Macgregor of the North

Help needed.Some confused Thoughts on Bran/Brandon the builder.

218 posts in this topic

On 7/16/2016 at 0:07 PM, Feather Crystal said:

Speaking of the use of color to communicate, I would invite you to reread The Reaver - AFFC chapter 29. GRRM repeats various colors over and over. Below is an excerpt of an essay I'm still working on of this chapter. I draw some parallels with Victarion to Aegor River's account of the First Blackfyre Rebellion:

I read The Reaver and is there any particular reason you asked me to read that chapter or is it just the next one you're working on? I ask because HOLY SHIT there is an insane amount of foreshadowing going on in this chapter. I am really looking forward to reading the IB storylines so I can suss out what all is going on. I can't speak too much on the colors to be honest, there is a lot going on and I was getting pulled in a lot of directions. White and red off the top of my head are as you put it, Bloodraven, Jon Snow's direwolf Ghost, and the faces of weirwoods, each being a representative of magic. Green and gold is most prominently used with Renly, Cersei, and the dragon Rhaegal. I think these are used to symbolically denote Victarion/Euron in the chapter.

I talked to you about rams and shields being somewhat interchangeable and the moment that kicks off the fighting is Victarion ramming another ship. Euron is the bloodthirsty one but stays away from the fighting. Victarion is the one fighting for glory yet receives none of the spoils. Euron, the elder brother, is taking the place of the white and red ram, using blood sacrifice in an attempt to be a king that exalts himself to godhood (specifically as the Storm God). Euron on the other hand is the green and gold sails that carry him, resentful of being passed over, and plots betrayal of his brother to become the king himself. Victarion broods on Euron and what he must do, similar to Stannis after he has killed Renly. He wonders if he did not strike the blow himself is he still a kinslayer? I'm sure Stannis thought something similar after his dream of Renly. The chapter this takes place in has a fair amount of green/gold imagery for Stannis as the betrayer, even though Renly was originally the usurper to Stannis' claim. It seems more of a reversal as it's not a full inversion, just swapping places in the use of symbolism.

If I'm correct in my beliefs then this chapter is heavily foreshadowing future events for the Targaryen heirs that will crop up to support Daenerys and their eventual fracturing/in-fighting. It's interesting because the chapter starts with the climax of this in-fighting and works it's way backwards as we learn more of the growing enmity Vic feels towards Euron. This eventually ends with Vic saying he will steal Euron's bride, specifically Dany, which is how I believe all this Targ in-fighting will begin in the first place. I definitely see your idea of the wheel working backwards in this chapter. Also what does that mean if Dany wants to break the wheel, any thoughts there?

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On 7/14/2016 at 2:42 PM, Cowboy Dan said:

 I do not believe that the end will be breaking of the cycle but a fulfillment. Bran is a child and throughout the story areas like the Wall, Moat Cailin, etc. have large building blocks of black stone referred to as a "child's broken toys." It definitely hints that Bran will rebuild but it's also possible it will be his fault things get broken in the first place. He is a child playing at being a god after all.

Eloquently put.  The abandoned building blocks or broken toys also evoke cyvasse pieces mentioned by many of you upthread (in turn suggestive of the human-beings-as-pieces-in-a-game motif), which are alternately configured and deconfigured in various versions and inversions, of which there appear to be a surprisingly limited number of patterns despite ostensibly offering infinite variation, over time.  To my mind, a major theme of the 'game' of thrones and its sequelae is that it's really not a game, although one might play and dabble with other people's lives, and ones own, as though it is. As an example of the gravity of these games, I'll quote one of those passages which you referenced:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Tyrion III

Still, it was nothing that Tyrion could not manage. He looked off to the east and west, at the Wall stretching before him, a vast white road with no beginning and no end and a dark abyss on either side. West, he decided, for no special reason, and he began to walk that way, following the pathway nearest the north edge, where the gravel looked freshest.

His bare cheeks were ruddy with the cold, and his legs complained more loudly with every step, but Tyrion ignored them. The wind swirled around him, gravel crunched beneath his boots, while ahead the white ribbon followed the lines of the hills, rising higher and higher, until it was lost beyond the western horizon. He passed a massive catapult, as tall as a city wall, its base sunk deep into the Wall. The throwing arm had been taken off for repairs and then forgotten; it lay there like a broken toy, half-embedded in the ice.

