Did Jaime and Barristan question...

[WeKnowNothing]

42 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Who was this midwife?  We're given zero information on any medical professional being there.  And by the way, she is not given access to the medical care that women of her birth and station would expect - maesters, attendants, etc.  Wylla is the only person we think is there, and there is zero evidence she's a midwife.

Here's the difference; Rhaegar is trying to force out his third head of the dragon.  He doesn't care about Lyanna, really, but he really cares about that baby.  Which is why she's a hostage.  He can't have her wandering off an miscarrying, or going back to Winterfell, where the baby is effectively out of his reach.

Look, if Lyanna isn't a captive, then you have to justify why three of the finest knights in the realm are there "guarding" her.  Each of them is individually far more important than, say, a couple dozen household guards, who together are a better defense for Lyanna from brigands, and less valuable because they aren't experienced commanders the way Dayne and Hightower are, or symbols of the regime.  The only thing that those three have over anyone else, is that they are utterly loyal to Rhaegar and his dynasty.  Loyal enough to be tacitly complicit in the burning of innocents and the repeated assault-and-rapes on Rhaella, so loyal enough to guard the princely side-piece without question.

If Lyanna was a willing participant in all this, then she 100% would not be at the Tower of Joy for childbirth.  She'd be somewhere with better "medical" facilities, with more attendants, with better medical care (a maester, or at least enough women to actually assist instead of just Wylla), instead of locked away at the ass-end of nowhere in Westeros, completely deprived of any outside contact or information about what was going on in the world. 

The KG were there because Lyanna was pregnant, that's why the best guards were protecting her - if she's pregnant, she can't have just average guards guarding the tower. If she wasn't pregnant, there would have been no point for the KG to stay there, as she wasn't important to them. But since she WAS pregnant, she is definitely important, and that's why they stay - they don't stay for Lyanna, but for the unborn child.

Its implied that Rhaegar-Lyanna wanted this pregnancy to be as secret as possible, which means that a castle or somewhere with "better medical facilities" would give the risk that someone would find out she was pregnant. And they wouldnt allow this, as it would put the life of their unborn child in danger. And it's in Ned's POV that "they" found him inside ToJ with Lyanna's body. So more than one person then - one of them being Howland Reed, and the other being Wylla the wetnurse. We know Wylla was Jon's wet nurse, so she was likely sent from Starfall to Lyanna to assist in the birth, and then she later fed Jon once Lyanna was dead. Of course there could be another woman in the tower alongside Wylla, also sent from Starfall.

Lyanna was definitely willing, because she dies begging Ned to take care of Jon, and holding onto the blue rose petals, which were dead once Ned reached there. That doesn't sound anything like she was a rape victim, she wouldnt be holding onto the dead roses and fearing for the child she just gave birth to if she was raped. And if you say Rhagear was just concerned about another head of the dragon and not Lyanna, why would he be giving Lyanna the blue roses that were in the tower? I can't picture any of the KG giving roses to Lyanna, that's not their jobs - so it only could have been Rhaegar, after all he did give her the queen of love and Beauty crown...which were also made of blue roses. Rhaegar's last word was also "Lyanna," which again, doesn't make any sense if he raped her and only cared about another baby.

[cpg2016]

14 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

How were they supposed to find out?  The weir tree network?  They were at an isolated location, Rhaegar died far away from them during battle.  There was no way to know that he died, and even if they did have a messenger come to them and tell them, the King was still alive so orders still stand, and they probably wouldn't just abandon their post if a random messenger told them their liege was dead, they'd want some confirmation.

Lol exactly.  WeKnowNothing seems to think Westeros has free WiFi and universal email access.

15 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

And what was Lyanna so important? The answer, as is often the case in novels, is love.  He loved her, and their relationship was contested by the usurper, and she was pregnant with his heir.  As I've previously stated, since it was common practice to kill all members of the sitting King's family after a coup, he would want the best protection he could afford her given the circumstances.

It isn't love.  Robert isn't contesting Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship, quite the opposite.  Lyanna is betrothed to Robert, and as the term "marriage contract" implies, this is serious business.  Lyonel Baratheon raises arms against the Iron Throne for just such an insult, and apparently is widely considered justified in having done so.

Second, Lyanna is most certainly not pregnant with his heir.  Baby Aegon is his heir.  And as the Great Councils show, in the case of a minor coming to the throne, especially a bastard, it's possible to depose that person in favor of another candidate (in this case Viserys would be the obvious choice).

And third, it is never common practice to kill all members of a sitting dynasty after a coup, which is why it's so outrageous when Tywin orders Elia's kids killed.

[spauldo17]

33 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

It isn't love.  Robert isn't contesting Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship, quite the opposite.  Lyanna is betrothed to Robert, and as the term "marriage contract" implies, this is serious business.  Lyonel Baratheon raises arms against the Iron Throne for just such an insult, and apparently is widely considered justified in having done so.

 

It may not be love from Robert's side but it certainly is from Rhaegar's side.

33 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Second, Lyanna is most certainly not pregnant with his heir.  Baby Aegon is his heir.  And as the Great Councils show, in the case of a minor coming to the throne, especially a bastard, it's possible to depose that person in favor of another candidate (in this case Viserys would be the obvious choice).

By heir I meant more, an offspring of his.  The child won't be first in line for the throne (therefore not the "heir")  but he will be in the line of succession.  This alone makes the child extremely valuable.

33 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

And third, it is never common practice to kill all members of a sitting dynasty after a coup, which is why it's so outrageous when Tywin orders Elia's kids killed.

If you look at history it's actually extremely common.  Whenever a new ruling faction took over a kingdom, they would systematically kill members of the currently reigning family, thus eliminating any threat to the throne.  This wasn't a matter of brutality but rather practicality, since leaving any person alive with connections to the throne can cause that person to gather support and start his own coup.  The Romanov's from Russia were one such example, of which there are many more. 

[WeKnowNothing]

42 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

How were they supposed to find out?  The weir tree network?  They were at an isolated location, Rhaegar died far away from them during battle.  There was no way to know that he died, and even if they did have a messenger come to them and tell them, the King was still alive so orders still stand, and they probably wouldn't just abandon their post if a random messenger told them their liege was dead, they'd want some confirmation.

And what was Lyanna so important? The answer, as is often the case in novels, is love.  He loved her, and their relationship was contested by the usurper, and she was pregnant with his heir.  As I've previously stated, since it was common practice to kill all members of the sitting King's family after a coup, he would want the best protection he could afford her given the circumstances.

