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Jcat

Is there anyone else who hates Tyrion's arc this season?

53 posts in this topic

At this point I would like to interject a thought I had posting on another forum:

Tyrion's primary failure this season is assuming he had committed and competent allies.

-Yara and her fleet allowed themselves to be surprised and destroyed by Euron.

-Ellaria should have been thinking ahead and already have assembled her army close by.

-Olenna should at the very least have been massing her forces ready for action, instead of lazing at High Garden.  And how does she not know of the Tarly betrayal?  Maybe Olenna could have used 'a clever man' to marshall her army and keep her informed.

Fail...fail...fail.  Daenerys/Tyrion need better allies.

 

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Tyrion'so arc this season hasn't been awful just a bit lacking. But I do find the whole questioning where his loyalties lie to be interesting. The problem I find is that Tyrion's storyline in season 4 was phenomenal, really it's just impossible to improve from there.

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25 minutes ago, The Baelish Mockingbird said:

Tyrion'so arc this season hasn't been awful just a bit lacking. But I do find the whole questioning where his loyalties lie to be interesting. The problem I find is that Tyrion's storyline in season 4 was phenomenal, really it's just impossible to improve from there.

I strongly agree.  Season 4 was Tyrian's high point as a character, and it's been down hill from there.  And somewhere along the way he slipped from a main character in the show to a supporting character.  A real shame.

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21 hours ago, Jcat said:

I strongly agree.  Season 4 was Tyrian's high point as a character, and it's been down hill from there.  And somewhere along the way he slipped from a main character in the show to a supporting character.  A real shame.

It was always going to be difficult for Tyrion to maintain his own arc and be treated as a main character once he joined up with Daenerys. 

Tyrion's role so far in season 7 has really been very similar to and no greater than Ser Davos.

I love Ser Davos, but he has always been a supporting character, never a main one. Tyrion now essentially shares the same space as him it seems. 

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58 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

It was always going to be difficult for Tyrion to maintain his own arc and be treated as a main character once he joined up with Daenerys. 

Tyrion's role so far in season 7 has really been very similar to and no greater than Ser Davos.

I love Ser Davos, but he has always been a supporting character, never a main one. Tyrion now essentially shares the same space as him it seems. 

Unfortunately, I agree with your observation.  Tyrion was once a main character, and now joins Ser Davos as a secondary character.  And maybe as you said that was inevitable once he agreed to serve Daenerys.

The thing that does surprise me is that a majority of fans seem perfectly ok with Tyrion's demotion.

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I think Tyrion's storyline could be written muc better but imho the writing in Game of Thrones is always lacking. I get it though. Many characters and little time.

 

Tyrion is in a very interesting position because he is working against his brother he loves so dearly. His story could be a very juicy one with all sorts of moral dilemmas but I feel like writer's are stuck with the idea of Tyrion the mastermind instead of Tyrion the brother. All of his lines are about strategy. Instead, we should be shown even if just a little how his strategy is aimed at protecting Jaime. He doesn't want Jaime to die and that is why he opposes Dany attacking Red Keep. And yes, Tyrion is bound to betray Dany as foretold by the book-Quaithe. Understandably so since Dany and Jaime are bound to clash.

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4 hours ago, MakeThemBurn said:

I think Tyrion's storyline could be written muc better but imho the writing in Game of Thrones is always lacking. I get it though. Many characters and little time.

 

Tyrion is in a very interesting position because he is working against his brother he loves so dearly. His story could be a very juicy one with all sorts of moral dilemmas but I feel like writer's are stuck with the idea of Tyrion the mastermind instead of Tyrion the brother. All of his lines are about strategy. Instead, we should be shown even if just a little how his strategy is aimed at protecting Jaime. He doesn't want Jaime to die and that is why he opposes Dany attacking Red Keep. And yes, Tyrion is bound to betray Dany as foretold by the book-Quaithe. Understandably so since Dany and Jaime are bound to clash.