The catapult has lost its throwing arm...In a similar vein, both Jaime and Bran -- inextricably intertwined with one another and the act of throwing and being thrown -- have lost limbs.  Lost limbs, brokenness, no source and no resolution 'a vast white road with no beginning and no end,' and 'a dark abyss on either side.'  If Bran is to fix what was broken, it'll be like being catapulted back and forth into time, hoping the metaphorical arm doesn't break, and then walking a tightrope.

Your choice of the word 'fulfillment' is evocative.  Bran's arc is like the fulfillment of a prophecy, without a source.  The difficulty lies in not being able to locate and circumscribe the source or origin, a difficulty which becomes especially pronounced with time-travel, since the looping of the time-travel itself circumvents linearity, creating paradoxes whereby the extent of a person's influence might pre-date and post-date his/her birth and death respectively (actually, with the (un)furling paradoxes one can no longer talk sensibly of 'pre-' and 'post-'!).  If, however, the source could be pinpointed with a clear beginning and end, and eliminated, as one might excise a cancer with wide margins in order to prevent further spread, then presumably fixing historical glitches with surgical precision would be easy.  Similarly, would it really be accurate to say that Cersei's fate was 'triggered,' in the sense of being set in motion, by the wood's witch's prophecy?  Assuming, as a thought experiment, Cersei could time-travel, could she just go back in time and get rid of the wood's witch before she's able to hear the prophecy?  Would that be enough to 'break' the oppressive nature of the cycle...would no-one end up in a well...Is it possible to 'unhear' the song, and therefore not sing it?

2 hours ago, Seams said:

It might not be her work to supplant the Baratheon line that represents Cersei's Lann the Clever behavior (although it does fit) but her claim to rule at Casterly Rock when that is rightfully Tyrion's seat (probably arguable, I realize, since he was sentenced to death). I've been waiting to see how GRRM would make use of Tyrion's expertise with the Casterly sewer system. I would not be at all surprised if Cersei tries to drown him or someone else who is holding the castle, and Tyrion prevents the flooding by opening up key drains to keep the water flowing. Or it could be the other way around - Tyrion knows how to block the sewers and floods Cersei, holed up in the mines under the castle.

The examination of House Webber caused me to think about a possible connection between House Webber - Rohanne's father was Wyman - and Wyman Manderly. The wiki reminds me that it is Rohanne who tells Dunk (and the reader) that House Manderly was driven out of the Reach a thousand years ago. If Macgregor's discovery holds, does this mean that the Manderlys will be returning to the Reach in this generation? Look for a Manderly vs. Peake grudge match. It might also mean that the Webbers and the Manderlys are distantly related and both have Lann the Clever bloodlines.

And just to tie everything neatly in one bow - the merman sigil of House Manderly is probably a sign that the Lannister's favorite murder technique, drowning, will not work on the Manderlys. We already know that Septon Chayle told Bran he grew up on the White Knife and that he is a strong swimmer. Theon threw him in a well, but I am guessing that he swam out through the underground hot springs at Winterfell. If he was born a Manderly, the swimming ability is a sign of the lack of power any new Lann the Clever would exercise over that noble House.

Hi @Seams!  You can always be counted on for some penetrating puns!  It seems you have inspired me, since your mention of 'Webber' reminded me of the wordplay inherent in 'webber', which evokes 'weaving', both in the sense of weaving a net, trap or spider's web (and attendant intrigue) as well as the sense of weaving/navigating/one might say swimming ones way through the obstacles presented by that selfsame net.  In addition, there is the delightful connotation of having 'webbed' feet which would come in handy should one need to swim out of a tricky watery situation, as you've indicated with the Webber-Wyman-Manderly connection!  Strangely enough, Varys embodies all of these...he's the spider, master-weaver and houdini escape artist, and he might even have webbed feet hidden away in those slippery slippers, judging from his facility in the 'water':

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion II

"Then why do I have this bitter taste in my mouth?" He pressed his fingers into his temples. "I told them to throw Allar Deem into the sea. I am sorely tempted to do the same with you."

