Is the Hooded Man actually The Hooded Man?

[bemused]

The logical connection for me is that the Hooded Man was from the Age of Heroes. The Last Hero (and his 12 companions) were involved in ending the Long Night. With a potential new Long Night approaching, figures could be emerging that will play roles comparable to heroes of the last encounter. Probably won't be an exact replay, but more or less the same components will be present...But we don't know that the Banefort Hooded Man played a part at all.

As has been pointed out, the "Hooded Man" in WF is a fan-given name , and I really can't see why or how a Banefort would be there.

The chapter is "A Ghost in WF", but throughout his WF chapters Theon thinks there are many ghosts (and of multiple sorts) This has to be someone Theon thinks is dead.

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

10 hours ago, bemused said:

The logical connection for me is that the Hooded Man was from the Age of Heroes. The Last Hero (and his 12 companions) were involved in ending the Long Night. With a potential new Long Night approaching, figures could be emerging that will play roles comparable to heroes of the last encounter. Probably won't be an exact replay, but more or less the same components will be present...But we don't know that the Banefort Hooded Man played a part at all.

As has been pointed out, the "Hooded Man" in WF is a fan-given name , and I really can't see why or how a Banefort would be there.

The chapter is "A Ghost in WF", but throughout his WF chapters Theon thinks there are many ghosts (and of multiple sorts) This has to be someone Theon thinks is dead.

 

No, the ghost has to be Theon, or this is the only chapter not named for the POV character. This does not rule out the "hooded man" being someone else, however. 

[M_Tootles]

On 7/7/2016 at 11:20 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Would a recognizable Glover, Mollen, or other Stark loyalist be striding around occupied Winterfell if he were striking folks down from the shadows? No this is a brave and haughty man confronting Reek face-to-face. He was wearing a hooded cloak just like Theon was at the beginning of Theon I in Clash.

Certainly not. Which is why the Stark loyalist Mors is in disguise. In cahoots with Mance, he has the glamor-bracelet and is glamored as Roger Ryswell, who in fact was murdered and then had his face eaten by dogs. Look at how "Roger" is always the one discounting everything. There's a reason he says the exact same thing to Theon Mors says to Theon in TWOW.

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

39 minutes ago, M_Tootles said:

Certainly not. Which is why the Stark loyalist Mors is in disguise. In cahoots with Mance, he has the glamor-bracelet and is glamored as Roger Ryswell, who in fact was murdered and then had his face eaten by dogs. Look at how "Roger" is always the one discounting everything. There's a reason he says the exact same thing to Theon Mors says to Theon in TWOW.

 

Please show me where your Mors is wearing a jewel on which his glamor is focused...

[M_Tootles]

9 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Please show me where your Mors is wearing a jewel on which his glamor is focused...

Huh? The theory goes that Mors is working with Mance. Mance gave him the glamor dealy (since Mance is unglamored in Winterfell) and he's masquerading as Roger "the naysayer" Ryswell. I love arguments like this, as if a mystery novel is going to tell you what's going on right away. A 4 year old would figure it out if they talked about Ryswell (or Mors) having a bracelet with a gleaming red ruby.

Cantuse's post: https://cantuse.wordpress.com/2014/09/30/the-hooded-man-uncloaked/

[Lost Melnibonean]

15 minutes ago, M_Tootles said:

Huh? The theory goes that Mors is working with Mance. Mance gave him the glamor dealy (since Mance is unglamored in Winterfell) and he's masquerading as Roger "the naysayer" Ryswell. I love arguments like this, as if a mystery novel is going to tell you what's going on right away. A 4 year old would figure it out if they talked about Ryswell (or Mors) having a bracelet with a gleaming red ruby.

Cantuse's post: https://cantuse.wordpress.com/2014/09/30/the-hooded-man-uncloaked/

But there should be some hint at the truth. Otherwise you are just making up poo, and you should acknowledge the theory as such (crackpot). 

[bemused]

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

No, the ghost has to be Theon, or this is the only chapter not named for the POV character. This does not rule out the "hooded man" being someone else, however. 

I agree.. That's why a referred to his WF chapters.. this is not the only one where he notices a ghost or ghosts. I wasn't very clear.

[bemused]

1 hour ago, M_Tootles said:

Certainly not. Which is why the Stark loyalist Mors is in disguise. In cahoots with Mance, he has the glamor-bracelet and is glamored as Roger Ryswell, who in fact was murdered and then had his face eaten by dogs. Look at how "Roger" is always the one discounting everything. There's a reason he says the exact same thing to Theon Mors says to Theon in TWOW.