Maybe I started complaining too soon.  As you say things may be getting more interesting for Tyrion in the remainder of season 7.  This all revolves around the question of the Jaime/Bronn permutations: do they escape and Tyrion watches and says nothing?  Does Tyrion actually help them escape before they are captured?  Or are they captured and Tyrion has to decide where his loyalties actually reside?  Finally, a juicy storyline maybe in the offing for our favorite Imp!

As a non-book reader I don't know if the show writers will include those added details into the remaining episodes--such as the Book of Quaithe.  With only 9-10 episodes left, and at the rate everything seems to be unfolding there is not alot more information TV audiences can be expected to absorb.  I actually have a complaint about the pacing of the show, which for 6 seasons was about 20-25 mph, and now is topping 60 mph every episode!  However, I will save that for another thread.

As for the show writers portraying Tyrion as a mastermind?  So far they have been portraying him as a rather second rate mastermind, and that is at the core of my compliant.  But maybe what is missing from Tyrion's strategy in the show, will be more fully explained in the books.

 

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On 10/8/2017 at 5:02 PM, Jcat said:

At this point I would like to interject a thought I had posting on another forum:

Tyrion's primary failure this season is assuming he had committed and competent allies.

-Yara and her fleet allowed themselves to be surprised and destroyed by Euron.

-Ellaria should have been thinking ahead and already have assembled her army close by.

-Olenna should at the very least have been massing her forces ready for action, instead of lazing at High Garden.  And how does she not know of the Tarly betrayal?  Maybe Olenna could have used 'a clever man' to marshall her army and keep her informed.

Fail...fail...fail.  Daenerys/Tyrion need better allies.

 

I think that also not anticipating any of his siblings moves was a big failure. He made plans as if his opponents were to wait sitting in the Red Keep for him to unfold all his strategy. How dumb is that? You can not plan a war on a board without anticipating the opponent's possible moves, and having a plan for each one of them.

 

1 hour ago, Jcat said:

As for the show writers portraying Tyrion as a mastermind?  So far they have been portraying him as a rather second rate mastermind, and that is at the core of my compliant.  But maybe what is missing from Tyrion's strategy in the show, will be more fully explained in the books.

The books won't make Tyrion look as stupid as the show. Given that Cercei and Jaime won't be the most important contenders for Dani, he won't have any mixed feelings either. The Lannisters twins are taking the role of the book Aegon as the big enemy to beat because the show writers just suppressed this character. 

That's the reason why they  "artificially" made Cersei more powerful and "intelligent", at the expense of dumbing down Tyrion. It's just poor writing.  For all we know, it's not likely that Jaime will still be with Cercei when Dani arrives to Westeros in the books. It's not even sure that Cercei will be alive by then.

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1 hour ago, LucyMormont said:

I think that also not anticipating any of his siblings moves was a big failure. He made plans as if his opponents were to wait sitting in the Red Keep for him to unfold all his strategy. How dumb is that? You can not plan a war on a board without anticipating the opponent's possible moves, and having a plan for each one of them.

 

The books won't make Tyrion look as stupid as the show. Given that Cercei and Jaime won't be the most important contenders for Dani, he won't have any mixed feelings either. The Lannisters twins are taking the role of the book Aegon as the big enemy to beat because the show writers just suppressed this character. 

That's the reason why they  "artificially" made Cersei more powerful and "intelligent", at the expense of dumbing down Tyrion. It's just poor writing.  For all we know, it's not likely that Jaime will still be with Cercei when Dani arrives to Westeros in the books. It's not even sure that Cercei will be alive by then.

In the latest episode Tyrion admits/apologizes for underestimating 'their enemies' on the beach at Dragonstone, which leads Daenerys to turn on him and say "your family you mean."

I don't think it is that simple.  Every strategy precedes from a set of assumptions.  Definately some of those assumptions were in error--for instance that there was still plenty of gold at Casterly Rock, that Cersei does not have a capable Hand (when in fact it is just the opposite), and finally that their allies were well lead (which they were not).  And of course, there is Euron which caused the most damage to Daenerys forces.  There was not a proper appreciation of his potential to throw a wrench in the gears of Tyrion's well oiled plans.