"You might be disappointed by the result," Varys replied. "The storms come and go, the waves crash overhead, the big fish eat the little fish, and I keep on paddling

Although I like the feminist angle to 'Lann the Clever,' if anyone is the reprisal of Lann the Clever and Reynard the fox it's probably Tyrion.  Foxes are small, cunning creatures with a wide range and territory, who adapt to circumstances, learn from experience, and are bold enough to take on animals much larger than themselves.  Like Lann the Clever is rumored to have done, Tyrion repeatedly demonstrates an ability to outwit his enemies by infiltrating their homes, weaving his way through the labyrinthine subterranean infrastructure of narrow tunnels etc., for example how at home he feels in the dungeons of the Red Keep (which allows him to slip into the Tower of the Hand and kill Shae and Tywin), as well as his mastery of the Casterly Rock sewer system which you've mentioned and will surely pay dividends by the end of the story.  As Brown Ben Plumm pointed out to Dany, the weakest point of any fortified castle or city will be the sewer system where it empties into the river or sea, provided one can slip through the iron grating (the bars forming a kind of weave or net) and survive the dirty business of the swim.  Again, who better to slip through such a net than a small man like Tyrion?  There was a quote on another thread by @LmL which reminded me of Tyrion's versatility in this respect: 

Quote

I just found a cool quote which draws another parallel between Tyrion and Azor Ahai reborn, shadow child of the solar king, from ADWD:

Quote

“The Wall is the last to learn, my father used to say. The dwarf’s escaped. He twisted through the bars of his cell and tore his own father apart with his bare hands. A guardsman saw him flee, red from head to heel, as if he’d bathed in blood. The queen will make a lord of any man who kills him.”

Just as Arya is called "blood child," and just as AA reborn is symbolized by bleeding stars and bloody stones and bloody swords, and just as Mithras slays the bull to bathe the world in blood, Tyrion kills his "father" and bathes in blood (according to hearsay, lol). The language of twisting through the bars matches the shadow baby born by Mel and Stannis, with Stannis being a solar king and Mel a fire moon maiden. That black shadow, which represents AA reborn as I have discussed, twists through the bars in that scene. 

 

This weaving/webbing, which mirrors your seminal pun of sewing/sowing/sewers is a dirty, though deft business. Like the aptly-named 'Brown' Ben who becomes bathed in sewerage after his infiltration escapade, it's interesting too that Tyrion is bathed in another 'dirty' bodily fluid, namely blood, an apparition not unlike a fox red from head to tail, the 'bathing' again a kind of swimming connection.  

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1 hour ago, Cowboy Dan said:

I read The Reaver and is there any particular reason you asked me to read that chapter or is it just the next one you're working on? I ask because HOLY SHIT there is an insane amount of foreshadowing going on in this chapter. I am really looking forward to reading the IB storylines so I can suss out what all is going on. I can't speak too much on the colors to be honest, there is a lot going on and I was getting pulled in a lot of directions. White and red off the top of my head are as you put it, Bloodraven, Jon Snow's direwolf Ghost, and the faces of weirwoods, each being a representative of magic. Green and gold is most prominently used with Renly, Cersei, and the dragon Rhaegal. I think these are used to symbolically denote Victarion/Euron in the chapter.

I talked to you about rams and shields being somewhat interchangeable and the moment that kicks off the fighting is Victarion ramming another ship. Euron is the bloodthirsty one but stays away from the fighting. Victarion is the one fighting for glory yet receives none of the spoils. Euron, the elder brother, is taking the place of the white and red ram, using blood sacrifice in an attempt to be a king that exalts himself to godhood (specifically as the Storm God). Euron on the other hand is the green and gold sails that carry him, resentful of being passed over, and plots betrayal of his brother to become the king himself. Victarion broods on Euron and what he must do, similar to Stannis after he has killed Renly. He wonders if he did not strike the blow himself is he still a kinslayer? I'm sure Stannis thought something similar after his dream of Renly. The chapter this takes place in has a fair amount of green/gold imagery for Stannis as the betrayer, even though Renly was originally the usurper to Stannis' claim. It seems more of a reversal as it's not a full inversion, just swapping places in the use of symbolism.

If I'm correct in my beliefs then this chapter is heavily foreshadowing future events for the Targaryen heirs that will crop up to support Daenerys and their eventual fracturing/in-fighting. It's interesting because the chapter starts with the climax of this in-fighting and works it's way backwards as we learn more of the growing enmity Vic feels towards Euron. This eventually ends with Vic saying he will steal Euron's bride, specifically Dany, which is how I believe all this Targ in-fighting will begin in the first place. I definitely see your idea of the wheel working backwards in this chapter. Also what does that mean if Dany wants to break the wheel, any thoughts there?