Cantuse's post: https://cantuse.wordpress.com/2014/09/30/the-hooded-man-uncloaked/

Yipes! At the risk of "piling on"... that theory is really nonsensical, IMO.

Look, he's not wearing it, but Mance probably has the ruby with him, because he needed it to get out of CB, and would need it on his return. (And it might yet give him an excellent getaway disguise). However, the ruby creates a specific glamour - namely, Rattleshirt. Mel (and Stannis) would never have given Mance something that let him take on any appearance at will - in effect, that would be a get-out-of-jail-free card.

[M_Tootles]

1 hour ago, bemused said:

Yipes! At the risk of "piling on"... that theory is really nonsensical, IMO.

I mean, that dude is one of the most respected theory-crafters out there. Reddit exploded with joy when he returned after a long hiatus. His stuff all interrelates, which makes everything sound wackier at first blush.

1 hour ago, bemused said:

Look, he's not wearing it, but Mance probably has the ruby with him, because he needed it to get out of CB, and would need it on his return. (And it might yet give him an excellent getaway disguise).

GRRM made the choice to show him without it. This is an intentional, authored work of fiction, so it's eminently reasonable to suppose there's a meaningful reason for that, IMO.

1 hour ago, bemused said:

However, the ruby creates a specific glamour - namely, Rattleshirt. Mel (and Stannis) would never have given Mance something that let him take on any appearance at will - in effect, that would be a get-out-of-jail-free card.

Yeah... I don't think it works like that (i.e. this ruby can only do one thing.) He took Roger's pin. The text constantly draws the reader's attention to it (if you're paying attention). That's the "anchor" for the Roger glamor.

[bemused]

6 hours ago, M_Tootles said:

I mean, that dude is one of the most respected theory-crafters out there. Reddit exploded with joy when he returned after a long hiatus. His stuff all interrelates, which makes everything sound wackier at first blush.

That may be, and I don't begrudge reddit users their joy .. but I find his theories sometimes are good up to a point, but then can go right off the rails - and sometimes they're founded on assumptions I already disagree with. I respect his effort and organization, but definitely not all of his conclusions.

The theories I espouse (my own and those of others that have convinced me) all interrelate as well .. That's only natural, we're all looking to see how the pieces fit in the larger puzzle (but we don't know what the end result is supposed to look like)... The danger for anyone (including canteuse) is ,one mistaken conclusion can lead you to make many others.

6 hours ago, M_Tootles said:

GRRM made the choice to show him without it. This is an intentional, authored work of fiction, so it's eminently reasonable to suppose there's a meaningful reason for that, IMO.

Yes.. I believe George's reason is, Mance wasn't wearing it, but keeping it hidden to use later for re-entry to CB, or to escape, if necessary.

 Don't forget Mance says he adopted the Abel persona when he went to WF in AGoT . He also says he'd been across the wall "half a hundred times" .. but makes no claim to be a raider, himself. Some northerners, perhaps even Bolton men, have probably seen him as "Abel the traveling singer" every now and then since he left the watch. What better way to get the news of events below the wall?.. He needs the ruby for when he needs to alter his appearance.

Lightbringer appears to be under a glamour projected by Mel through the ruby on it's pommel. There's no reason to think it can appear as any other kind of sword. Mel is the magic wielder, not Mance.

GRRM does not reveal how Mel works the magic, he only shows us the result.

6 hours ago, M_Tootles said:

Yeah... I don't think it works like that (i.e. this ruby can only do one thing.) He took Roger's pin. The text constantly draws the reader's attention to it (if you're paying attention). That's the "anchor" for the Roger glamor.

I've been paying attention since the book was published, and Roger's "iron horsehead brooch" has still only been mentioned once, and his cloak is not described as hooded. .. This is not "constantly" by any stretch of the imagination.

I could nit-pick many, many details, but there's not much point, because much of canteuse's HM theory, is founded on premises I can't agree with.

I don't think the spearwives are the killers, or the hooded man. I think it's Ramsay as per Theon's first thoughts on the matter.

I think Barbrey Dustin and her brothers (all of them, including Roger) are with the northern resistance (GNC, if you like). They're playing a part.

