Help needed.Some confused Thoughts on Bran/Brandon the builder.

[Melifeather]

41 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

I have not but I wanted to say certain elements reminded me of The Dark Tower series by Stephen King. It similarly features a journey to the nexus of reality which is the Dark Tower. There's lots of left over technology that's basically considered magic from current day humanity. It features the main character, last of his kind, and his three fated companions (three-headed dragon much). There are certain locations referred to as "thinnies" where the world meshes with other worlds and magic seeps through, kind of like the hinges of Planetos where magic is stronger. King also uses an insane amount of references and complexity but a lot of it is rooted in his own stories and mythos. GRRM OTOH roots his stuff in a lot of real-world mythology, history, and fantasy. Honestly I think these stories use a lot of similar archetypal ideas then repurpose them to fit pretty organically into their own universe so there are bound to be similarities.

ETA: But yeah I've seen some pretty lengthy discussion on the similarity with TWOT and ASOIAF, not trying to say it's not an influence. Just that GRRM has LOTS of influences.

I quite agree that he's drawing from many influences. My interest got peaked because of the wheel of time, which is something that I'm obviously interested in. 

[WightWalker]

It's funny that you mention "the wheel" of time.  I agree with many of you that events in Planetos seem to move in a wheel.  I also suspect that this cycle is tied to the wane/wax cycle of magic that also seems to occur.  And, as Dany famously says, she is going to "break the wheel."  The current events unfolding in the book represent the end to the recurring cycle.  To me this implies that, in order for the wheel to break, the cycle of magic has to break too.

I imagine that Bran, watching the cycle play out over and over through the weirwoods, will realize that the cycle of magic leads to some sort of cataclysm (in the current iteration some combination, perhaps, of white walkers, grayscale, and ghost grass?).  He will conclude that in order to stop the cycle, magic has to be eliminated.  I think the maesters have already figured this out - as many people on this forum have theorized, there is some sort of citadel anti-magic conspiracy.  However the cataclysm of this cycle plays out, the series is going to end with the last remainders of magic (dragons: Dany, Tyrion and Jon; as well as wolves: Arya, Bran and Jon - also the five main characters that GRRM originally planned to survive) will have to leave Westeros a la LOTR/Inheritance and sail across the Sunset Sea (foreshadowed by Arya's curiosity about what lies beyond).  Hence the bittersweet ending.  All the other main characters will probably be dead.

OR this could just be my imagination running away with me and leading to a rambling crackpot prediction not based in fact.

Regardless, I think it's a fair bet that we are not simply reading a re-hash of the cycle.  I think this is where the wheel breaks.  So instead of finding the PARALLELS between the past and current storyline, why don't we focus on what has happened differently this time, to pinpoint how (Bran, probably) is going to get the cycle of cataclysm/rebirth to end with a 'dream of spring.' If, as many of you have suggested, the cycle is now moving in reverse, did Bran have something to do with this?  What initiated the reversal?  Summerhall?  Did Bran have something to do with Summerhall?

[Seams]

On 7/20/2016 at 0:42 PM, Feather Crystal said:

If my theory regarding the wheel of time moving in reverse is true, ...

Anticipated:

1) Showdown at either Harrenhal or Gods Eye between "dragons and First Men".

2) King in the North will not kneel.

3) Second Long Night

4) Second hammer of waters

5) End of magic - at least the end of access for humans

6) New Pact

7) Second Dawn Age

I was just looking at mentions of frogs and frogeaters in the text for something I wanted to post on the Puns and Wordplay thread. (Long story short: I think there is a pun with frogeaters and forgetters, so people who eat frogs are remembering something.) One of the mentions of frogs comes in a description of herons, birds that eat frogs. I thought this might have something to do with Harrenhal and foreshadowing. Janos Slynt is consistently described as frog-faced, and he is executed by Lord Commander Jon Snow. Quentyn Martell is nicknamed Frog, and he dies trying to bond with Dany's green-scaled dragon named Rhaegal. Maybe these frog-eater/killer scenes, particularly when they involve dragons, are all foreshadowing for the event you foresee at Harrenhal. (Note: Meera carries a trident, like the river where Rhaegar died, and she wears a vest made with bronze scales.)