I suggested the chapter to you because you were focusing on colors for the moment and there's a lot of color symbolism in that one, but keep in mind that this is an inversion chapter so I think it may be helpful to determine opposite colors to get a sense what GRRM is trying to communicate with the inversions. Yes, I agree there's a lot going on. The only other chapter that I've come across with more information in it is The Queenmaker chapter. 

The Reaver is about Victorian's successful invasion of the Shield Islands, but the inversion story is Bittersteel's failure in the First Blackfyre Rebellion. Bittersteel landed with the Golden Company on Massey's Hook to try to seat Daemon Blackfyre on the throne. I haven't completed deciphering the chapter yet...I'm about 2/3 finished, so I haven't figured out how Bittersteel and Daemon's story would enlighten us as to what happened prior to the Rebellion. I guess its just a hunch right now that these inversion chapters are meant to tell us the details leading into Robert's Rebellion, because not a lot has been spelled out, so how would this historical history lesson help us? Maybe its meant to shed light onto why Bloodraven became a greenseer, because there are some Euron details that would be the inversion of Bloodraven.

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I just have to say that there are so many good posts on page 6 and 7 that I haven't delved into yet. I'm just doing quick responses, but I want to come back when I have more time. You all are so amazing!

I love this thread because it seems there are a number of you that understand the wheel of time/time loop theory, and I would love, love, love if you all would consider joining a second forum called the House of Black and White. I'd like to invite you to reread the 30 inversion chapters, (there's a list in the into essay) and participate in my project, the links for which are in my signature. Eating the Dragon's Tail is the introductory essay explaining the project, and then there's an essay for each chapter. I'm only about 1/3 through the chapters, so I'll be rereading along with you all and can wait until everyone catches up. I had hoped to find additional authors willing to do chapters and if one in particular catches your imagination, just let me know and I'll put your name on it.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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11 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Was gonna post a new thread on this but since this thread is on topic I'll just throw it here. @Feather Crystal @Seams @Manderly's Rat Cook @Cowboy Dan.

Guys, ive been thinking about a saying I've seen scattered through the books and I wonder if it carries more meaning than it appears to. I know that especially when it's said by a member of house Stark it is meant to imply the sayer has been through so much in the story that their memories literally seem to have happened a thousand years ago.

But, I also wonder if it is a cheeky wee clue or nod to the idea we have been discussing, that there are time loops and that these things have 'happened before' a long time ago, if you get my meaning. 

In spare time I gathered together the quotes. See below.

AGOT JON IV:

"Jon told the story of how he and Robb had found the pups newborn in the late summer snows. It seemed a thousand years ago now."

AGOT CAT XI:

"It seemed a thousand years ago that Catelyn Stark had carried her infant son out of Riverrun, crossing the Tumblestone in a small boat to begin their journey north to Winterfell."

ACOK ARYA IV:

"It seemed a thousandyears ago now, something that had happened to a different person in a different life . ."

ACOK JON III:

"On the way back to Winterfell, Jon and Robb had raced, and found six direwolf pups in the snow. A thousand years ago."

ASOS PROLOGUE (Mormont):

"Die," screamed Mormont's raven, flapping its black wings. "Die, die, die."

"Many of us," the Old Bear said. "Mayhaps even all of us. But as another Lord Commander said a thousand years ago, that is why they dress us in black."

(Perhaps you were that LC, Mormont! Who said the same thing a thousand years ago.)

ASOS CAT III:

"The north is hard and cold, and has no mercy, Ned had told her when she first came to Winterfell a thousand years ago."

ASOS SANSA V:

"The king was dead, the cruel king who had been her gallant prince a thousand years ago."

ADWD BRAN III:

"I was going to be a knight, Bran remembered. I used to run and climb and fight. It seemed a thousand years ago"

ADWD THE UGLY LITTLE GIRL:

"A thousand years ago, she had known a girl who loved lemon cakes. No, that was not me, that was only Arya."

ADWD DAENERYS X

"North they flew, beyond the river, Drogon gliding on torn and tattered wings through clouds that whipped by like the banners of some ghostly army. Dany glimpsed the shores of Slaver's Bay and the old Valyrian road that ran beside it through sand and desolation until it vanished in the west. The road home. Then there was nothing beneath them but grass rippling in the wind.
Was that first flight a thousand years ago? Sometimes it seemed as if it must be."

 

May I use this in an essay I'm preparing for Heresy?

