Missing Valyrian Steel Swords

[House Beaudreau]

There are a couple of missing swords that I am wondering about and what significance they will play.  I really focus on two swords in particular, Blackfyre and Dark sister. 

My best guess it that the Golden company has Blackfyre but they don't want to give it to Young Aegon till he sits the Iron Throne for fear that he will be named a Blackfyre and lose support from lords and commons.( this argument leaves out if Aegon really is a Blackfyre or not, just whats happening with the sword). Aegon getting the sword would be neat because the original Aegon wielded the same blade but I think Aegon ever getting the sword is unlikely, meaning someone else will eventually use it maybe Connington or Arianne? 

Dark sister was last know to be used by Bloodraven, It is unknown if he brought it to the wall with him. If he still has it with him it seems like an awesome chance for Hodor wielding it through Brans warging.    

What do you think about these missing blades or any of the unknown Valyrian steel like Brightroar  or Lamentation? Where will they end up? who wields them? 

[Seams]

Have you explored this thread at all?

Maybe people are ready for a new thread, but there are 12,000 views of this previous discussion, so the subject may be played out for the moment. It's worth a shot, though.

[Curled Finger]

@Seams, thanks it's a great discussion.  But I get bored reading through old stuff too so let's open it up again.  @House Beaudreau, I can't get enough of swords discussion.  You've opened many doors too.  Let me ask you first, what you think has happened to Lamentation.  That's a heated place to start.  Do you think we will see all or most of the missing swords (about half of the named swords that is)?  If so to what end or reason?    

The swords were honestly the hook into the story for me.  I like the swords a lot more than 99% of the characters.  They are the only thing that prompted my 1st reread and I've never been disappointed.  What interests you about them?

[aryagonnakill#2]

14 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

@Seams, thanks it's a great discussion.  But I get bored reading through old stuff too so let's open it up again.  @House Beaudreau, I can't get enough of swords discussion.  You've opened many doors too.  Let me ask you first, what you think has happened to Lamentation.  That's a heated place to start.  Do you think we will see all or most of the missing swords (about half of the named swords that is)?  If so to what end or reason?    

The swords were honestly the hook into the story for me.  I like the swords a lot more than 99% of the characters.  They are the only thing that prompted my 1st reread and I've never been disappointed.  What interests you about them?

Was Lamentation the Royce blade lost when the Dragon pit was stormed?  What are the theories, I've no idea?

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Was Lamentation the Royce blade lost when the Dragon pit was stormed?  What are the theories, I've no idea?

Yep that's the 1. Lots of people believe Lamentation was destroyed in the pits.  Just as many believe it somehow survived.  A 2nd Valyrian Steel sword showed up in the dragon pits too.  I will provide the quote from TPATQ when I'm at a real computer at home tonight.  For the sake of disclosure I believe Lamentation was destroyed and think I can defend the position at least to my own satisfaction.  You've offered lots of excellent real world stuff up about swords.  I'm eager to read whatever you hAve to bring to the table.  The last excellent point you made tthat I saw was regarding the strength or hadress of a blade.  Knowing what you do, do you think a VS blade could survive th er dragon pits?

[aryagonnakill#2]

19 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Yep that's the 1. Lots of people believe Lamentation was destroyed in the pits.  Just as many believe it somehow survived.  A 2nd Valyrian Steel sword showed up in the dragon pits too.  I will provide the quote from TPATQ when I'm at a real computer at home tonight.  For the sake of disclosure I believe Lamentation was destroyed and think I can defend the position at least to my own satisfaction.  You've offered lots of excellent real world stuff up about swords.  I'm eager to read whatever you hAve to bring to the table.  The last excellent point you made tthat I saw was regarding the strength or hadress of a blade.  Knowing what you do, do you think a VS blade could survive th er dragon pits?

Well I do believe the swords are forged in dragon flame, so if there is a place it can be destroyed I believe the pit qualifies.  That being said destroying a regular sword beyond recognition is no simple task, to do it to a magical sword sounds like a stretch to me.  A regular sword could be snapped in half by a dragon or some falling stone, but I have to assume a VS sword could not, and a sword snapped in half could still be reforged or at least identified.  So the only way to truly destroy it would be to heat the metal up to the point that it fully melted.  That would take a considerable amount of direct flame.  A forge would take a minimum of half an hour, how long it would take a dragon is anyones guess.  I guess I'd have to go with a theory that it is either still buried there or that some random person or perhaps a maester picked it up.