I'm not saying they should set up a CSI Westerosi investigation to find out why the KG guarded Lyanna even after Rhaegar was dead. I meant they should have atleast wondered about it, I mean those were the three most respected KGs, especially Hightower and Dayne. 

And love is not a sufficient enough reason as to why a woman should be guarded by the three of the best guards like the KGs. Love for Lyanna wouldn't have been more important than Rhaegar's own life, or the life of any of Rhaegar's children. Love for Lyanna also wouldn't have stopped the KG from going to Viserys as he would have been the new king (if Rhaegar had no surviving sons). Also, Barristan and Jaime wouldn't have known that Lyanna was carrying a heir of Rhaegar's, for them Lyanna was just a woman Rhaegar took and stayed alone with in Dorne. So why was Lyanna so important - she was just some woman after all, right? The KG would have had to abandon her if Viserys was the new heir/King - but they didn't, and they stayed to guard this woman of Rhaegar's instead. My point is, Barristan and Jaime don't ever wonder about why the KG stayed guarding Lyanna, when they could have gone to Viserys instead.

[cpg2016]

47 minutes ago, WeKnowNothing said:

The KG were there because Lyanna was pregnant, that's why the best guards were protecting her - if she's pregnant, she can't have just average guards guarding the tower. If she wasn't pregnant, there would have been no point for the KG to stay there, as she wasn't important to them. But since she WAS pregnant, she is definitely important, and that's why they stay - they don't stay for Lyanna, but for the unborn child.

Wait, why can she not have average guards?  That makes no sense.  Twenty guardsmen are vastly better protection than three knights, no matter how skilled - Ned and six companions manage to break in, after all, and none of them are noted as being particularly prodigious swordsmen (Ned potentially excepted).

There is only one reason for the Kingsguard to be there, and that is because they are unswervingly loyal.  Rhaegar knows he can trust them to keep Lyanna there.  Otherwise, send her to Starfall (which is nearby) and have her give birth in the comfort and security of, you know... an actual castle with medical professionals.  Rhaegar can trust Arthur Dayne & Co to keep Lyanna cooped up.  Again, you have to give a convincing explanation of why a handful of guards wouldn't be equal or better protection.  They are also protecting her and the fetus, of course, but part and parcel of that is preventing her from leaving, even when she was physically capable of it.  She isn't allowed to go to Winterfell to have her child; she's a prisoner.

51 minutes ago, WeKnowNothing said:

Its implied that Rhaegar-Lyanna wanted this pregnancy to be as secret as possible, which means that a castle or somewhere with "better medical facilities" would give the risk that someone would find out she was pregnant.

But this makes no sense at all.  They are having a child.  What could be more public?  Unless you assume Lyanna will spend her entire life at the Tower of Joy (e.g. a prisoner), the truth will get out.  There is literally zero implication that either of them want the pregnancy to be "secret".  What Rhaegar wants is the location to be secret.  Again, pregnancies are only secret when they're shameful, and if Lyanna is a willing participant, and Rhaegar is excited for the child (which he is, because of the prophecy), then what is there to be ashamed of, except the whole "breaking the Baratheon betrothal" aspect, which is spilled milk anyway at this point.

Again, Rhaegar doesn't want anyone finding Lyanna before she gives birth.  That's all we know.  We have literally no information on what Lyanna wants, but the circumstantial evidence all points to her being unable to leave the Tower of Joy.  Which makes her a prisoner in fact if not name.

55 minutes ago, WeKnowNothing said:

And it's in Ned's POV that "they" found him inside ToJ with Lyanna's body. So more than one person then - one of them being Howland Reed, and the other being Wylla the wetnurse. We know Wylla was Jon's wet nurse, so she was likely sent from Starfall to Lyanna to assist in the birth, and then she later fed Jon once Lyanna was dead. Of course there could be another woman in the tower alongside Wylla, also sent from Starfall.

"Could be" does not equal "is".  All we can strongly suspect is that Wylla was there, who isn't a midwife.  Since Rhaegar wants secrecy, the probabilities say that fewer, not more, people were at the ToJ.  But none of this answers the essential question, which is whether Lyanna was a prisoner.  The answer has to be yes; she was kept in an under-staffed tower in the middle of nowhere instead of the comfort of literally any castle, which means she isn't allowed to leave.

 

57 minutes ago, WeKnowNothing said:

Lyanna was definitely willing, because she dies begging Ned to take care of Jon, and holding onto the blue rose petals, which were dead once Ned reached there. That doesn't sound anything like she was a rape victim, she wouldnt be holding onto the dead roses and fearing for the child she just gave birth to if she was raped

How does that logic work, at all?  She can easily love her child despite it's method of conception.  If she was begging Ned to spare Rhaegar, that would be convincing.  She wants her son to live, and not be killed by a vengeful Robert.  Pretty easy motivation.

 

58 minutes ago, WeKnowNothing said:

And if you say Rhagear was just concerned about another head of the dragon and not Lyanna, why would he be giving Lyanna the blue roses that were in the tower?

He didn't.  It's nearly impossible.  Rhaegar had left months and months beforehand, so it's not possible he had given her said roses.  Possibly, one of the KG at the tower did, or Wylla brought them.  

 

59 minutes ago, WeKnowNothing said:

Rhaegar's last word was also "Lyanna," which again, doesn't make any sense if he raped her and only cared about another baby.

Do you understand what "rape" is?  Rhaegar might love Lyanna with every fibre of his being, but it's still rape if he carries her off at swordpoint and keeps her an isolated prisoner in a tower at the far end of nowhere.  Hell, he might have come to care for her while holding her captive, and she him; Stockholm Syndrome is real enough.  But that doesn't mean the actual abduction didn't happen, and sex under duress is still rape.

 

1 hour ago, WeKnowNothing said:

I can't picture any of the KG giving roses to Lyanna, that's not their jobs - so it only could have been Rhaegar, after all he did give her the queen of love and Beauty crown...which were also made of blue roses.

I'm not sure why you can't picture this.  Those men are all depicted as being fundamentally decent, chivalrous knights and men.  Or at least that is their self-conception.  Why wouldn't they give the woman they are gently imprisoning something to brighten her day?  Unless these blue roses never die, it's not physically possible for Rhaegar to have given them to Lyanna.  It had to be someone local.

And yes, Rhaegar gives Lyanna the crown - he's trying to seduce her, which is an outrage in and of itself, as the text makes clear.  It's relatively common knowledge that Lyanna loves those flowers, this isn't something only Rhaegar knows.