I think the HM is Benjen :

Lost Melnibonean has his theory (above), and he makes a good argument, but I've been convinced by all these other clues that leapt out at me while reading.

George will straighten us all out eventually.

[Lost Melnibonean]

19 hours ago, bemused said:

That may be, and I don't begrudge reddit users their joy .. but I find his theories sometimes are good up to a point, but then can go right off the rails - and sometimes they're founded on assumptions I already disagree with. I respect his effort and organization, but definitely not all of his conclusions.

The theories I espouse (my own and those of others that have convinced me) all interrelate as well .. That's only natural, we're all looking to see how the pieces fit in the larger puzzle (but we don't know what the end result is supposed to look like)... The danger for anyone (including canteuse) is ,one mistaken conclusion can lead you to make many others.

Yes.. I believe George's reason is, Mance wasn't wearing it, but keeping it hidden to use later for re-entry to CB, or to escape, if necessary.

 Don't forget Mance says he adopted the Abel persona when he went to WF in AGoT . He also says he'd been across the wall "half a hundred times" .. but makes no claim to be a raider, himself. Some northerners, perhaps even Bolton men, have probably seen him as "Abel the traveling singer" every now and then since he left the watch. What better way to get the news of events below the wall?.. He needs the ruby for when he needs to alter his appearance.

Lightbringer appears to be under a glamour projected by Mel through the ruby on it's pommel. There's no reason to think it can appear as any other kind of sword. Mel is the magic wielder, not Mance.

GRRM does not reveal how Mel works the magic, he only shows us the result.

I've been paying attention since the book was published, and Roger's "iron horsehead brooch" has still only been mentioned once, and his cloak is not described as hooded. .. This is not "constantly" by any stretch of the imagination.

I could nit-pick many, many details, but there's not much point, because much of canteuse's HM theory, is founded on premises I can't agree with.

I don't think the spearwives are the killers, or the hooded man. I think it's Ramsay as per Theon's first thoughts on the matter.

I think Barbrey Dustin and her brothers (all of them, including Roger) are with the northern resistance (GNC, if you like). They're playing a part.

I think the HM is Benjen :

Lost Melnibonean has his theory (above), and he makes a good argument, but I've been convinced by all these other clues that leapt out at me while reading.

George will straighten us all out eventually.

The Theon Durden theory is not mine. I adopted it after reading it on this forum a few years ago. 

[bemused]

Correction noted. (You still argue it well.)

I just knew we'd both been involved in many HM threads before.

[gregg22]

On 7/8/2016 at 3:51 AM, bemused said:

 

The chapter is "A Ghost in WF", but throughout his WF chapters Theon thinks there are many ghosts (and of multiple sorts) This has to be someone Theon thinks is dead.

 

Yes I agree, and it's one of the reasons I also consider Benfred Tallhart a candidate.

He often hung around Robb and Theon at WF, and his death seemed to bother Theon. When Theon defeated and captured him, Benfred spit on him and called him a Turncloak. Theon was going to let him live for "questioning", but uncle Aeron told Theon he must die for that. Aeron said he had to be drowned. It was an odd moment when Theon decided not to witness it, and it gave Aeron pause. Theon did later see Benfred s lifeless body being dragged from the water, but as we know in this world "what is dead may never die".

Lady Dustin also points out there are Tallhart men present, and they have no love for the Freys, because they an other houses had men at the RW.

 

[M_Tootles]

On 7/9/2016 at 1:41 AM, bemused said:

I've been paying attention since the book was published, and Roger's "iron horsehead brooch" has still only been mentioned once, and his cloak is not described as hooded. .. This is not "constantly" by any stretch of the imagination.

It's been a long time since I've read the theory. Mea culpa there. You're of course correct that it's mentioned once. The conspicuous thing -- and after reading your Benjen theory I don't think you'd argue with this method of reading the text (I actually think you and I and cantuse are alike in assuming details are there for a reason and there are deep, deep levels to GRRM's prose) -- it that whereas the other people's faces are described, Ryswell's is wholly elided in favor of talking about his brooch, which is precisely the sort of thing to hang a glamor on per Mel's explanation.

 

Quote

I think Barbrey Dustin and her brothers (all of them, including Roger) are with the northern resistance (GNC, if you like). They're playing a part.

I actually don't necessarily disagree. It's already something I have on the list of stuff to think about it next reread.