10 hours ago, Seams said:

Nice catch! And great timing! In the car, I am listening to the audiobook of Feast again. Yesterday, I listened to a chapter where Lady Genna Lannister Frey is telling Jaime about his father. She described him as someone who comes along once in a thousand years (Emmon Frey said the same thing earlier in the chapter) and I immediately thought of this thread.

"A man such as Tywin Lannister comes but once in a thousand years," declared her husband.

Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years." (AFfC, Jaime V)

When you run the phrase, "a thousand years" through the SearchoIaF site, it does seem to be a code phrase to call attention to the plot elements and characters that echo ancient legends. I'm looking at examples from Feast now, but many of the uses of the phrase occur in those "inversion" chapters listed by Feather Crystal and identified as characters reliving scenes from ancient history or legend.

I like the "Lann the Clever is a woman" theory, but maybe Genna believes that Tywin was the contemporary embodiment of Lann? Or maybe she is unaware of the meaning of this line that GRRM has planted for readers to notice. Maybe it has nothing to do with Lann.

Immediately before Emmon Frey utters the phrase, Genna is asking Jaime whether he will get a "gold father" to replace the one he lost, like the gold hand he had made. Is there a character in legend who is made of gold? Are we supposed to think of King Midas? In the second example, she is talking about Tyrion being Tywin's son (or being more like him than Jaime is). I get this weird feeling that maybe we are supposed to think of Tywin and Tyrion as two different types of monsters. Maelys the Monstrous? It hasn't been a thousand years since he came along, though. But Genna also calls Tywin a "thundering great fool." Is this a storm god reference?

Lots of possibilities here, but that phrase might help us to know where to begin looking, at least. Nice job.

Just wanted to add that Genna and Tywin's father made the marriage match to Emmon Frey much to both Genna's and Tywin's dismay. Tywin said Emmon was beneath Genna's position. 

Loved the thundering fool comment since I happen to believe Robert (Storm Lord) was Tywin's chosen King candidate and I believe they conspired well before Lyanna went missing.

5 hours ago, Seams said:

I had a hunch that maybe the Rohanne Webber connection to the Lannisters might have something to do with the Lann the Clever legend. I was looking for a bloodline that would show an older Lannister connection in the Webber line, but it appears that we don't know anything further back than Rohanne's father, Wyman, and maybe one generation before that, Reynard. But the name Reynard may be a clue: it is associated with the trickster, Reynard the Fox, in European folk tales. It's not a lot to go on, but it might be a little hint that red-haired Lady Rohanne is the Lann the Clever representative for her generation. She does follow the pattern of working her way up to the Lannister marriage and then taking over as Lady of Casterly Rock. The next person who tried this was Ellen Reyne (another Reynard allusion?) but she was defeated by Tywin, who "outfoxed" her. Like Lady Rohanne, Tywin diverts a waterway to defeat an enemy - giving them too much water, though, instead of taking too much.

Genna is another good example. Maybe one of her sons will end up taking over The Twins. When GRRM described her in AFfC, he said she was like two of her husband put together (something like that), referring to her size. So maybe she embodies the Twins, like the good Lannister that she is.

It might not be her work to supplant the Baratheon line that represents Cersei's Lann the Clever behavior (although it does fit) but her claim to rule at Casterly Rock when that is rightfully Tyrion's seat (probably arguable, I realize, since he was sentenced to death). I've been waiting to see how GRRM would make use of Tyrion's expertise with the Casterly sewer system. I would not be at all surprised if Cersei tries to drown him or someone else who is holding the castle, and Tyrion prevents the flooding by opening up key drains to keep the water flowing. Or it could be the other way around - Tyrion knows how to block the sewers and floods Cersei, holed up in the mines under the castle.

The examination of House Webber caused me to think about a possible connection between House Webber - Rohanne's father was Wyman - and Wyman Manderly. The wiki reminds me that it is Rohanne who tells Dunk (and the reader) that House Manderly was driven out of the Reach a thousand years ago. If Macgregor's discovery holds, does this mean that the Manderlys will be returning to the Reach in this generation? Look for a Manderly vs. Peake grudge match. It might also mean that the Webbers and the Manderlys are distantly related and both have Lann the Clever bloodlines.

And just to tie everything neatly in one bow - the merman sigil of House Manderly is probably a sign that the Lannister's favorite murder technique, drowning, will not work on the Manderlys. We already know that Septon Chayle told Bran he grew up on the White Knife and that he is a strong swimmer. Theon threw him in a well, but I am guessing that he swam out through the underground hot springs at Winterfell. If he was born a Manderly, the swimming ability is a sign of the lack of power any new Lann the Clever would exercise over that noble House.