[spauldo17]

7 minutes ago, WeKnowNothing said:

I'm not saying they should set up a CSI Westerosi investigation to find out why the KG guarded Lyanna even after Rhaegar was dead. I meant they should have atleast wondered about it, I mean those were the three most respected KGs, especially Hightower and Dayne. 

And love is not a sufficient enough reason as to why a woman should be guarded by the three of the best guards like the KGs. Love for Lyanna wouldn't have been more important than Rhaegar's own life, or the life of any of Rhaegar's children. Love for Lyanna also wouldn't have stopped the KG from going to Viserys as he would have been the new king (if Rhaegar had no surviving sons). Also, Barristan and Jaime wouldn't have known that Lyanna was carrying a heir of Rhaegar's, for them Lyanna was just a woman Rhaegar took and stayed alone with in Dorne. So why was Lyanna so important - she was just some woman after all, right? The KG would have had to abandon her if Viserys was the new heir/King - but they didn't, and they stayed to guard this woman of Rhaegar's instead. My point is, Barristan and Jaime don't ever wonder about why the KG stayed guarding Lyanna, when they could have gone to Viserys instead.

I don't think you can make it a black and white situation  saying that leaving 3 KG at ToJ meant she was more important than his own life.  Those three wouldn't have saved him, he had an army for that, and also he took on Robert in single combat.

They wouldn't have gone to Viserys because they didn't know about Rhaegar's death, and even if they did it doesn't cancel his orders, it was a royal order. And she wasn't just some woman, clearly.  If you need me to tell you that then you haven't read the books thoroughly enough.

[spauldo17]

3 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Wait, why can she not have average guards?  That makes no sense.  Twenty guardsmen are vastly better protection than three knights, no matter how skilled - Ned and six companions manage to break in, after all, and none of them are noted as being particularly prodigious swordsmen (Ned potentially excepted).

 

Because she was carrying his child.  Which is now a member of the Royal Family, not to mention possibly a child of prophesy and untold potential.  Therefore the child now merits Kingsguard protection. Pretty simple.

 

7 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

 

But this makes no sense at all.  They are having a child.  What could be more public?  Unless you assume Lyanna will spend her entire life at the Tower of Joy (e.g. a prisoner), the truth will get out.  There is literally zero implication that either of them want the pregnancy to be "secret".  What Rhaegar wants is the location to be secret.  Again, pregnancies are only secret when they're shameful, and if Lyanna is a willing participant, and Rhaegar is excited for the child (which he is, because of the prophecy), then what is there to be ashamed of, except the whole "breaking the Baratheon betrothal" aspect, which is spilled milk anyway at this point.

 

It does make sense.  A pregnancy is only public if you make it public.  It doesn't even show until a few months in, at that point you can make the decision to keep it hidden, and once she starts showing they move her to a location with fewer prying eyes. Again, pretty simple.

 

9 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

 

"Could be" does not equal "is".  All we can strongly suspect is that Wylla was there, who isn't a midwife.  Since Rhaegar wants secrecy, the probabilities say that fewer, not more, people were at the ToJ.  But none of this answers the essential question, which is whether Lyanna was a prisoner.  The answer has to be yes; she was kept in an under-staffed tower in the middle of nowhere instead of the comfort of literally any castle, which means she isn't allowed to leave.

 

Wylla was a midwife.  She was Jon's midwife so clearly the precedent is there. Being held in the middle of nowhere does in no way imply she wasn't allowed to leave, that's just you making the illogical conclusion on your own.

 

10 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

I'm not sure why you can't picture this.  Those men are all depicted as being fundamentally decent, chivalrous knights and men.  Or at least that is their self-conception.  Why wouldn't they give the woman they are gently imprisoning something to brighten her day?  Unless these blue roses never die, it's not physically possible for Rhaegar to have given them to Lyanna.  It had to be someone local.

And yes, Rhaegar gives Lyanna the crown - he's trying to seduce her, which is an outrage in and of itself, as the text makes clear.  It's relatively common knowledge that Lyanna loves those flowers, this isn't something only Rhaegar knows.

Bringing up the crown of blue roses is smart because it's a literary device.  In books, when things can't just be spelled out, author's use symbolism to tell us things.  The fact that he crowned her with the crown of blue roses, and she later dies clutching these blue roses is not an accident, and it's not just some rogue Kingsguard member who thinks it'd be cute.  It's GRRM telling us this was THEIR thing, together.

 

Honestly it seems to me that you are going out of your way to propose an alternate theory to what is most likely the truth.  Occum's razor applies in this case.  There's no need to dream up some convoluted scenario in which Lyanna was now a rape victim but fell in love due to Stockholm's syndrome, and the blue roses were there but probably from someone else, and rhaegar died saying her name but that's just his delusional rapyness, and everyone says they loved each other but nah it was probably still rape. 

The simple answer is most often the right one.

[Ahl of the House Cutler]

Here's an alternate theory for you....

Lyanna backtracked and took Rhaegar to Winterfell and had Jon (if indeed R+L=J) in the crypts, which is why Jon dreams about them constantly and also why Lyanna was surrounded by BLUE WINTER ROSES ONLY GROWN IN WINTERFELL!.  

IMO, and GRRMs opinion for that matter, is that fever dreams are untrustworthy.  I don't think there was a fight at the Tower of Joy.  I think it was a negotiation.  Or a baby swap.

I mean, why didn't Whent, Hightower and Dayne use the tower to their strategic advantage?  Why meet 7 adversaries out in the open when you have a PERFECTLY GOOD DEFENSIVE POSITION BEHIND YOU??  

Ned's dream was either manipulated by BR or was influenced by m.o.t.p.  

EDIT TO ADD:

Was it ever stated who brought Rickard and Brandon's bones back to Winterfell after their execution?  I only say this because maybe the bones Ned brought back weren't his sisters, but his father and brother.

[TMIFairy]

As amusing as this theory is is, I find a bit morbid. Fucking in the crypts? Eww ...

But the idea of "Jon dreaming of crypts as he had been conceived there" is fucking hilarious!

 

[Ahl of the House Cutler]

14 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

As amusing as this theory is is, I find a bit morbid. Fucking in the crypts? Eww ...

But the idea of "Jon dreaming of crypts as he had been conceived there" is fucking hilarious!

 

I didn't say he was conceived there.  Just born there.

It's basically Bael the Bard 2.0

[cpg2016]

52 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

Because she was carrying his child.  Which is now a member of the Royal Family, not to mention possibly a child of prophesy and untold potential.  Therefore the child now merits Kingsguard protection. Pretty simple.

No, it isn't simple.  You're wrong on a bunch of levels.  First off, baby Jon is emphatically not part of the royal family, he's a bastard.  Hence why he's not at the Red Keep, why the whole abduction thing sparked off a rebellion, all that.