 

Quote

I think the HM is Benjen :

I read all 4 parts. Well, big chunks of them. I think you might be surprised at what I'm about to say.

I don't hate this. Skagos never really felt like a good payoff, esp. with the Stark in Winterfell thing.

Here's some things I didn't see in your evidence you'll like (and which I think you'll see indicate we don't read the text all that dissimilarly):

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Three days after their arrival, Jon had heard that Benjen Stark was to lead a half-dozen men on a ranging into the haunted forest. That night he sought out his uncle in the great timbered common hall and pleaded to go with him. Benjen refused him curtly. "This is not Winterfell," he told him as he cut his meat with fork and dagger. "On the Wall, a man gets only what he earns. You're no ranger, Jon, only a green boy with the smell of summer still on you." (GOT Jon III)

GRRM says shit for a reason. Sometimes he says it twice:

Quote

Benjen Stark frowned. "A boy you are, and a boy you'll remain until Ser Alliser says you are fit to be a man of the Night's Watch. If you thought your Stark blood would win you easy favors, you were wrong. We put aside our old families when we swear our vows. Your father will always have a place in my heart, but these are my brothers now." He gestured with his dagger at the men around them, all the hard cold men in black. (GOT Jon III)

As you say, the precautionary move fits with Benjen. It might fit with other people too. The "dagger" detail matching something GRRM mentions twice in some of our only time with Benjen? That's a more specific hint, IMO.

You say:

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The man is striding , not just wandering about ,like Theon , so they come upon each other suddenly.

...and rightly talk about in-world stuff that fits. Let's go meta.

• Who's the most famous Strider in fantasy literature?
• And what is he, "really"?

A ranger. Like Benjen.

• The sigil of Jon's unshakeable ally and friend Sam Tarly's house is whhat?

The Striding Huntsman, i.e. another term for "striding ranger".

Another notable "strider":

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Jon had to hurry his steps to keep up with Qhorin's long strides. (COK Jon V)

Another ranger.

The Night Walker catch is great, and for me it's also a reference to Benjen's presumed fate: a Night's Watchman killed by White Walkers.

It's funny (SO TO SPEAK HAR!) that you talk about Benjen's laughter. I'm 72 ss pages deep into crazy serious tinfoil and his laughter turns up twice. As ever, tons of shit in ASOIAF is overburdened, brilliantly so. But yeah, the catch on both HM laughing and then his parting shot fit wonderfully.

So here's where I'm at: If Benjen is the Hooded Man, it doesn't necessarily follow that "Roger Ryswell" wasn't killed and replaced, right?. (Barbrey may be her own animal, or may not be part of the GNC; she may want Ramsay dead but view Roose positively -- I think there's more to Roose than we know. You ever look up sable black and silver? Benjen's got him some, too...)

And now... hmm...This was just too much for me:

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"Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer." - Hooded Man (DWD GiW)

and

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Stannis snorted.  "You fell.  Umber saved her.  If Mors Crowfood and his men had not been outside the castle, Bolton would have had the both of you back in moments."

Crowfood.  Theon remembered.  An old man, huge and powerful, with a ruddy face and a shaggy white beard.  He had been seated on a garron, clad in the pelt of a gigantic snow bear, its head his hood.  Under it he wore a stained white leather eye patch that reminded Theon of his uncle Euron.  He'd wanted to rip it off Umber's face, to make certain that underneath was only an empty socket, not a black eye shining with malice.  Instead he had whimpered through his broken teeth and said, "I am — "

" —  a turncloak and a kinslayer," Crowfood had finished.  "You will hold that lying tongue, or lose it."     

but now I just noticed something interesting:

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Farther on, he came upon a man striding in the opposite direction, a hooded cloak flapping behind him. When they found themselves face-to-face their eyes met briefly

The theory goes, of course, that Crowfood isn't glamored and that's why they recognize one another, why Theon takes off the glove and so forth. But Mors Umber doesn't have "eyes". He's only got one. Now, the phrase still works: multiple eyes meet, right? So this could either be a red herring designing to deflect from Mors, or a clue that the Hooded Man, he's got binocular vision.

Man. Hmmm... FWIW, in the WOW chapter there's a dagger, but it doesn't belong to Mors. And "Umber" and "dagger" only appear together when the Freys are stabby stabby at the Red Wedding.