Another thought on the King in the North not kneeling: In addition to the clear parallels in the scene with Theon kneeling before Aeron, the refusing to kneel could be Sansa at her marriage to Tyrion. That takes place before the Iron Throne. Accepting the cloak symbolizes submission by the wife and protection from the husband, sort of like bending the knee to a conquering king. Sansa saves Sandor's bloody cloak, of course, and soon receives a cloak she does not need - because she is already wearing her own cloak - from Littlefinger, when she boards his waiting ship after escaping the wedding reception. Instead of Sansa kneeling, Tyrion steps on the back of crouched-down Ser Dontos, a knight, a fool, an alcoholic, a conspirator and a former child who was spared from the death penalty (much the way that Ned asked Robert to spare Dany).

[Macgregor of the North]

4 hours ago, WightWalker said:

 And, as Dany famously says, she is going to "break the wheel."  

[Macgregor of the North]

@WightWalker sorry my post went a bit weird, I can't recall Dany ever saying break the wheel in the books. While I can't rule out GRRM agreed they could insert it into that other world we see on the TV as a quirky clue I'd rather not even ponder it. 

Lets keep the show stuff out of here please mate. Welcome though! 

[Melifeather]

9 hours ago, WightWalker said:

It's funny that you mention "the wheel" of time.  I agree with many of you that events in Planetos seem to move in a wheel.  I also suspect that this cycle is tied to the wane/wax cycle of magic that also seems to occur.  And, as Dany famously says, she is going to "break the wheel."  The current events unfolding in the book represent the end to the recurring cycle.  To me this implies that, in order for the wheel to break, the cycle of magic has to break too.

I imagine that Bran, watching the cycle play out over and over through the weirwoods, will realize that the cycle of magic leads to some sort of cataclysm (in the current iteration some combination, perhaps, of white walkers, grayscale, and ghost grass?).  He will conclude that in order to stop the cycle, magic has to be eliminated.  I think the maesters have already figured this out - as many people on this forum have theorized, there is some sort of citadel anti-magic conspiracy.  However the cataclysm of this cycle plays out, the series is going to end with the last remainders of magic (dragons: Dany, Tyrion and Jon; as well as wolves: Arya, Bran and Jon - also the five main characters that GRRM originally planned to survive) will have to leave Westeros a la LOTR/Inheritance and sail across the Sunset Sea (foreshadowed by Arya's curiosity about what lies beyond).  Hence the bittersweet ending.  All the other main characters will probably be dead.

OR this could just be my imagination running away with me and leading to a rambling crackpot prediction not based in fact.

Regardless, I think it's a fair bet that we are not simply reading a re-hash of the cycle.  I think this is where the wheel breaks.  So instead of finding the PARALLELS between the past and current storyline, why don't we focus on what has happened differently this time, to pinpoint how (Bran, probably) is going to get the cycle of cataclysm/rebirth to end with a 'dream of spring.' If, as many of you have suggested, the cycle is now moving in reverse, did Bran have something to do with this?  What initiated the reversal?  Summerhall?  Did Bran have something to do with Summerhall?

I think the parallels are meant to catch our attention, but it's meant to lead us towards realizing that the end results are inversions...the reverse of what happened before. For example, I believe Euron and Victarion are reliving the lives of Bloodraven and Bittersteel, only instead of being enemies they are united in purpose. That is why I worry that they will succeed in taking Westeros. It will be as if the Blackfyres have dragons.

7 hours ago, Seams said:

I was just looking at mentions of frogs and frogeaters in the text for something I wanted to post on the Puns and Wordplay thread. (Long story short: I think there is a pun with frogeaters and forgetters, so people who eat frogs are remembering something.) One of the mentions of frogs comes in a description of herons, birds that eat frogs. I thought this might have something to do with Harrenhal and foreshadowing. Janos Slynt is consistently described as frog-faced, and he is executed by Lord Commander Jon Snow. Quentyn Martell is nicknamed Frog, and he dies trying to bond with Dany's green-scaled dragon named Rhaegal. Maybe these frog-eater/killer scenes, particularly when they involve dragons, are all foreshadowing for the event you foresee at Harrenhal. (Note: Meera carries a trident, like the river where Rhaegar died, and she wears a vest made with bronze scales.)

Another thought on the King in the North not kneeling: In addition to the clear parallels in the scene with Theon kneeling before Aeron, the refusing to kneel could be Sansa at her marriage to Tyrion. That takes place before the Iron Throne. Accepting the cloak symbolizes submission by the wife and protection from the husband, sort of like bending the knee to a conquering king. Sansa saves Sandor's bloody cloak, of course, and soon receives a cloak she does not need - because she is already wearing her own cloak - from Littlefinger, when she boards his waiting ship after escaping the wedding reception. Instead of Sansa kneeling, Tyrion steps on the back of crouched-down Ser Dontos, a knight, a fool, an alcoholic, a conspirator and a former child who was spared from the death penalty (much the way that Ned asked Robert to spare Dany).

