ASOIAF/D&D Principal Character Classes

[Faera]

3 hours ago, newbieone said:

I'm just not convinced she has to be a paladin or even LG. Doesn't mean she can't be, of course. But I find her unlikely in the end. Possible, but unlikely.

Neither am I, to be honest. It is simply the classification and class I felt suited her best at the time though I would agree it is very subjective. I also struggle a little with categorising pre-existing characters into classes and alignments. Same case with Jon, really.

Which class would you go for with Brienne, do you think? You seem to have a lot more experience of it than me! 

[newbieone]

Perhaps Plain Jane Fighter with some sort of knightly kit (2E) or prestige class(es) (3E)? There are plenty NG and LG and to some extent LN knights who live according to the code without the whole holy champion business.

That said, the more I like look at her lifestyle and her role in Westeros, the more I'm beginning to think that perhaps she fits. It's just that I can't really complete the mental association with laying on hands, turning undead, casting clerical spells and all that jazz. On the other hand, it's a low-magic word and she meets the dictionary definition of 'paladin' if not the typical D&D externals, so perhaps I'm just being picky. She's full of service with no expectation of reward, other than a deep-seated and disguised craving for acceptance.

I've just taken another look at her quotes, and I'm no longer so sure. I'm beginning to see her as having a distinct 'class consciousness' compared to the average 'ser', and not even the bad ones. If you look at the Laughing Storm — Lyonel Baratheon — he's a knight all right, a paragon in his own way, but he doesn't have this kind of largely intangible special thing that Brienne has, in comparison. She's certainly more paladin-y than Dunk (possibly her ancestor) and certainly just as paladin-y as most people who'd be cited as real-life examples of the class. She's no Galahad or Percival, but she probably fits with Lancelot, not to mention anybody from actual real-life history as opposed to legends.

So I'm torn on her. I'd probably play her as an NG or even LG fighter in the end, but that's probably mostly because of the whole low-magic thing (almost no magic). But if I could design a paladin class with toned down bells and whistles, she'd be it. Otherwise I'd probably leave the actual class (though she and a bunch of other folks certainly are paladins in the generic sense) to some sort of shining beacons of the Seven around whom supernatural things are happening. Meaning nobody alive unless we see someone yet.

So let's say we take the dictionary meaning of 'paladin' and look at the sources D&D took inspiration from and go from there. In which case: Brienne, Dunk, Baelor Breakspear, Faegon, Daemon II (perhaps), Changed Lancel, Barristan Selmy (perhaps), Arthur Dayne (perhaps), Aemon the Dragonknight (perhaps), Egg/Aegon V (perhaps), Lord Dondarrion, Ned (in his own way, without being a charismatic champion), Robb (perhaps, in his own way), Blackfish (in his own rogue way). Possibly Raymun Fossoway, but I'm guessing and stretching it. Possibly some of the guys fighting in King Maegor's Trial by the Seven.

[Seams]

On 2/25/2018 at 12:06 AM, Asshai Backward said:

I've left this on the back burner because I wasn't sure what if any relevance it might have, but I noticed a while ago that many of our protagonists have each in turn been profoundly affected by an encounter with characters who very much fit these sorts of archetypes.  The interactions were almost always of the kind that turned our protagonists' paths much more firmly towards their "destinies."

Jon--Quorin-the Ranger/Fighter.  Jon's career in the Night's Watch, and his role in the big picture, turned on Quorin's inclusion in his little fellowship.  I don't believe it was a chance thing, or something Quorin did on a whim, but that is probably another story.

Dany--Quaithe-the Enchantress?  (Not sure about all those magical sub-classes). She played a pivotal role during Dany's "wandering in the desert" face.

Tyrion--Moqorro--the Cleric.  It was the availability of Moqorro's chartered ship that turned Tyrion's fate on a dime, but perhaps even moreso, the way he tells Tyrion of his place in it all may have even greater significance, as might events yet to play out in Mereen.

Arya--Jaquen--the Assassin.  Pretty clear the role he's played in Arya's journey.

Jaimie/Cersei--Qyburn--the Necromancer.  Maybe a bit murky, but his role with Jaime's sword hand, which seems to be a major turning point, as well as how he influences Cersei...still working on that.

As you might note, all those archetypal characters have something in common--the letter Q.  Coincidence probably, but I wouldn't put it past Martin.  Having said that, I haven't unearthed any other Q characters that fit the bill, particularly in Bran's case.  Unless Coldhands is Qorgyle...