What was the other sword in there?

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Well I do believe the swords are forged in dragon flame, so if there is a place it can be destroyed I believe the pit qualifies.  That being said destroying a regular sword beyond recognition is no simple task, to do it to a magical sword sounds like a stretch to me.  A regular sword could be snapped in half by a dragon or some falling stone, but I have to assume a VS sword could not, and a sword snapped in half could still be reforged or at least identified.  So the only way to truly destroy it would be to heat the metal up to the point that it fully melted.  That would take a considerable amount of direct flame.  A forge would take a minimum of half an hour, how long it would take a dragon is anyones guess.  I guess I'd have to go with a theory that it is either still buried there or that some random person or perhaps a maester picked it up.

What was the other sword in there?

I'm so sorry, I got tied up last night.  the 2nd sword isn't named, but there is mention of a Ser Warrick Wheatley or Wheaton taking the wing off a dragon with A valyrian sword.  Not HIS valyrian sword, but a valyrian sword.  I really will post the text tonight, but if you're rushed for it we did quote it directly in the old let's find the swords thread.  

GOOD points about possible destruction  of swords.   I love it when you bring real world facts to the story.  This is important.   I figure if synthetic dragon fire in the form of wildfyre is hot enough to "melt" Ice for reforge,  real dragon fire of 2 or 3 dragons in the pit had to be sufficient to pretty much incinerate Lamentation.  That is essentially the same logic you used and I think it's fair either way.   

I find there is a math to the swords which plays no small part in my thinking Lamentation was destroyed.  It is, like Brightroar, listed as "lost".  However, the world book lists Lamentation among the dead.   I will bring that text in tonight too, tenuous as it seems. Maybe one of our English language specialist will weigh in on the listing importance or lack thereof.  

[Pain killer Jane]

I would like to know where Truth is located currently. It belonged to Moredo Rogare brother of Larra Rogare. She was the mother of Aegon IV and wife to Viserys II Targaryen. Plus their uncle was married to the sitting Princess of Dorne around the same time Larra was married to Viserys. 

And I want to know where Vigilance as the last known member to carry the sword was killed during the Dance by Rody and his Winter Wolves. I personally don't think they have it because one of the finest knights, Ser Gerold Hightower did not possess the sword but that could be because he wasn't the lord. 

[Curled Finger]

12 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Well I do believe the swords are forged in dragon flame, so if there is a place it can be destroyed I believe the pit qualifies.  That being said destroying a regular sword beyond recognition is no simple task, to do it to a magical sword sounds like a stretch to me.  A regular sword could be snapped in half by a dragon or some falling stone, but I have to assume a VS sword could not, and a sword snapped in half could still be reforged or at least identified.  So the only way to truly destroy it would be to heat the metal up to the point that it fully melted.  That would take a considerable amount of direct flame.  A forge would take a minimum of half an hour, how long it would take a dragon is anyones guess.  I guess I'd have to go with a theory that it is either still buried there or that some random person or perhaps a maester picked it up.

What was the other sword in there?

As promised, here is the quote about the 2nd sword at the Dragon Pits:

Others relate how a knight named Ser Warrick Wheaton slashed a wing from Syrax with a Valyrian steel sword. A crossbowman named Bean would claim the kill afterward, boasting of it in many a wine sink and tavern, until one of the queen’s loyalists grew tired of his wagging tongue and cut it out. The truth of the matter no one will ever know—except that Syrax died that night.  TPATQ

In fairness, this could just be one of GRRM's little nods, we found a football player who was on the team he likes with this last name at the time we guess this was written.  Nonetheless, we've got a VS sword sighting at the dragon pits.  And no other mention of this knight or any other Wheaton in any of the books.    I think it's probably Lamentation, but we know at least 1 sword, Orphan-Maker, was lost during the DoD, and haven't seen Vigilance since the 1st battle of Tumbleton.  The only sword I'm certain this one isn't is Dark Sister as it was also lost in the water for a while during the DoD.  Slashing the wing off Syrax couldn't have been a small feat.   I was just listening to Drogo's actions and reactions in Daznak's (sorry, I listen so I'm not really sure how anything is spelled until someone points it out) Pit on the drive home.   Dragons are not sweet and cuddly when under attack.   If this maniac is that close to Syrax, well Dany described being that close to pissed off Drogon as looking into hell.   With the chaos in the pit I could see Syrax turning its full force and power on its attacker.   