The most brilliant strategist could not have anticipated all of these factors, but the best are able to adjust and take advantage of the evolving operational circumstances.  Thats what happened in the Field of Fire 2.0 attack.  Daenerys forces took advantage of what appeared at first to be a Lannister success.  I hope for Tyrion's sake he had something to do with the decision leading to the attack.

Finally, what you mentioned about Aegon from the books is why I am not going to read the books until the TV series ends.  The two storylines have diverged too much.  It is almost like one is the alternative universe version of the other.

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Tyrion is a shark stranded on a beach. Many others have already made this point, so I will not repeat them.

His problem is that he really never thought much of Jaime as an intelligent being. He loves his brother etc. but he always had Jaime firmly in the handsome stupid corner. Now Jaime with the help of Euron have shown Tyrion that yapping and pseudo-strategies will not go far in the real war. The sheer stupidity of splitting forces, going after several irrelevant targets at once, abandoning the screaming obvious target in Highgarden etc. are bad writing - however, I believe they are there to point out that Tyrion is not a General. Enter Jorah.

Of course, much of this is also because the show needs to be exciting. Dany strolling lazily into Red Keep would have been a borefest - but realistic.

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5 hours ago, Dragons 7th Eye said:

Tyrion is a shark stranded on a beach. Many others have already made this point, so I will not repeat them.

His problem is that he really never thought much of Jaime as an intelligent being. He loves his brother etc. but he always had Jaime firmly in the handsome stupid corner. Now Jaime with the help of Euron have shown Tyrion that yapping and pseudo-strategies will not go far in the real war. The sheer stupidity of splitting forces, going after several irrelevant targets at once, abandoning the screaming obvious target in Highgarden etc. are bad writing - however, I believe they are there to point out that Tyrion is not a General. Enter Jorah.

Of course, much of this is also because the show needs to be exciting. Dany strolling lazily into Red Keep would have been a borefest - but realistic.

Good points...but you don't have to be a general to craft a good strategy.  And Tyrion before his association with Daenerys I would have wagered would have been up to the task.  And in fact so did Varys (unless Varys has been playing a double game).  I still hope and believe the people underestimating Tyrion's abilities will be proved wrong in the end.

 

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1 minute ago, Jcat said:

Good points...but you don't have to be a general to craft a good strategy.  And Tyrion before his association with Daenerys I would have wagered would have been up to the task.  And in fact so did Varys (unless Varys has been playing a double game).  I still hope and believe the people underestimating Tyrion's abilities will be proved wrong in the end.

 

Thing is - strategy is by default measured against the strategy of the opposition. In a vacuum I would not bet on Tyrion "being up to the task" against Randyll Tarly or even Jaime.

Tyrion has abilities for many things, but there really is little to suggest that Tyrion is a worthy of high command of the most powerful military on Planetos. And Jaime and Tarly showed him just that. All he had to do is not screw up, as Dany herself showed in ep4 by simply applying portion of the overwhelming force (still after Tyrion's blunders) at her command.

And I like Tyrion, especially in the show. As a character he is likable and even lovable in the show. He does not have to be a military genius to be competent and valuable as his value lies elsewhere.

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4 hours ago, Dragons 7th Eye said:

Thing is - strategy is by default measured against the strategy of the opposition. In a vacuum I would not bet on Tyrion "being up to the task" against Randyll Tarly or even Jaime.

Tyrion has abilities for many things, but there really is little to suggest that Tyrion is a worthy of high command of the most powerful military on Planetos. And Jaime and Tarly showed him just that. All he had to do is not screw up, as Dany herself showed in ep4 by simply applying portion of the overwhelming force (still after Tyrion's blunders) at her command.

And I like Tyrion, especially in the show. As a character he is likable and even lovable in the show. He does not have to be a military genius to be competent and valuable as his value lies elsewhere.

I agree Tyrion is no combatant commander type.  But neither was Henry Kissenger, and he helped define national strategy in the Nixon administration.  I think Tyrion could pull off Kissenger's role very well.  What was lacking when Tyrion was laying out his grand strategy was a Randell Tarly type who could have provided corrective input to improve the plan.

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