What kind of characters or "wild cards" would you create if you were turning ASOIAF into a game? Assume you could already use all of the roles or character types listed in the OP. 

This thread came back to me recently as I was thinking about cyvasse and how it seems to cover only the strategic moments of battle involving positioning dragons, elephants, light horse, heavy horse, siege engines, etc. within a landscape. So much of the ASOIAF "game" takes place off the battlefield, so this D&D analogy is a much better reflection of the game I see, but it still doesn't cover all of the unique quirks of ASOIAF. (Again, I confess I've never played Dungeons and Dragons, so I don't know all the ins and outs.)

GRRM also gives us a Maegor's Holdfast game of Chutes and Ladders (Snakes and Ladders in some versions), and variations on Come into my Castle, Lord of the Crossing, Monsters and Maidens and other in-story children's games. These games could vary with rolls of the dice or drawing of a "wild card" (like "Community Chest" or "Chance" cards in Monopoly) or changes in players. Perhaps some games are not even meant to be won and lost but involve role-playing and emulation of legends or of grown-ups. Other than "Lord of the Crossing," these games aren't clearly explained to the reader, however, so we are left to imagine what might be involved. 

I realize that this is deliberate by GRRM: he wants to leave the game metaphor rich and complex; to avoid giving away mysteries of the series by spelling things out or reducing the games to one set of rules. There was a book about twenty years ago, The Accidental Tourist by Anne Tyler, in which a group of siblings invented a game called "Vaccination." The book didn't reveal the rules, but apparently movie makers fleshed out the game and created rules for gameplay when the book was adapted for a film. Maybe that's what I'm doing in my head here -- adapting the ASOIAF game for a film. (Wouldn't it be great if someone did that?  )

Here are some roles or scenarios I think might have to be part of a ASOIAF game, if one were to be created:

Settings

Inn - A crossroad where people make a major decision that leads to a change of course.

Mystery - Such as Pennytree. An human-made oddity that might mark an entrance to the Otherworld.

Forge / Tomb - Where metal or humans are reborn as weapons. Might include the dragon skull storage area of the Red Keep. Not sure whether all crypts and barrows fall into this category.

Wedding Feast - Someone dies; someone else gains power.

Steps, ladders, windows, privy shafts - Part of the Chutes and Ladders process of attaining power. 

Castle Walls - How thick are they? Can they be breached or scaled? Are they single or double thickness? Do they have secret tunnels or thermal-fed springwater running between them?

Ruins

Caves / tunnels

towers

Characters

These are not necessarily players in their own right. As @Asshai Backward described, sometimes these are people the players encounter during the game / story. These are characters or types mentioned in the story that don't (imho) match the Dungeons & Dragons categories already listed in the OP. Their roles in a "game" are not yet defined.

Grumkins and Snarks

usurpers

cutpurses

whores

gamblers

bastards

twins

paramours

ghosts

deserters

squires

wards

hostages

crones

smiths

silent sisters

stableboys

cooks

makers of stew

gravedigger

spice merchants

smugglers

jugglers

jailers

"Chance" cards

Join the small council

Go on a quest

betrothal

death in the family

besieged

a Raven brings a message

Join the kingsguard, Night's Watch, Brotherhood Without Banners or a sellsword company

meet a stranger or hedge knight

gain inheritance

childbirth

receive a gift or gifts

receive a cloak

receive or take a sword, wolf pup or egg

participate in a tourney

trial by combat

Trial of Seven

share a meal

eat horse meat

fly

build a raft or boat

change clothes

ingest poison

get stabbed or shot with an arrow

lose a body part

wear a mask or helmet

wear a disguise

find a cache of treasure

identify a lost child

Objects of the Game

This is unclear. A lot of the goals of characters in ASOIAF can be achieved only through battle, which would bring us back to cyvasse. Imagining the gameplay that does not seem to be part of that war game is what primarily interests me here. This list overlaps quite a bit with the objectives of the military game.

Obtain throne

survive long enough to have children

return home

get a lot of gold dragons and wine

avoid unhappy betrothal (or bedding)

achieve betrothal of your dreams

serve your liege lord

restore liege lord (or heirs) to power

be legitimized by a king

bring honor on your House

get rings like Illyrio's

keep the seat and land you have

gain land from a neighboring lord

avoid poison

avenge a loved one

die

What have I left out? Are these elements of the game?