Second, and I can't stress this enough, the Kingsguard are an honor, not a be all and end all of protection.  If Rhaegar truly cares about Lyanna being protected, he'd put her in a strong castle with a hundred men around her.  Not in an isolated tower with three knights.  You are confusing the fact that the KG protect the royal person, with the idea that KG must therefore be the best possible protection.  On a one for one basis that is true, but twenty men are better protection than 3 Kingsguard.  Not to mention, those Kingsguard are very valuable as commanders or generals; depriving the royal cause of their experience may have cost Aerys and Rhaegar their lives.

So again, you have to show me the compelling reason why the KG are needed there, instead of being on the battlefield where they can do more good, and being replaced by a company of men who are better protection anyway.  I say it's because Rhaegar needs men he can trust not to leak her location and spur a rescue attempt, and he knows these men intimately well; Arthur Dayne is his only real friend and confidante.

59 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

It does make sense.  A pregnancy is only public if you make it public.  It doesn't even show until a few months in, at that point you can make the decision to keep it hidden, and once she starts showing they move her to a location with fewer prying eyes. Again, pretty simple.

No, it isn't, because it ends with a baby!  What was the plan with Jon?  I agree with you technically, but you're not thinking through the argument.  A secret pregnancy means the child will be kept secret, too.  If the child is going to become public knowledge, then what the hell is the point of keeping the pregnancy secret?  You gotta think this stuff through to it's logical conclusion.  If Jon is meant to be openly acknowledge as Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, then there is no reason to keep it secret.  If Jon isn't meant to be acknowledged as Rhaegar's bastard, then why keep it secret?  Why not let Lyanna go home to Winterfell?  There isn't any explanation for this, much less a convincing one.

 

1 hour ago, spauldo17 said:

Wylla was a midwife.  She was Jon's midwife so clearly the precedent is there. Being held in the middle of nowhere does in no way imply she wasn't allowed to leave, that's just you making the illogical conclusion on your own.

Wylla is emphatically not a midwife.  She's a wet nurse.

And yes, being held in the middle of nowhere does imply being imprisoned!  You're argument is that Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar and decided that the Tower of Joy was just such a romantic spot, despite literally never having been there, that she had to have her baby there?  That makes no sense.  Lyanna has no reason to keep any of this secret, if she's a willing participant.  Everyone knows she's with Rhaegar, so if she shows up with a baby in tow, everyone will know whose it is.

She's in the middle of nowhere.  She's being deliberately isolated from her family, her friends, anyone who could reasonably be termed a support network.  Her only companions are a wet nurse for the baby, and three armed guards whose loyalty, when push comes to shove, is 100% with Rhaegar, no matter what.  If Rhaegar wants to set her on fire, they're gonna stand by.  If Rhaegar wants to violently rape her, they're gonna stand by.  That is imprisonment!

1 hour ago, spauldo17 said:

Bringing up the crown of blue roses is smart because it's a literary device.  In books, when things can't just be spelled out, author's use symbolism to tell us things.  The fact that he crowned her with the crown of blue roses, and she later dies clutching these blue roses is not an accident, and it's not just some rogue Kingsguard member who thinks it'd be cute.  It's GRRM telling us this was THEIR thing, together.

No, GRRM tells us that the blue roses are Lyanna's thing.  Her love of blue winter roses predated the Tourney at Harrenhal.  He gives them to her not because it's their thing, but because its hers and he's trying to seduce her.  If your girlfriend loves daisies and you give her a bouquet of daisies, it doesn't mean that suddenly daisies are some romantic inside thing between you; she liked the flowers and you got them for her to make her happy.  I don't understand why you think this is something that no one else can know; Rhaegar could have told Arthur Dayne "she likes blue winter roses; do you mind getting a few for her?" or hell, Lyanna might tell them herself!

The roses are not a literary device representing Lyanna, they represent Jon.  So when she dies clutching blue winter roses, it's meant to further tip us off that Jon is her son.  The fandom accepts this so wholly that you've now forgotten what it was initially meant to be and are trying to find another meaning.

1 hour ago, spauldo17 said:

Honestly it seems to me that you are going out of your way to propose an alternate theory to what is most likely the truth.  Occum's razor applies in this case.  There's no need to dream up some convoluted scenario in which Lyanna was now a rape victim but fell in love due to Stockholm's syndrome, and the blue roses were there but probably from someone else, and rhaegar died saying her name but that's just his delusional rapyness, and everyone says they loved each other but nah it was probably still rape. 

I'm not saying she fell in love!  You made that claim, and I'm saying that it happens in the real world that captives fall in love with captors.

I think Lyanna was probably forcibly abducted (maybe not) and certainly imprisoned.  She doesn't and didn't love Rhaegar, as we have literally zero evidence of any feelings on her part for him except that she cried at a sad song he sang that one time.  Sex without consent is rape.  Consent at the point of a sword, is not consent.  All we know for sure is Rhaegar, with an armed guard, accosted Lyanna in the Riverlands, and she went with him to the ass-end of nowhere and a few months later was pregnant.  None of our character witnesses are reliable, so take the facts as they are.  At best, we have to suspect Lyanna's willingness, because the whole thing is done at swordpoint.  At worst, she was violently kidnapped.  So here she is, in the Tower of Joy, with Rhaegar and a handful of knights who are perfectly willing to support Rhaegar with force no matter what he wants to do to her!  How is that not rape?  She has no choice; it's give in or be beaten/killed.  It is literally, and I mean that, literally not possible to give consent in such a situation.  

So again, you have not presented one credible iota of evidence that Lyanna was a willing participant in all this.  At best, she did it under duress.

[cgrav]

45 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

I don't think you can make it a black and white situation  saying that leaving 3 KG at ToJ meant she was more important than his own life.  Those three wouldn't have saved him, he had an army for that, and also he took on Robert in single combat.

They wouldn't have gone to Viserys because they didn't know about Rhaegar's death, and even if they did it doesn't cancel his orders, it was a royal order. And she wasn't just some woman, clearly.  If you need me to tell you that then you haven't read the books thoroughly enough.

 

To the original question, I think the mystery becomes why some KG (or people generally) knew about things happening in Dorne and others didn't.

I'm thinking that Rhaegar chose those three KG specifically as part of his possible coup plot. Dayne was most trusted, Whent's father was part of the tourney scheme, and Hightower stumbled into it when he found Rhaegar at Aerys's order (though it seems like he must have known where to find him). Those three could be trusted to guard a secret royal heir.