Maybe Sansa is the Stark that would not kneel? I like both of your suggestions...Sansa and Theon, but I will need to study the order of occurrence to see which happened first. Maybe it's not a true reversal of time, but an unraveling? Like pulling a thread.

4 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@WightWalker sorry my post went a bit weird, I can't recall Dany ever saying break the wheel in the books. While I can't rule out GRRM agreed they could insert it into that other world we see on the TV as a quirky clue I'd rather not even ponder it. 

Lets keep the show stuff out of here please mate. Welcome though! 

I do recall her saying this on the mummer's version. Will have to do a search of the text to see if its' mentioned there too. There are other passages that suggest a wheel of time: 

The Kraken’s Daughter
Asha asks her uncle to lend her his history book so she can read about the last kingsmoot, and Rodrik frowns and says 

“Archmaester Rigney once wrote that history is a wheel, for the nature of man is fundamentally unchanging. What has happened before will perforce happen again.” 

Rodrik says he thinks about what Rigney said whenever he thinks about Euron and how much he’s like Urron Greyiron, the man that butchered his way to the top at the last kingsmoot.

The Soiled Knight
Arianne brings up House Toland of Ghost Hill whose sigil is a dragon eating it's own tail. 

“The dragon is time. It has no beginning and no ending, so all things come round again. Anders Yronwood is Criston Cole reborn."

The mention of Archmaester Rigney is a reference to Robert Jordan, author of the Wheel of Time book series. Robert Jordan is a pen name. His real name is James Oliver Rigney Jr.

[Macgregor of the North]

8 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I I do recall her saying this on the mummer's version. Will have to do a search of the text to see if its' mentioned there too. There are other passages that suggest a wheel of time: 

The Kraken’s Daughter
Asha asks her uncle to lend her his history book so she can read about the last kingsmoot, and Rodrik frowns and says 

“Archmaester Rigney once wrote that history is a wheel, for the nature of man is fundamentally unchanging. What has happened before will perforce happen again.” 

Rodrik says he thinks about what Rigney said whenever he thinks about Euron and how much he’s like Urron Greyiron, the man that butchered his way to the top at the last kingsmoot.

The Soiled Knight
Arianne brings up House Toland of Ghost Hill whose sigil is a dragon eating it's own tail. 

“The dragon is time. It has no beginning and no ending, so all things come round again. Anders Yronwood is Criston Cole reborn."

The mummers version lol I like that. 

I checked the text she never says it, Infact nobody ever says it in the books in that particular phrasing.

I may seem like I'm being picky, I'm not folks I just don't want us crossing between the two different versions of the story and applying quotes to our work here from that version because that may become common practice and effect other discussions. Apart from that though the post was great and I welcome WightWalker wholeheartedly to continue posting up. 

[Macgregor of the North]

9 hours ago, WightWalker said:

 

[Macgregor of the North]

@WightWalker

My quoting has went constantly weird with your post mate, apologies indeed.

I agree that this cycle, our story, needs to end differently and that people see/or will see that magic has got to go, or men's merging with magic. It seems that this always upsets everything and the only way to change things is to make it as it never happens. 

Bran is an integral part of this and his part as Brandon the builder this time round, instead of re building the Wall and WF etc to do it all again, will be to change things so drastically that instead of a rebuild process and new cycle, there may just be a new beginning(the wheel broken)- a world with no magic(or humans merged with magic). 

I think this may include the death of Bran and the extinction of House Stark. 

Bittersweet.

Also, the LOTR sailing into the west idea was an interesting idea, I'd never saw that mentioned before. Although I think GRRM may see that as too much of a direct similarity to Tolkiens work, could be wrong though.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

The mummers version lol I like that. 

I checked the text she never says it, Infact nobody ever says it in the books in that particular phrasing.

I may seem like I'm being picky, I'm not folks I just don't want us crossing between the two different versions of the story and applying quotes to our work here from that version because that may become common practice and effect other discussions. Apart from that though the post was great and I welcome WightWalker wholeheartedly to continue posting up. 

I'd like to take credit for naming the show the mummer's version, but that honor goes to Black Crow of Heresy.