One other thought on Lann the Clever: I haven't explored it much on the Puns and Wordplay thread, but I've wondered whether there is any relationship between the use of a cleaver and Lann the Clever. Dany's butcher King Cleon uses a cleaver, and he might be a symbolic echo of Lann the Clever. Of course, Arya's friend Mycah, who is the first human casualty of the Stark vs. Lannister war, was the butcher's boy. I think there are a few other small references to cleavers that could clarify the meaning or symbolism.

I hope we don't have to wait a thousand years for the next book!

Loved all the free association. Just wanted to add the Manderlys came from the Mander river in the Reach, and I think you're onto something regarding not being able to drown a merman. Patchface says the north is upside down, and north of the Wall is symbolically like a sea. That's why Patchface prophecies involve fish eating other fish, and describes a ranging as a trip into the sea.

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13 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Just a quick post for now just to tell you how much I like the post above about the thousand years! 

More later.

Cheers Feather Crystal. 

Also, @Seams @Manderly's Rat Cook @Cowboy Dan, magic work above with the Lann stuff and foxes etc, enjoyed reading all that, really good stuff in those posts. And everything that's followed them also.

Edited by Macgregor of the North
Text edit.

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3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

May I use this in an essay I'm preparing for Heresy?

Of course FC ;).

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On July 13, 2016 at 3:37 PM, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

The Durrandons were First Men, so they would have a weirwood anyway. No need to get a Stark girl for that. 

Many houses in the south still have weirwood, there's a weirwood in Harrenhal, which Arya prays to, and Harrenhall is a pretty recent castle built by Ironborn... 

I find this unlikely. What makes you think this? 

The first men didn't originally worship the old gods, they slowly took the old gods after the pact on the isle of faces.

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I posted this in Heresy also, but it's relevant to this discussion. Anyone have any thoughts as to what part Bran may play in the following?

If my theory regarding the wheel of time moving in reverse is true, then the return of the white walkers into the realm is to be expected. What is interesting to me is the timing, because I suspect the official timeline is out of order. It makes more sense to have a pact come after a climactic event rather than to have the pact come before the Long Night.

To review what is already occurring:

3 successive blood magic rituals: Summerhal, tower of joy, and Mirri's tent. These mirror the 3 historical "swords" the Children forged: hammer of waters, white walkers (heart of lion), and the comet hitting Nissa Nissa.

We've already seen the return of the comet

Dany is the source/mother of dragons

Euron and Victarion are symbolically a united Bloodraven and Bittersteel on the verge of a successful "Blackfyre" type rebellion due to securing dragons, and I anticipate that they will invade from the west.

Arianne Martell brought a Dornish marriage proposal to young Griff, who came to Westeros from the Rhoyne river symbolically representing the Rhoynar.

Anticipated:

1) Showdown at either Harrenhal or Gods Eye between "dragons and First Men".

2) King in the North will not kneel.

3) Second Long Night

4) Second hammer of waters

5) End of magic - at least the end of access for humans

6) New Pact

7) Second Dawn Age

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@Feather Crystal

Yeah my last post was not using your inversions well. I'm looking forward, using direct symbolic imagery, trying to determine events yet to come. While you're using inversion and gaining deeper insight into past events we've already been told of. I really need to finish reading your posts to get a better grasp on how you use these inversions and brush up on my asoiaf history before contributing anything meaningful to your ideas. I'm always finding new connections and marveling at how much is going on in this series but your inversion theory really makes me feel out of my depth.

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27 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

@Feather Crystal

Yeah my last post was not using your inversions well. I'm looking forward, using direct symbolic imagery, trying to determine events yet to come. While you're using inversion and gaining deeper insight into past events we've already been told of. I really need to finish reading your posts to get a better grasp on how you use these inversions and brush up on my asoiaf history before contributing anything meaningful to your ideas. I'm always finding new connections and marveling at how much is going on in this series but your inversion theory really makes me feel out of my depth.

I'm probably not explaining myself very well. I've been immersed in inversions for six months. It's almost like learning a second language!

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6 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:
Anticipated:

1) Showdown at either Harrenhal or Gods Eye between "dragons and First Men".

2) King in the North will not kneel.