[TMIFairy]

24 minutes ago, Ahl of the House Cutler said:

I didn't say he was conceived there.  Just born there.

It's basically Bael the Bard 2.0

So I misunderstood ... would not be the first time

[cgrav]

23 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

 

So again, you have not presented one credible iota of evidence that Lyanna was a willing participant in all this.  At best, she did it under duress.

The problem is that if we take the in-story explanations (which are not consistent) at face value, the whole thing becomes complete nonsense. If Lyanna was just a concubine, why allow her to carry a royal bastard at all? Why waste three KG in Dorne when he could go rape anyone?

Lyanna and Jon clearly had significance to Rhaegar that demanded the secret be held very close. 

Further, the consequence of there being no fight at ToJ is a bunch of mysterious deaths or hidden identities, which are hardly plausible even on the logistical level, let alone the unlikely possibility of several very significant characters hanging out contributing nothing to the present day story.

[cgrav]

Double post

[The Sleeper]

Hey, honey, my dad roasted your dad alive, while making him watch your brother choke himself to death. And now there is a war.

[WeKnowNothing]

Ok, I know spauldo17 has already given an explanation to this post, on which I highly agree with...but here I go anyway.

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

Wait, why can she not have average guards?  That makes no sense.  Twenty guardsmen are vastly better protection than three knights, no matter how skilled - Ned and six companions manage to break in, after all, and none of them are noted as being particularly prodigious swordsmen (Ned potentially excepted).

There is only one reason for the Kingsguard to be there, and that is because they are unswervingly loyal.  Rhaegar knows he can trust them to keep Lyanna there.  Otherwise, send her to Starfall (which is nearby) and have her give birth in the comfort and security of, you know... an actual castle with medical professionals.  Rhaegar can trust Arthur Dayne & Co to keep Lyanna cooped up.  Again, you have to give a convincing explanation of why a handful of guards wouldn't be equal or better protection.  They are also protecting her and the fetus, of course, but part and parcel of that is preventing her from leaving, even when she was physically capable of it.  She isn't allowed to go to Winterfell to have her child; she's a prisoner.

But this makes no sense at all.  They are having a child.  What could be more public?  Unless you assume Lyanna will spend her entire life at the Tower of Joy (e.g. a prisoner), the truth will get out.  There is literally zero implication that either of them want the pregnancy to be "secret".  What Rhaegar wants is the location to be secret.  Again, pregnancies are only secret when they're shameful, and if Lyanna is a willing participant, and Rhaegar is excited for the child (which he is, because of the prophecy), then what is there to be ashamed of, except the whole "breaking the Baratheon betrothal" aspect, which is spilled milk anyway at this point.

Again, Rhaegar doesn't want anyone finding Lyanna before she gives birth.  That's all we know.  We have literally no information on what Lyanna wants, but the circumstantial evidence all points to her being unable to leave the Tower of Joy.  Which makes her a prisoner in fact if not name.

"Could be" does not equal "is".  All we can strongly suspect is that Wylla was there, who isn't a midwife.  Since Rhaegar wants secrecy, the probabilities say that fewer, not more, people were at the ToJ.  But none of this answers the essential question, which is whether Lyanna was a prisoner.  The answer has to be yes; she was kept in an under-staffed tower in the middle of nowhere instead of the comfort of literally any castle, which means she isn't allowed to leave.

 

How does that logic work, at all?  She can easily love her child despite it's method of conception.  If she was begging Ned to spare Rhaegar, that would be convincing.  She wants her son to live, and not be killed by a vengeful Robert.  Pretty easy motivation.

 

He didn't.  It's nearly impossible.  Rhaegar had left months and months beforehand, so it's not possible he had given her said roses.  Possibly, one of the KG at the tower did, or Wylla brought them.  

 

Do you understand what "rape" is?  Rhaegar might love Lyanna with every fibre of his being, but it's still rape if he carries her off at swordpoint and keeps her an isolated prisoner in a tower at the far end of nowhere.  Hell, he might have come to care for her while holding her captive, and she him; Stockholm Syndrome is real enough.  But that doesn't mean the actual abduction didn't happen, and sex under duress is still rape.

 

I'm not sure why you can't picture this.  Those men are all depicted as being fundamentally decent, chivalrous knights and men.  Or at least that is their self-conception.  Why wouldn't they give the woman they are gently imprisoning something to brighten her day?  Unless these blue roses never die, it's not physically possible for Rhaegar to have given them to Lyanna.  It had to be someone local.

And yes, Rhaegar gives Lyanna the crown - he's trying to seduce her, which is an outrage in and of itself, as the text makes clear.  It's relatively common knowledge that Lyanna loves those flowers, this isn't something only Rhaegar knows.

She has KG protection because she is carrying a Royal heir of a prince, not just any random Lord. If she had random guards guarding her, what would be the chance that they would leave or abandon her the minute they see the Targearyens loosing? For them, their own lives would be more important, not the life of Lyanna and the safety of her child. That's why KG are always kept around heirs, because they take sacred vows to protect the King and any of his heirs - so the risk of them disobeying is very nearly impossible, and because they are extremely loyal to the crown (unlike random guards who can always switch sides).

You really think Lyanna can travel to the comfort of a castle and everyone would just take her pregnancy just fine? It would be a huge shock to anyone who didn't know already. If any of the Starks, Baratheons, Arryns, Tully's, or anyone loyal to these houses find out that Lyanna is pregnant and willing, both she and the baby will be killed. That is for certain. That's why it's better to stay in the tower, she'll be guarded with 3 KG, and no one will be able to find her or find out about her preganncy because of the remote location. All this implies that they wanted the pregnancy to be kept a secret, if none of the rebels know she is pregnant, they won't try and find Jon and harm him. It's not a secret because of the "shame" from the broken Baratheon Betrothal, but instead to ensure the safety of both Lyanna and unborn Jon. Lyanna would be in no way a prisoner - though she is young, she ain't so stupid that she would risk the life of her unborn child trying to escape. We know she had a difficult birth, so there is a good chance that she could have had a hard pregnancy to. But according to you, she should be able to travel all the way to the nearest castle, or even to the other side of Westeros to Winterfell whilst being heavily pregnant? Sure, Lyanna would just get along fine, eventhough there's the high risk of miscarriage or premature birth on the rough roads of Westeros.