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I would like to know where Truth is located currently. It belonged to Moredo Rogare brother of Larra Rogare. She was the mother of Aegon IV and wife to Viserys II Targaryen. Plus their uncle was married to the sitting Princess of Dorne around the same time Larra was married to Viserys. 

And I want to know where Vigilance as the last known member to carry the sword was killed during the Dance by Rody and his Winter Wolves. I personally don't think they have it because one of the finest knights, Ser Gerold Hightower did not possess the sword but that could be because he wasn't the lord. 

I don't suppose that you have an actual date for the marriage between the uncle and princess in Dorne?  I come up with a 5 year variance on this, and that's only based on speculation about Larra and Viserys' wedding date.   I'm working on a timeline for appearances and disappearances for the swords and it's always nice to get closer to the mark.   Good on you for mentioning 2 of the most overlooked named VS swords in the story!  I'm hoping we will be able to verify if Vigilance is indeed with the Hightowers once things get really hopping in Oldtown.   I'll throw Orphan-Maker in with your excellent missing swords and give you an Amen, sister.  

[House Beaudreau]

On 10/26/2016 at 10:32 AM, Curled Finger said:

@Seams, thanks it's a great discussion.  But I get bored reading through old stuff too so let's open it up again.  @House Beaudreau, I can't get enough of swords discussion.  You've opened many doors too.  Let me ask you first, what you think has happened to Lamentation.  That's a heated place to start.  Do you think we will see all or most of the missing swords (about half of the named swords that is)?  If so to what end or reason?    

The swords were honestly the hook into the story for me.  I like the swords a lot more than 99% of the characters.  They are the only thing that prompted my 1st reread and I've never been disappointed.  What interests you about them?

Lamentation is a tricky one. Surely someone would have found it in the aftermath of the dragon pit. I have always kind of had a theory that the Shepherd made off with Lamentation and gave to the the Faith. that this sword is now a sacred secret relic because it slayed the dragons and the hold it down in the vaults should dragons ever return... but having it wind up in the high sparrow's hands would be something i could see happening. but it might have been melted. 

 

[Curled Finger]

Just now, House Beaudreau said:

Lamentation is a tricky one. Surely someone would have found it in the aftermath of the dragon pit. I have always kind of had a theory that the Shepherd made off with Lamentation and gave to the the Faith. that this sword is now a sacred secret relic because it slayed the dragons and the hold it down in the vaults should dragons ever return... but having it wind up in the high sparrow's hands would be something i could see happening. but it might have been melted. 

 

Very cool thinking.  I find myself in the minority about Lamentation's fate again.   Why the High Sparrow?   Does this play into some endgame you see?   Personally, I think 12 of the 15 swords will all appear and there will be something of a reenactment of The Last Hero's quest.   That's just me though and the math plays a large role in my thinking.   What do you see these named Valyrian Swords are in the story for?   To bring it back to your original post, what purpose are Dark Sister and Blackfyre (even Truth, maybe, if we're going to Targ swords?) to serve?  You mentioned Hodor could kick some Other butt with Dark Sister.   Could be, but I'm thinking Meera may actually hold DS for a while as it is a slim blade, made for a woman's hand.   Hodor is a hulk, he could swing a greatsword like Heartsbane or Ice or Brightroar with no problem at all.   A lovely blade like DS is almost wasted on a more rare humongous man who could do one of the big swords some real justice.   Again, that's just my thinking as there are plenty of people who will say DS is wasted on Meera as she has no real skill with a sword.  Hence my bet hedging with Meera will hold DS for a while.   Then to Blackfyre, the Targaryan Sword of Kings (and rebels or pretenders).  Blackfyre seems to be in that revered place with Dawn, that only certain types of people may wield it.   As far as we know it's only a longsword, but may well be a bastard sword with that 1.5 hands pommel.  As a regular longsword Jon Con could absolutely swing it and do damage, but could Arianne?  She's no Brienne.   That said, supposing Aegon gets it and dies.   Then what do you do with the Targaryan Sword of Kings that neither Tyrion nor Dany are likely to be able to wield?   And yes, I'm absolutely picking your brain here.   I've got my list of what 29 potential companions and only 12 swords to go around.   I believe I've really settled on 4 hero companions so there is still much work to do.   

[Pain killer Jane]

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

don't suppose that you have an actual date for the marriage between the uncle and princess in Dorne?