We do have to keep show discussion out of our book discussions, because that's actually a rule on this forum and could lead to a thread being locked. It seems like a silly rule to me, but none the less, the mods are watching.

42 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@WightWalker

My quoting has went constantly weird with your post mate, apologies indeed.

I agree that this cycle, our story, needs to end differently and that people see/or will see that magic has got to go, or men's merging with magic. It seems that this always upsets everything and the only way to change things is to make it as it never happens. 

Bran is an integral part of this and his part as Brandon the builder this time round, instead of re building the Wall and WF etc to do it all again, will be to change things so drastically that instead of a rebuild process and new cycle, there may just be a new beginning(the wheel broken)- a world with no magic(or humans merged with magic). 

I think this may include the death of Bran and the extinction of House Stark. 

Bittersweet.

Also, the LOTR sailing into the west idea was an interesting idea, I'd never saw that mentioned before. Although I think GRRM may see that as too much of a direct similarity to Tolkiens work, could be wrong though.

If the wheel of time is moving in reverse, then Bran will be Bran the Unbuilder...or Bran the Breaker of the Wall, but he is building the future by disassembling and reversing the past, and to do that he has to learn what DID happen in the past and try to discern what would happen in future if he were to reverse something.

[WightWalker]

7 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@WightWalker sorry my post went a bit weird, I can't recall Dany ever saying break the wheel in the books. While I can't rule out GRRM agreed they could insert it into that other world we see on the TV as a quirky clue I'd rather not even ponder it. 

Lets keep the show stuff out of here please mate. Welcome though! 

My apologies.  It's gotten to the point where the show and the books start to bleed together in my head, you know?  I thought I'd read it in the books but you know how our memory plays its tricks on us.  I'm rereading the books at the moment but I'm still on Game of Thrones.  Thematically, though, the point still stands in my mind; an end to the cycle, a break in a pattern, rather than repetitions of past events.

[Macgregor of the North]

56 minutes ago, WightWalker said:

My apologies.  It's gotten to the point where the show and the books start to bleed together in my head, you know?  I thought I'd read it in the books but you know how our memory plays its tricks on us.  I'm rereading the books at the moment but I'm still on Game of Thrones.  Thematically, though, the point still stands in my mind; an end to the cycle, a break in a pattern, rather than repetitions of past events.

All good mate, certainly easily done, sorry to sound like the forum police lol.

Im with you. I think that there have been repetitions in the past though, and our Bran or 'a' Bran/Brandon Stark in past time loops has grown up to become Brandon the builder and helped build the wall, WF etc in preparation for the same cycle again, and in possibly another timeloop told Durran how to build Storms end etc etc., but this time round, there has to be a difference. 

Brandon the builders actions this time round though, should be totally different for a different outcome, a breaking of the wheel of you like.

[Seams]

@Feather Crystal - I was looking for some other things in the search site and I got an inkling that references to wheels of cheese might actually be references to the wheel of time. I may be wrong; I haven't explored it systematically. Just fwiw.

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Seams said:

@Feather Crystal - I was looking for some other things in the search site and I got an inkling that references to wheels of cheese might actually be references to the wheel of time. I may be wrong; I haven't explored it systematically. Just fwiw.

It may. Depends upon the context 

[Macgregor of the North]

Hey @Cowboy Dan. No probs mate it's all good. 

On the magic thing, hmmm, how about an end to man merging with magic then, and not a final end to magic in the world. If that's even possible in GRRMS world as the magic seems to be rooted so deep in the world. 

What about a break from the race of men merging with magic, and the extinction of certain bloodlines of men who have done this(merged with magic).

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Cowboy Dan said:

@WightWalker @Macgregor of the North 

My bad. I originally brought the "break the wheel" talk into the thread but no one quoted me. I did a Daenerys read recently (but apparently not THAT recently) and could've sworn she says something about the cycle of different houses trying to take the throne and stopping it. I can't seem to find the line now and I was probably just misremembering things. Whoops..

@Feather Crystal and anyone else who wants to take a shot: What makes you think magic will end? Everyone seems pretty on board with the removal of magic but I always felt that was a little too much of direct lifting from Tolkien for my taste. I always thought that Jojen had the right of it when he said that "every song must have it's balance." As I pointed out earlier, many magic users are connected to song or are singers (spellsingers for instance) and destruction or banishment of magic seems like the opposite of a balance, more like leaving it in ruin. Seasons are supposed to even out again and those seem related to magic too, so a balance seems like a solid possibility.