3) Second Long Night

4) Second hammer of waters

5) End of magic - at least the end of access for humans

6) New Pact

7) Second Dawn Age

At least one of these "anticipated" events may have already occurred. I posted this the other day on a Theon thread:

Quote

Yesterday, I re-read the Theon I chapter from Clash, and I was blown away to realize that Theon was put in the place of Thorren Stark, bending the knee to Aegon the Conqueror, except the role of Aegon was played by Theon's uncle, Aeron. Instead of taking his crown, as Aegon did to Thorren, Aeron baptizes Theon with seawater. I think Theon doesn't just yearn to be a Stark; there is some heavy foreshadowing here, and I'm dying to know where it will lead.

In the Puns and Wordplay thread, we considered the relationship between crowned and drowned. It occurs to me that blessing Theon in the name of the Drowned God was like crowning him. Aeron is the arbiter of the Kingsmoot. I think this chapter symbolically shows Aeron crowning the real king of the Iron Born. And I've seen some interesting predictions lately of who will end up being the "new" conquerors of Westeros. Long live King Theon!

As for his relationship with the Starks and the direwolves, as I've mentioned elsewhere, I believe Theon is the personification of the sword Ice. When he goes into the crypt with Lady Dustin, he is going into a symbolic forge where Stark weapons are repaired and rejuvenated. When he emerges, Bran calls to him and pushes back his hood, symbolically "unsheathing" Ned's sword.

Theon DID kneel, but it will allow him to obtain a crown, not to give one up. Or, maybe, no one can take your crown away if you are drowned instead of crowned. What's dead can never die.

I wonder whether the "sea" flowing over the walls of Winterfell was the symbolic Hammer of Waters? This was in Bran's dream, of course, but it "came true" when the Iron Born came over the walls. (I suspect the melting of the Wall will be the new hammer, however. Hoping. Wondering.)

Note: Quote box screwed up yet again, and it won't let me fix it. This quote from my previous post should end after, "...'unsheathing' Ned's sword."

Edited by Seams

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I also noticed that the baptism of Theon takes place in front of an inn, and that an inn was built on the site where Thorren Stark bent the knee to Aegon the Conqueror. I have wondered about the purpose of the significant Inn at the Crossroads and this inn stuff may be another hint for us about the cycles of this wheel of time. I think Dick Crabb tells Brienne all the names of the Inn at the Crossroads, doesn't he? Maybe I'll go back and look at that old list to see what it might tell us.

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2 hours ago, Seams said:

At least one of these "anticipated" events may have already occurred. I posted this the other day on a Theon thread:

If I could figure out how to insert an emoji from my phone it'd be bugged out eyes with my mouth open! Well done! I'm blown away! 

Could I use this for my essay too? Lol 

At the rate this is going you all will write the whole thing for me!

 

Edited by Feather Crystal

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3 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

If I could figure out how to insert an emoji from my phone it'd be bugged out eyes with my mouth open! Well done! I'm blown away! 

Could I use this for my essay too? Lol 

At the rate this is going you all will write the whole thing for me!

 

Of course! I'd be honored if it helps you.

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11 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

The first men didn't originally worship the old gods, they slowly took the old gods after the pact on the isle of faces.

So? Does this somehow mean that the weirwood at Storm's End that Stannis burned was planted by the Baratheons using a Stark girl?

No. It means that the Durrandons had a weirwood, because they worshiped the old gods, because they were First Men.

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I posted on Heresy earlier today that the inhuman Others were the First Men that were allied with the Children and whom were turned into white walkers as weapons to defeat the Andals, therefore the Pact was between the allied First Men/Children and the Andals. This would explain how the Starks were Kings of Winter, but are later overthrown in the story of the Nights King...defeated and warded by iron swords, which was what broke the Pact causing the Children to conjure the comet that hit the moon.

Grouping the Children, giants, and other old races makes me think the Starks may not be who we think they are. They may have First Men blood in their veins, but they may not be from the original lineage that lived in the north. Maybe they're descendants of a brother or cousin? Maybe they're not related at all? Most families in the south also have some First Men blood in their veins, but they intermarried with Andals. It could be that the Starks are transplants from the south just like the Manderlys and Mormonts and are not of the same lineage as the old Kings of Winter. The Starks may be the family that defeated and warded the previous inhabitants of Winterfell.