I am very well aware of what "rape" is. Lyanna is shown in text to have not resisted any affection/advances Rhaegar is told to have given her. He gives her blue roses, and she accepts. According to Ned himself, Lyanna's "wolf-blood" personality had a hand in her own fate, which would make no sense at all if she was raped. She is told to have been "taken at sword point," but again there is nothing told on Lyanna's feelings towards this. I have come to the conclusion that GRRM uses Jon-Ygritte as way to show us how Rhaegar-Lyanna went, especially in regards to the 'abduction' and falling in love. 

The blue roses are shown to only be a romance symbol, one between Rhaegar and Lyanna. No one else is shown to have ever given Lyanna the blue roses whilst she was alive - not Ned, not Robert, not her father, not Benjen or Brandon. Only Rhaegar. If she did indeed love these flowers and it was "well known" that she did, why wasn't it mentioned that anyone else besides Rhaegar ever gave her blue roses? No one ever did - instead, the first mention of anyone ever gifting her these is Rhaegar at the Harrenhal tourney. Then the next is when she's dying after the childbirth, which shows she holds on to them tightly - which doesn't make sense at all if they were associated to a bad memory, like being raped by the very man who gifted her those roses. GRRM uses the roses to symbolise a romantic relationship between Rhaegar-Lyanna - if he was showing a rape story, he would have used some vague symbolism for a rape, but he doesn't do anything of this type. Instead he writes about Lyanna, blue winter roses, who he connects with nobody else but Rhaegar...this doesn't show us anything at all like rape.

[WeKnowNothing]

2 hours ago, spauldo17 said:

I don't think you can make it a black and white situation  saying that leaving 3 KG at ToJ meant she was more important than his own life.  Those three wouldn't have saved him, he had an army for that, and also he took on Robert in single combat.

They wouldn't have gone to Viserys because they didn't know about Rhaegar's death, and even if they did it doesn't cancel his orders, it was a royal order. And she wasn't just some woman, clearly.  If you need me to tell you that then you haven't read the books thoroughly enough.

If Lyanna wasn't pregnant, they should made their way to Dragonstone immediately after Rhaegar, Aerys and baby Aegon were dead. They should have been guarding Viserys, as he would have been the next Targearyen King. But instead, they stay there to guard Lyanna.

I didn't mean that Lyanna was just "any woman" for us, she would be to most of the characters in the story, who aren't Ned, her close family, Rhaegar or Robert. For Barristan and Jaime, she wouldn't have been of any importance to them (if she wasn't pregnant, which they didn't know she was). She would just be this Stark girl that Rhaegar disappeared with and who he is said to have loved, but somehow the 3 KG act as if she is important over even Viserys, who should be the next Targearyen heir.

The 3 KG did know Rhaegar was dead, Aerys was dead and Viserys was at Dragonstone. They knew every thing that happened - which is told in Ned's recollection on the ToJ confrontation. Ned tells them that he expected to see them at Storms End, the trident or to have been with Viserys in Dragonstone. That's 3 important places where they could have been yet the KG don't even seem surprised or shocked, they don't question Ned to ask him what happened at these places. Instead their reactions are just unsurprised and neutral. Hightower says that their "false brother [Jaime] would be rotting in the seven hells" and that he would have killed Jaime for killing Aerys - "for Aerys would yet sit the throne," shows they know Aerys is dead. Ned tells them 'prince' Viserys is at Dragonstone, yet the KG don't even bother to change Ned's wording from 'prince' to 'king' if Viserys was indeed their King. Hightower also says that they "swore a vow" which refers to their KG vows, the main one being they should guard their King, especially new kings. If they really took their vows seriously, they would go guard Viserys, but the fact that they don't tells us that there was something/someone even more important than Viserys. 

Rhaegars death would definitely cancel any orders he made. Just like in the current time of AGOT, Robert makes very specific orders as to what should happen after his death; such as Ned being regent till Joffrey comes of age. Yet the minute Robert was dead and Ned took his will containing his orders to the throne room, Roberts very words were ripped apart and no one blinked twice. Sure, Selmy as the Lord commander of the KG is rather shocked at first, but does not question further as he would now be following the orders of the new King Joffrey. This would be the same case for the 3 KG at the tower - once Rhaegar, Aerys and baby Aegon were all dead, they should head over to Viserys, never mind what orders Rhaegar gave before his death. Especially Lord commander Gerold Hightower, he was known to be the most honourable and obedient rule follower of the KG vows, so he would definitely gone over to Viserys if he was now the King/heir. But instead, honourable Hightower stays, and dies for Lyanna's baby. 

[cpg2016]

2 hours ago, WeKnowNothing said:

She has KG protection because she is carrying a Royal heir of a prince, not just any random Lord. If she had random guards guarding her, what would be the chance that they would leave or abandon her the minute they see the Targearyens loosing? For them, their own lives would be more important, not the life of Lyanna and the safety of her child. That's why KG are always kept around heirs, because they take sacred vows to protect the King and any of his heirs - so the risk of them disobeying is very nearly impossible, and because they are extremely loyal to the crown (unlike random guards who can always switch sides).

OK lets pick this apart.  First off, KG do not take vows to protect the heirs of the King.  The protect the King, full stop.  This is explicit in the text.  You don't understand what you're talking about.  And Kingsguard can and do switch sides; it happens all the time.  You could argue Jaime switches sides.  Criston Cole certainly did.

More importantly, and I don't know how many times I have to say this before you understand, Jon is not anyone's heir!  First off, he has an older brother at this point.  Second, he's a bastard, and the one person capable of legitimizing him (Aerys) isn't going to.

2 hours ago, WeKnowNothing said:

You really think Lyanna can travel to the comfort of a castle and everyone would just take her pregnancy just fine? It would be a huge shock to anyone who didn't know already. If any of the Starks, Baratheons, Arryns, Tully's, or anyone loyal to these houses find out that Lyanna is pregnant and willing, both she and the baby will be killed.

Where the hell do you get this stuff?  Why would she be killed?  The Starks aren't killing their own daughter, and the rest of those Houses will almost certainly subscribe the notion that she was kidnapped and violated against her will (because whether or not it is actually true, it's a self-serving pretense).  And this is my whole freakin' point - she's going to show up with a baby at some point, so the whole thing will be common knowledge!  Why bother keeping it secret, then?  And if she goes to a Dornish or Reacher castle, why would they care?  They're already fighting for Aerys and Rhaegar.

Lets say Lyanna is a willing participant and the whole point is to keep the pregnancy secret.  What, exactly, do you think happens once Jon is born?  Everything gets exposed anyway!  It's not like pregnancy is super bad and needs to be kept secret but once the bastard is born, everything is hunky dory.  That is one of the many enormous holes in your theory.