 

Also an off topic question for FC: do you think there can be inversions that aren't separated by large spans of time? I ask because I just finished Davos' last ASOS chapter and I noticed a bunch of similarities to Ned at the end of AGOT. Cersei, a woman acting with the power of the king, is passing off bastards as her own and doesn't have sex with the king while that king openly has bastards elsewhere. Stannis has a trueborn daughter with his queen but is secretly having sex with Melisandre (who gives him a shadow baby as opposed to the golden sun-haired kids Cersei has), who like Cersei, also acts with the power of the king. Davos claims loyalty to his king while serving as Hand but commits treason by saving the bastard child, sending him west to Westeros, and saves himself with a paper shield in the form of a letter from NW. Ned offers Cersei the chance to flee East across the Narrow Sea with her bastards but she refuses. He claims loyalty to his dead king, attempting to depose (which would lead to the deaths of the children under law) Cersei by bringing justice with a paper shield, which condemns him to death. Is this a proper use of inversion or am I looking at my second strike?

The reason why I think magic has to come to an end is because I don't think humans will ever be able to utilize it without becoming corrupted by it's power. It's just a theory of course, because we don't know what will happen in the end until it's written, but I've been working on this inversion/wheel of time theory for the last six months and it seems like Westeros is working towards a return to a time before the First Men arrived. When there were no humans in Westeros did the Children even work magic? Was there a need? I think the Children were the ones to begin using magic as a weapon, because they felt they had to.

The inversions you've found are certainly legit. My thoughts are that all the inversions are deliberate, but not all are evidence that the wheel is turning in reverse. Some are there just to catch our attention and for us to wonder about. How else to bring the wheel of time to the reader's attention without spelling it out as obviously as Robert Jordan has done with his books? I think GRRM wants to utilize the wheel of time in his story, but it may not be anything any of the characters refer to or explain. I think it'll just be for the readers to wonder about and work out on our own. Of course, I am hoping Bran says something about it!

[Macgregor of the North]

11 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

When there were no humans in Westeros did the Children even work magic? Was there a need? I think the Children were the ones to begin using magic as a weapon, because they felt they had to.

 

Certainly. The children's very being is magical I think. And it's said they were carving faces in the trees before the first men came, which we know is for a magical purpose.

[Melifeather]

14 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Certainly. The children's very being is magical I think. And it's said they were carving faces in the trees before the first men came, which we know is for a magical purpose.

Are we sure it was for magical purposes? The Children believe(d) that when they died they would join the godhead. By carving faces with eyes in the trees it would be like asking the godhead to watch out for them. I don't know that they expected anything more than that.

[Macgregor of the North]

52 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Are we sure it was for magical purposes? The Children believe(d) that when they died they would join the godhead. By carving faces with eyes in the trees it would be like asking the godhead to watch out for them. I don't know that they expected anything more than that.

It's just my personal belief that the CoTf were indulging in magical practices such as greenseeing(which was primarily a CoTf thing) etc and all the magical things associated with their Weirwood groves long before the first men came and begun to mess things up. 

I'm wondering if the problem lies with things like the pact and merging of the first men with the children's magic and gods etc.

 

[Melifeather]

20 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

It's just my personal belief that the CoTf were indulging in magical practices such as greenseeing(which was primarily a CoTf thing) etc and all the magical things associated with their Weirwood groves long before the first men came and begun to mess things up. 

I'm wondering if the problem lies with things like the pact and merging of the first men with the children's magic and gods etc.

 

I was discussing on another thread the details surrounding the Wall that may change our theories about what Bran may be up to.

If it's true that the First Men were turned into white walkers by the Children as a way to fight back against the Andal invasion, then the Wall may have also been a defensive structure meant to keep Andals out.

If the above is true, then we should view the Night's King and Bael the Bard story through that lens. 

What if the Night's King was the father of a bastard that was legitimized and became the Lord of Winterfell? Ygritte told Jon that his was an evil name. Could it be that the bastard of Winterfell that killed his father was the same retelling of the Night's King story, only from the point of view of the descendants of the Night's King's followers that would not kneel to the new legitimized Lord? 

What interests me now is how Ramsay Snow/Bolton may reprise the bastard of Winterfell story and kill his father, Roose Bolton who is technically the Lord of Winterfell and whose eyes are like dirty chips of ice which may symbolize the Night's King. Add to this Jon Snow who may or may not be dead at the end of ADWD, but who was on his way to Winterfell as the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. It's the same story only the players are a bit mixed up. Is this mixup Bran's doing?