One explanation that ties in all the other stories into one picture is Bael the Bard and the son killing the father which may also be the same story as the Nights King. The defeated are always vilified. There's an animated history on one of the DVDs that has Ygritte telling the story of the Wall and she says something about the son not being like the father. Basically they wouldn't follow the son after the father died. I think we're dealing with a split within the Stark family where the son turns against the father. The son being allied with the Andals while the father was allied with the Children. After the father is killed his followers are forced north of the Wall and the descendants are the wildlings.

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24 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

So? Does this somehow mean that the weirwood at Storm's End that Stannis burned was planted by the Baratheons using a Stark girl?

No. It means that the Durrandons had a weirwood, because they worshiped the old gods, because they were First Men.

If your going to butt into two people musing just to be a dick at least get what they say right.  You start off here with So?  When I responded to your question, I was not making a new assertion.  The tree had to be planted at some point, or the castle had to be built around it as with WF, the legend says Durrandon may have gotten help from Brandon the builder, a Stark.  In my musing with another poster we were exploring the idea that it was not 1 Durrandon king who built 7 castles but consecutive kings and that it was the 7th king who built the 7th castle, and that perhaps the two lines originally married at that point, and that is when house Durrandon learned about Weirwoods.  At no point did I push this as a solid theory, but you said nothing to disprove it.

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Sorry to just dump that info above without an explanation as to how I tie all that to Bran, but we need to sort through the timeline if we want to figure out how Bran fits in. Jon, of course is the bastard of Winterfell from the Bael story, so if his future is the inversion then his father is still alive, but there should be an opposite ending. Either the father kills the son, or the son saves the father.

Is anyone familiar with the Wheel of Time book series by Robert Jordan? I myself only because aware of the books in the last month and was astounded at how many elements are similar to ASOIAF. The first book is actually titled The Eye of the World. It hasn't been explained what this eye is or does, but I have a feeling it's a greenseer type position, because the book's main characters are going to the place where the Eye of the World is, so if it's in a location, then it's likely some type of being. To get there the characters are traveling through "the ways" which are dark, rock lined tunnels, which of course sound like the tunnels in ASOIAF. The ways were built by ogres, which also coincides with the giants of ASOIAF. Several of the characters are bastards raised by men who really weren't their biological fathers, and these boys are reborn heroes from thousands of years ago, just like Jon and Bran likely are. So Bran may be Bran the Builder reborn, or he's a time traveler and he's the same Bran that built the Wall and Storm's End.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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15 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Sorry to just dump that info above without an explanation as to how I tie all that to Bran, but we need to sort through the timeline if we want to figure out how Bran fits in. Jon, of course is the bastard of Winterfell from the Bael story, so if his future is the inversion then his father is still alive, but there should be an opposite ending. Either the father kills the son, or the son saves the father.

Is anyone familiar with the Wheel of Time book series by Robert Jordan? I myself only because aware of the books in the last month and was astounded at how many elements are similar to ASOIAF. The first book is actually titled The Eye of the World. It hasn't been explained what this eye is or does, but I have a feeling it's a greenseer type position, because the book's main characters are going to the place where the Eye of the World is, so if it's in a location, then it's likely some type of being. To get there the characters are traveling through "the ways" which are dark, rock lined tunnels, which of course sound like the tunnels in ASOIAF. The ways were built by ogres, which also coincides with the giants of ASOIAF. Several of the characters are bastards raised by men who really weren't their biological fathers, and these boys are reborn heroes from thousands of years ago, just like Jon and Bran likely are. So Bran may be Bran the Builder reborn, or he's a time traveler and he's the same Bran that built the Wall and Storm's End.

I have not but I wanted to say certain elements reminded me of The Dark Tower series by Stephen King. It similarly features a journey to the nexus of reality which is the Dark Tower. There's lots of left over technology that's basically considered magic from current day humanity. It features the main character, last of his kind, and his three fated companions (three-headed dragon much). There are certain locations referred to as "thinnies" where the world meshes with other worlds and magic seeps through, kind of like the hinges of Planetos where magic is stronger. King also uses an insane amount of references and complexity but a lot of it is rooted in his own stories and mythos. GRRM OTOH roots his stuff in a lot of real-world mythology, history, and fantasy. Honestly I think these stories use a lot of similar archetypal ideas then repurpose them to fit pretty organically into their own universe so there are bound to be similarities.

ETA: But yeah I've seen some pretty lengthy discussion on the similarity with TWOT and ASOIAF, not trying to say it's not an influence. Just that GRRM has LOTS of influences.

Edited by Cowboy Dan

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