2 hours ago, WeKnowNothing said:

All this implies that they wanted the pregnancy to be kept a secret, if none of the rebels know she is pregnant, they won't try and find Jon and harm him. It's not a secret because of the "shame" from the broken Baratheon Betrothal, but instead to ensure the safety of both Lyanna and unborn Jon

This is one of the least self-aware statements on a board full of them.  Everyone is already looking for Lyanna!  Pregnancy or no, finding her is obviously a priority for both Robert and Ned.  And if they find her, they find Jon.  And this again gets into the giant hole in your theory - lets say Lyanna gives birth in secret.  We have two options - she goes home to Winterfell with Jon, or she goes home alone and Jon goes to King's Landing (assuming the Targs win).  Either way, it is immediately obvious what happened.  Lyanna happens to reappear after about a year, and whoa! look at that, Rhaegar, who we know just abducted her, comes to court with a baby that looks just like Lyanna Stark!  People aren't morons.  I can see your point about why one might want to keep the pregnancy secret, but the whole thing falls apart once you realize that the baby won't be a secret.

2 hours ago, WeKnowNothing said:

Lyanna would be in no way a prisoner - though she is young, she ain't so stupid that she would risk the life of her unborn child trying to escape. We know she had a difficult birth, so there is a good chance that she could have had a hard pregnancy to. But according to you, she should be able to travel all the way to the nearest castle, or even to the other side of Westeros to Winterfell whilst being heavily pregnant? Sure, Lyanna would just get along fine, eventhough there's the high risk of miscarriage or premature birth on the rough roads of Westeros.

Why does she have to be heavily pregnant?  She'd know within a few months at most of her pregnancy.  Pregnant women in their second trimester are perfectly mobile, even in Westeros heavily pregnant women are moving around, we have evidence of it.  You're deliberating ignoring evidence and just common sense to make your awful arguments.

2 hours ago, WeKnowNothing said:

I am very well aware of what "rape" is. Lyanna is shown in text to have not resisted any affection/advances Rhaegar is told to have given her.

You are legitimately not reading the same series.  Lets show how you are almost literally the least literate person on the planet, point by point:

2 hours ago, WeKnowNothing said:

He gives her blue roses, and she accepts.

He crowns her Queen of Love and Beauty with a crown of blue roses, which is not in any way the same thing.  Whether she had the presence of mind to do anything but accept in the moment, which was a massively embarrassing one for everyone involved, is debatable.  Whether she's even allowed to turn it down is also up for dispute.  But we are not told once, NOT ONCE, that she "accepted" anything.

2 hours ago, WeKnowNothing said:

According to Ned himself, Lyanna's "wolf-blood" personality had a hand in her own fate, which would make no sense at all if she was raped

The two parts of this sentence have nothing to do with each other.  Lyanna is hot-tempered (wolf blood) and a bit of a tomboy.  How does that mean she is incapable of being raped?

2 hours ago, WeKnowNothing said:

She is told to have been "taken at sword point," but again there is nothing told on Lyanna's feelings towards this

I don't know how "taken at sword point" could be more clear that coercive force is involved.  It's both literally and euphemistically the definition of the phrase.  If I go out and take  someone's wife at gunpoint, no one asks "well, we don't have her feelings on the matter!" because the fact is that she got carried off under threat of violence.

2 hours ago, WeKnowNothing said:

The blue roses are shown to only be a romance symbol, one between Rhaegar and Lyanna. No one else is shown to have ever given Lyanna the blue roses whilst she was alive - not Ned, not Robert, not her father, not Benjen or Brandon. Only Rhaegar. If she did indeed love these flowers and it was "well known" that she did, why wasn't it mentioned that anyone else besides Rhaegar ever gave her blue roses?

Because it's not germane to the story that anyone else gives them to her?  Look, I know it's a foreign concept, but lets apply logic here.  Ned knows his sister loves the smell of winter roses (GOT, Eddard XV).  Since he only sees her for a short minute between her being crowned Queen of Love and Beauty and dying in the Tower of Joy, this is obviously reasonably common knowledge within the Stark household prior to the Tourney.  It makes far more sense that Rhaegar asked someone about it and that's how he knew to present her with winter roses, as opposed ot him doing it and then everyone saying "Ah, that Lyanna Stark must love winter roses and not a single person in the world knew it except Rhaegar Targaryen, how very wise and insightful he is".

Look, Martin isn't putting in fifty examples of someone giving Lyanna a particular breed of roses so you can have an airtight loony bin theory.  What makes more sense?  That Ned knows Lyanna loves those roses because she's his sister and she grew up loving them, or because he saw her get them once at a Tourey and intuited that those must be her favorite? Obviously Ned is more likely to know something like that about his sister than Rhaegar, who has only spoken to her once to twice at most, is.

And besides that, the blue winter rose is explicitly a symbol of Jon.  Hence the blue winter rose in the wall of ice.  That has nothing to do with Lyanna and Rhaegar and everything to do with Jon.  If you're trying to argue that "romance between Rhaegar and Lyanna" is a euphemism for Jon, then be out with it.

2 hours ago, WeKnowNothing said:

Then the next is when she's dying after the childbirth, which shows she holds on to them tightly - which doesn't make sense at all if they were associated to a bad memory, like being raped by the very man who gifted her those roses. 

So his is what we call a straw man argument, where you make up a series of implausible stupid facts, put them in my mouth, and then proceed to knock down said argument.  Obviously the scenario above makes no sense at all, which is naturally why you're the only one saying it.  Here is a much more plausible scenario, which has none of the awful gaps in logic and leaps of faith yours does.  Lyanna is abducted at swordpoint.  This is as close to canon as we get; Lyanna didn't "elope" she was confronted by a group of armed men, the choice of words is very particular.  So off she goes, a semi-captive at least, to the Tower of Joy.  Rhaegar sleeps with her, which when under threat of violence I call rape and you call love.  Well, Rhaegar sparked off a war, so now off hegoes to deal with it.  He leaves three Kingsguard, who are valuable only because of their loyalty to him, and not because of any particular fighting prowess in this instance, and one wet nurse provided by Arthur Dayne's family.  Lyanna, being pregnant and trapped in the Tower (despite being perfectly capable of going elsewhere in the earlier stages of her pregnancy, contrary to your other straw man argument about late stage pregnancy limiting her movement), asks for minor comforts to get her through the boredom and loneliness.  One of which, gasp, is the blue winter rose she loves so much and which remind her of home, the very home which Rhaegar has denied her access to, the family she isn't allowed to see..  The KG knights, being decent people, oblige.  She dies clutching those roses, the one and only remembrance of home before her captivity, the one comfort she's allowed in her veritable cell.