[M_Tootles]

On 7/9/2016 at 1:41 AM, bemused said:

STUFF

Forgot to ask you: I didn't quite follow where The Liddle is Myrtle. Can you s'plain? (I get that the Liddle Bran meets on the road is THE Liddle, that's been talked about a lot bc "my lord".)

[sweetsunray]

I found Cantuse's proposal regarding Mors for the HM interesting, left field, but I must argue with Bemused's counter arguments. It would be neat, but I think Bemused is correct that the glamor has limited use for Mance. And he'll need it to look like someone else if must needs for an escape.

The 2 Ryswells whose names Theon interchanges is indeed interesting, and I think it's possible that the body found may be one of them for a certain legacy rivalry, and that it was not meant to be found that soon. That has always been a point by Cantuse that I found intruiging.

I myself follow the Theon Durden theory, because Theon's chapter of tWoW always left me with an unsettled feeling that Theon has an unstable personality from the trauma (Smeagol-Gollum). After finding Theon again, he recognizes that Reek might come back. People also think that because he saved Jeyne Poole he has not just re-claimed his Theon identity, but that the Theon identity is now a "good person". But aCoK shows that Theon is morally ambiguous to begin with. Theon is brave and smart, but he's also egocentrical, vain and abusive to women (he certainly doesn't think well of them) and "angry young man". Reek is a coward and weak, but far more empathic and docile. I think that Theon will not remain Theon, but at some point, under stress of (imagined) fear for Ramsay coming after him, or if feeling betrayed/abused will go back to Reek. It's one of the reasons I agree with Cantuse that Theon is the actual author of the Pink Letter.

The mix-up of the Ryswells in Theon's mind also fits the Theon Durden theory. 2 people that look alike and Theon confuses one with the other all the time. He sees the same "appearance" but they are "2 persons". They visually mirror his split personality imo. And in this phase he's switching between Reek-Theon. 

Theon can use a dagger btw. He's able to use a dagger to eat.

[M_Tootles]

46 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

 

I can't even talk about how awesome your bear posts are. I've sent many people to look at them.

[bemused]

4 hours ago, M_Tootles said:

Forgot to ask you: I didn't quite follow where The Liddle is Myrtle. Can you s'plain? (I get that the Liddle Bran meets on the road is THE Liddle, that's been talked about a lot bc "my lord".)

This was a theory put forth (for me very convincingly) by a poster named redriver , who I haven't noticed posting recently. (It's probably in the archives from about 2013, but I can't remember the title and he may have developed it in a thread opened by someone else)

 Roughly, it goes ... Mance asked for 6 young pretty spearwives to accompany him and supplied names. Edd bought them to CB from Mole's Town. When they get to WF, one is older grey haired, deep voiced. rr speculates that Mance ran into Torren Liddle (The Liddle) just as Bran & co did.

From ASoS... “The wolves will come again,” said Jojen solemnly.
“And how would you be knowing, boy?”
“I dreamed it.”
“Some nights I dream of me mother that I buried nine years past,” the man said, “but when I wake, she’s not come back to us.”

.. and he concludes (from this and other things) that Myrtle (probably the name of his old mother) is The Liddle, and the one who connects Mance to the resistance.. From this point we differ a bit - he thinks the spearwives did the killings, I don't (except for m-m-maybe the naked, grizzled Frey squire)... He thinks "Myrtle" is the HM, I don't (too many changes of clothes).

I remember discussing with him re: the clans .. The Flint  and The Norrey are at the Wall with Jon (and NW ranger, "Big" Liddle). The Wull and "Middle" Liddle are with Stannis, ..Probably "Little" (Rickard ) Liddle has been left holding the fort,  and The Liddle (Myrtle) with Mance and the Northern malcontents inside WF.  ... (Also, for us, the shrub myrtle can be symbolic of immortality, so in a way, Torren's mother lives on. )

I'll respond to more tomorrow. Late, here.

[M_Tootles]

34 minutes ago, bemused said:

This was a theory put forth (for me very convincingly) by a poster named redriver , who I haven't noticed posting recently. (It's probably in the archives from about 2013, but I can't remember the title and he may have developed it in a thread opened by someone else)

Yeah, I enjoyed all the bits in your posts about the disposition of the clans, I just missed how exactly it was figured that Myrtle = Liddle. Cheers.

[sweetsunray]

7 hours ago, M_Tootles said:

I can't even talk about how awesome your bear posts are. I've sent many people to look at them.

hehe, thanks... Bears and swans... bears and swans