Larra returned back to Lys in 139, the year after Nearys was born and Larra died in 145. We are told that Larra and Moredo escaped execution after their brother Lysaro was killed and that didn't happen till after their father and uncle died. And we know that she and her brothers were in Kingslanding in 135 because she had married Viserys in 134. So the uncle and the princess of Dorne would have been married around the same as Larra and Viserys as the uncle and the father died within days of each other in the years between 139-145. Long story short no I don't have a date for you. 

I think it is interesting that Aegon IV would have been first or second cousin to the sitting Prince or Princess of Dorne if Aliandra and his uncle had children when Daeron, the young dragon attacked Dorne. 

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I'll throw Orphan-Maker in with your excellent missing swords and give you an Amen, sister.  

Yeah that is another one. Because he was killed by Hugh Hammer's men in a ten against one fight, I doubt any of those guys would have returned a VS sword even if they could never parade it out openly. It would be like a rl person owning a Picasso that was stolen from a museum; merely possessing it would give them a high. And it wouldn't be the situation of Red Rain possibly belonging to House Reyne because nobody questions that because A) Ironmen B. House Reyne is extant and C. Ironmen. And it disappeared in the Reach and someone would have noticed some random dude running around with a sword that has a purely black blade and is VS. 

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Good on you for mentioning 2 of the most overlooked named VS swords in the story!

Thank you and thanks for starting this thread for new ideas. 

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

 I'm hoping we will be able to verify if Vigilance is indeed with the Hightowers once things get really hopping in Oldtown.  

Yes that I can't wait for that. I am also hoping to see the Mad Maid. I am also hoping that Vigilance is in the hands of Baelor Hightower. Brightsmile running around with a VS weapon. Invoking both Aerion Brightflame and the Smiling Knight. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

14 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

As promised, here is the quote about the 2nd sword at the Dragon Pits:

Others relate how a knight named Ser Warrick Wheaton slashed a wing from Syrax with a Valyrian steel sword. A crossbowman named Bean would claim the kill afterward, boasting of it in many a wine sink and tavern, until one of the queen’s loyalists grew tired of his wagging tongue and cut it out. The truth of the matter no one will ever know—except that Syrax died that night.  TPATQ

In fairness, this could just be one of GRRM's little nods, we found a football player who was on the team he likes with this last name at the time we guess this was written.  Nonetheless, we've got a VS sword sighting at the dragon pits.  And no other mention of this knight or any other Wheaton in any of the books.    I think it's probably Lamentation, but we know at least 1 sword, Orphan-Maker, was lost during the DoD, and haven't seen Vigilance since the 1st battle of Tumbleton.  The only sword I'm certain this one isn't is Dark Sister as it was also lost in the water for a while during the DoD.  Slashing the wing off Syrax couldn't have been a small feat.   I was just listening to Drogo's actions and reactions in Daznak's (sorry, I listen so I'm not really sure how anything is spelled until someone points it out) Pit on the drive home.   Dragons are not sweet and cuddly when under attack.   If this maniac is that close to Syrax, well Dany described being that close to pissed off Drogon as looking into hell.   With the chaos in the pit I could see Syrax turning its full force and power on its attacker.   

I think it could go either way, it's fair to say there was a lot of dragon fire around and it could've happened, or that someone found it in the aftermath and stored it or sold it in Essos.

Orphan maker definitely got brought to Essos.

[Curled Finger]

9 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I think it could go either way, it's fair to say there was a lot of dragon fire around and it could've happened, or that someone found it in the aftermath and stored it or sold it in Essos.

Orphan maker definitely got brought to Essos.

OK, I went back to the scene in TPATQ where Bold Jon Roxton was killed and even read the locked topic where this was mentioned before, but I'm still unclear how you can be certain that Hugh the Hammer's men were sell swords or that Orphan-Maker left Westeros?  I miss plenty in listening to the books instead of reading, so help me out here? 

[Curled Finger]

20 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Larra returned back to Lys in 139, the year after Nearys was born and Larra died in 145. We are told that Larra and Moredo escaped execution after their brother Lysaro was killed and that didn't happen till after their father and uncle died. And we know that she and her brothers were in Kingslanding in 135 because she had married Viserys in 134. So the uncle and the princess of Dorne would have been married around the same as Larra and Viserys as the uncle and the father died within days of each other in the years between 139-145. Long story short no I don't have a date for you. 

I think it is interesting that Aegon IV would have been first or second cousin to the sitting Prince or Princess of Dorne if Aliandra and his uncle had children when Daeron, the young dragon attacked Dorne. 