See how easily all that works?  There isn't a single logical inconsistency in it, the way yours is riddled with them.  She associates the roses with Winterfell and family, not Rhaegar.  The only way your objection works is if the blue winter roses are associated with Rhaegar, which makes no sense on the face of it.

27 minutes ago, WeKnowNothing said:

Rhaegars death would definitely cancel any orders he made.

OK... and how do they learn of Rhaegar's death?  Ned is the first one to the Tower, and no one else knows they're there, so they aren't reachable by raven.  Again, think before you write.

28 minutes ago, WeKnowNothing said:

Just like in the current time of AGOT, Robert makes very specific orders as to what should happen after his death; such as Ned being regent till Joffrey comes of age. Yet the minute Robert was dead and Ned took his will containing his orders to the throne room, Roberts very words were ripped apart and no one blinked twice. Sure, Selmy as the Lord commander of the KG is rather shocked at first, but does not question further as he would now be following the orders of the new King Joffrey.

Which story are you reading?  The whole thing with Cersei and Littlefinger is presented as an out-and-out coup.  Illegal, in other words, since you might not understand the meaning of the word "coup".

 

29 minutes ago, WeKnowNothing said:

This would be the same case for the 3 KG at the tower - once Rhaegar, Aerys and baby Aegon were all dead, they should head over to Viserys, never mind what orders Rhaegar gave before his death. Especially Lord commander Gerold Hightower, he was known to be the most honourable and obedient rule follower of the KG vows, so he would definitely gone over to Viserys if he was now the King/heir. But instead, honourable Hightower stays, and dies for Lyanna's baby. 

I addressed this above, but you really need to think before committing yourself to paper (or... digital paper).  It makes you look a fool.  The three KG at the Tower of Joy have no idea what is happening after Rhaegar dies, because no one knows where they are to alert them.  Certainly they have no idea of the death of Aerys and baby Aegon.

And yes, honorable Gerold Hightower stays and dies, because his orders are not to protect Lyanna, but to keep her from leaving.  Its self evident that Ned isn't there to kill his sister, who he thinks has been abducted.  Right?  As you say, these three die to fulfill their duty.  So we have to guess, what did Rhaegar order them to do?  If his orders were "make sure Lyanna and her child are safe" then there is absolutely no reason for the Kingsguard and Ned to fight.  He's not there to hurt them, and if they're concerned about his intentions towards Jon, they would at least ask that.  So what order fits the facts?  f they've been ordered to keep Lyanna from leaving.  Obviously Ned is there to rescue Lyanna.  Equally self-evidently, Hightower & Co have been ordered to prevent this.  Nothing else makes sense.  They are not fighting to protect anyone in this circumstance, they are fighting to prevent Ned from reaching his sister, and there is only one reason for that.  Yet another hole in your argument big enough to fly a 747 through.

[cpg2016]

3 hours ago, cgrav said:

The problem is that if we take the in-story explanations (which are not consistent) at face value, the whole thing becomes complete nonsense. If Lyanna was just a concubine, why allow her to carry a royal bastard at all? Why waste three KG in Dorne when he could go rape anyone?

Lyanna and Jon clearly had significance to Rhaegar that demanded the secret be held very close. 

Further, the consequence of there being no fight at ToJ is a bunch of mysterious deaths or hidden identities, which are hardly plausible even on the logistical level, let alone the unlikely possibility of several very significant characters hanging out contributing nothing to the present day story.

No, it all makes perfect sense and if you follow the story, you'll see.

Rhaegar is looking for the Prince that was Promised.  First he thinks its himself, then he thinks it's his kids.  And somewhere along the way, he gets in his head that because they're Targaryens, the "prince" is actually 3 princes.  Hence, his line to Elia about needing one more kid.  With me so far?  Good.  So, Rhaegar, studious, melancholic Rhaegar, figures out that the savior of the world will be born of ice and fire, which in-universe is basically a big signpost pointing to the Starks and Targaryens.  So he figures, the third head of the dragon must be born of myself and a Stark.  So he goes about seducing Lyanna.  Plays her sad music.  Crowns her Queen of Love and Beauty, a massive social faux pas and an insult to his wife, to Robert Baratheon, to the Starks even... basically he insults half the realm.  Remember, he starts a civil war over this.  And whether or not this works, he takes his chance in absconding with her, because the opportunity presents itself when he's able to find her with six armed men at his back, and presumably kills or intimidates most of her guards into giving her up.  So far, this is all pretty much explicit in the text, with the exception of the third head of the dragon needing to be a Stark descendant.

So to your point, yes, Lyanna is a concubine.  Her only importance to Rhaegar is that she's carrying his third head of the dragon, the fulfillment of prophecy to save the world.  That is why he wastes three Kingsguard in Dorne; Lyanna is just the vessel, but he cares very deeply about that kid, because he thinks that kid will save the world.  Hence why his orders to those KG are not to protect Lyanna, but to prevent anyone from getting their hands on either the pregnant mother or the eventual baby (if she successfully gives birth).  As I said elsewhere, why else does Gerold Hightower fight to the death to keep Ned from getting into the tower?  Obviously Ned isn't there to kill her; if a theory relies on the presumption that one of the characters will suddenly commit the most heinous crime possible one a sister he believes was abducted (as Ned surely does), then it's a weak theory.  They're fighting to keep Ned from hurting or making off with the baby; to the mind of Whent, Dayne, and Hightower, Rhaegar is still alive, and so are his other two kids.  And it's plausible that Arthur Dayne knows what Rhaegar is thinking as he is his only confidante.

This theory explains the whole chain of events nicely.  Why are the KG there?  Because Rhaegar can't trust anyone else to fight to the death to keep an innocent pregnant woman imprisoned, and he knows his KG will do so.  Why doesn't Lyanna leave to go somewhere where she has friends, family, any kind of support system?  She's being held prisoner, because keeping control of Jon is of utmost importance and Lyanna can't be allowed to give birth anywhere that might be threatened, or get news in or out about what her abduction has caused.

By contrast, the absurd other theories about "secret pregnancies" and shit are all full of holes.  A secret pregnancy makes sense only if there are no contraceptives and if the eventual child is meant to be sent off to some out of the way place (like Ramsay Snow).  Because at some point, Rhaegar intended to come home with little baby Jon, and everyone would know that Lyanna was pregnant (her kidnapping being common knowledge by now), so why bother keeping it secret in the first place when its costing so many valuable resources?

I'm happy to defend this theory and provide quotes.  If someone can poke a substantial hole in it, I'd be happy to reconsider.