winterfell, but now Starks forgot why is that and they practice that like superstition.

I understand what you talking about in last paragraph, I like mythology also. But don't you think that all that stuff repeating over and over again about Stark in Winterfell, Crypts, Kings of Winter, sacrifices, entrails on weirwood don't have some purpose in future.

I think that it is a mixed bag. Obviously the Maesters are indeed trying to cover up as much magic as they can. On the other hand, the singers and superstitious old ladies like to see magic at every turn and, of course, the truth is somewhere in between.

Even if the Night King's story is correct, as told, all we know is that he gave his soul to a woman who might have been an other (some maesters think it was a daughter of a barrow king) through the ancient process of boning her. I am not sure how he drew the soul out of that particular orifice, but I am guessing that if she was an other she wasn't trying to turn him into a wight, but rather performing some other kind of love/bone specific magic. Unless you want to say all of the wights got that way through fucking an other which would be really interesting. I agree there is a lot packed into the night king story, but I still fail to see where it gives any immunity to stark blood....

As for the always needing to be a stark in winterfell, I have kind of let that one slide. I am as tinfoil as anyone, but that I am just going to leave up to a great house saying they always need a family member at home.

Again, I have to point out, that I don't think there is a practical distinction between how much Stark blood Ned has versus how much Karstark versus how much Jon has.

I am sure there is a connection, as you say, with the Starks and the old Kings of winter, sacrifices, the trees, the crypts etc. I just don't think it involves some kind of immunity to the power of the others, not even partial. If you want to say that starks basically pulled a full on craster and sacrificed to the others as gods for safety or even for help in things like building the wall, then we can chat but I am pretty sure that if, when Jon fights the Other, if things went the other way Jon would have been turned into a Wight no different than Jaffer Flowers was.

[Ebrose]

35 minutes ago, The Broke Howard Hughes said:

Benjen isn't Coldhands, GRRM said so in the leaked original outline material. He's more likely to be the 13th Lord Commander, who could have still been a Stark so the theory would still fit.

which one? the one that says Tyrion was going to burn Winterfell and Jaime become king?

PS: I also don't think CH is Benjen, btw

[Cragen]

32 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

I think that it is a mixed bag. Obviously the Maesters are indeed trying to cover up as much magic as they can. On the other hand, the singers and superstitious old ladies like to see magic at every turn and, of course, the truth is somewhere in between.

Even if the Night King's story is correct, as told, all we know is that he gave his soul to a woman who might have been an other (some maesters think it was a daughter of a barrow king) through the ancient process of boning her. I am not sure how he drew the soul out of that particular orifice, but I am guessing that if she was an other she wasn't trying to turn him into a wight, but rather performing some other kind of love/bone specific magic. Unless you want to say all of the wights got that way through fucking an other which would be really interesting. I agree there is a lot packed into the night king story, but I still fail to see where it gives any immunity to stark blood....

As for the always needing to be a stark in winterfell, I have kind of let that one slide. I am as tinfoil as anyone, but that I am just going to leave up to a great house saying they always need a family member at home.

Again, I have to point out, that I don't think there is a practical distinction between how much Stark blood Ned has versus how much Karstark versus how much Jon has.

I am sure there is a connection, as you say, with the Starks and the old Kings of winter, sacrifices, the trees, the crypts etc. I just don't think it involves some kind of immunity to the power of the others, not even partial. If you want to say that starks basically pulled a full on craster and sacrificed to the others as gods for safety or even for help in things like building the wall, then we can chat but I am pretty sure that if, when Jon fights the Other, if things went the other way Jon would have been turned into a Wight no different than Jaffer Flowers was.

Again I'm not saying that they have immunity, just saying that if GRRM need this to happen for some reason, that I can't see, he established possibility for that. I think that Starks magic have some connection with control of wind, snow or cold. Like that strange snow storm during Stanis marsh and feast in Winterfell. For me it's look like Winterfell is center of that storm. Someone on The Wall noticed that cold winds coming from south, maybe Sam I don't remember.

[YOVMO]

4 minutes ago, Cragen said:

Again I'm not saying that they have immunity, just saying that if GRRM need this to happen for some reason, that I can see, he established possibility for that. I think that Starks magic have some connection with control of wind, snow or cold. Like that strange snow storm during Stanis marsh and feast in Winterfell. For me it's look like Winterfell is center of that storm. Someone on The Wall noticed that cold winds coming from south, maybe Sam I don't remember.

I actually like the idea of some kind of wind association. It seems that the elements play a very interesting role with great houses...I agree that something was magically delicious with the stannis march. I wonder if it has to do with the starks or with winterfell defending itself the way they say the wall does.  As for your greater point that GRRM can work it in, yes, I suppose you are right. I just don't see what it would give us. It seems like he would need an awfully big shoe horn and the pay off wouldn't be that great. However, there have been many things he did that I didn't see a pay off for before and now can't imagine being different.

[Cragen]

11 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

I actually like the idea of some kind of wind association. It seems that the elements play a very interesting role with great houses...I agree that something was magically delicious with the stannis march. I wonder if it has to do with the starks or with winterfell defending itself the way they say the wall does.  As for your greater point that GRRM can work it in, yes, I suppose you are right. I just don't see what it would give us. It seems like he would need an awfully big shoe horn and the pay off wouldn't be that great. However, there have been many things he did that I didn't see a pay off for before and now can't imagine being different.

Exactly, if Winterfell and Wall are built by same person, same magic should be involved. Maybe, Bran is somehow involved. From Theon sample chapter, look like he we will be sacrificed in front of weirwood, maybe Bran will use it for somethin. I'm, obviously, not sure how all that works, we need can only wait for Winds of Winter to be released.

[YOVMO]

1 minute ago, Cragen said:

Exactly, if Winterfell and Wall are built by same person, same magic should be involved. Maybe, Bran is somehow involved. From Theon sample chapter, look like he we will be sacrificed in front of weirwood, maybe Bran will use it for somethin. I'm, obviously, not sure how all that works, we need can only wait for Winds of Winter to be released.

I've not read any sample chapters. I can't stand the lack of context.

[Cragen]

1 minute ago, YOVMO said:

I've not read any sample chapters. I can't stand the lack of context.

Sorry

[YOVMO]

Just now, Cragen said:

Sorry

no need. I know what I am getting into in here. Plenty of things have popped out. I am not going to bury myself under the blankets or complain when I find things out while on a forum about asoiaf lol