Yeah that is another one. Because he was killed by Hugh Hammer's men in a ten against one fight, I doubt any of those guys would have returned a VS sword even if they could never parade it out openly. It would be like a rl person owning a Picasso that was stolen from a museum; merely possessing it would give them a high. And it wouldn't be the situation of Red Rain possibly belonging to House Reyne because nobody questions that because A) Ironmen B. House Reyne is extant and C. Ironmen. And it disappeared in the Reach and someone would have noticed some random dude running around with a sword that has a purely black blade and is VS. 

 

Thanks for the information on our unknowable date for Truth's possible emergence on the scene.  That's basically my time frame as well.  I don't know if House Roxton is extinct or not, but I would sure like to know where Orphan-Maker is and little of its history.   If you ever search Dark Sister you get all these cool quotes about how "she thirsts for blood" and wicked things like that.  (Though I think Lyn Corbray says something very similar about Lady Forlorn now that I think of it).  OM has that black blade Oh Hell Yes and I bet there's a lot more to its history than the slaying of a dragon rider.  As to Red Rain, I had better luck coming up with a decent approximation for Nightfall's appearance as the Reynes just really aren't mentioned much at all outside of their name in that notorious song the Lannisters love to hear.   I hope Red Rain's alleged history with the Reynes isn't a trick, as I came up with little intel on that one as there is no mention of a VS sword in anything I've read about them, the Tarbecks or the uprising in the Westerlands outside of Brightroar.   To the best of my knowledge the only one who got away from all that was a 3 year old boy and he wouldn't be able to hold or hide a sword.  So big old goose egg on Red Rain.   I think we will just have to wait and be happy to see who takes it from the Drumms.   One thing is certain, if the gods are good we will get to see at least Vigilance and Blackfyre early in TWOW as well as a change of owners for Red Rain and Nightfall.   Now if we can get Widow's Wail and Dark Sister in play the party will start.   

[aryagonnakill#2]

On October 28, 2016 at 9:29 PM, Curled Finger said:

OK, I went back to the scene in TPATQ where Bold Jon Roxton was killed and even read the locked topic where this was mentioned before, but I'm still unclear how you can be certain that Hugh the Hammer's men were sell swords or that Orphan-Maker left Westeros?  I miss plenty in listening to the books instead of reading, so help me out here? 

Hugh had no lordship, he was a blacksmith that no highborn would be supporting.  Any of his men would've had to be sellswords and since they killed Jon Roxton his sword was right there for the taking.  But if it were me and I just killed a westerosi lord and was looking to sell his families valyrian steal blade, I'd leave Westeros to do it.

Had the sword gone to a westerosi noble his family would now be known for having a valyrian steal blade.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Hugh had no lordship, he was a blacksmith that no highborn would be supporting.  Any of his men would've had to be sellswords and since they killed Jon Roxton his sword was right there for the taking.  But if it were me and I just killed a westerosi lord and was looking to sell his families valyrian steal blade, I'd leave Westeros to do it.

Had the sword gone to a westerosi noble his family would now be known for having a valyrian steal blade.

That's some fine deduction.  I see where you're coming from now.   There are at least 3 VS swords in Westeros belonging to impoverished families, according to Tyrion as he recounts Tywin's attempts to purchase one.   The Corbrays were impoverished while Tywin was living and a good case can be made for the Mormonts also being considered a poor house.    It's safe to say the Drumms are not the wealthiest family, but I don't think I would go so far as to call them impoverished.   So that leaves at least 1 and possibly 2 VS swords we know are in Westeros but we don't know who they belong to.  I suppose it's possible that OM could have been taken as a spoils of war prize and sold or something to one of those houses, but your sell sword scenario is just as likely.   

In that we have no mention of the Roxtons in ASOIAF at all, do you think they could be extinct now? 

[Pain killer Jane]

On 10/30/2016 at 10:02 AM, Curled Finger said:

The Corbrays were impoverished while Tywin was living and a good case can be made for the Mormonts also being considered a poor house.

Isn't Lady Forlorn supposed to not be a VS sword?

[Curled Finger]

There is a misprint in The World Book.   Lady Forlorn is much like Ice, there was another Lady prior to the Valyrian Steel sword.   There are ancestral Ice & Lady Forlorn then there are the Valyrian Steel replacements named in their honor.   Lady Forlorn is thought to be the same color as Ice, smoky grey.  My cronies and I wonder if they weren't made from the same batch being the last VS swords imported from Valyria.