[AFfC Spoilers] not up to par?

[Prince of the North]

Wow! This thread is awesome! I mean, I've never seen a hair get split so many ways before

Isn't it wonderful that Martin set the bar so high and impressed us all so much with the first few installments of ASoIaF that he can't even meet his own standard anymore? I say we're all quite fortunate. AFfC is one-seventh of a larger story - I think I'll reserve judgement on any part of it until the whole story is complete.

We're on the "plateau" in the middle of the ASoIaF story arc so it's no wonder that maybe not as much action is taking place. I don't think a story arc can climb indefinitely, can it? That's why it's conceptualized as an "arc", right?! Books six and seven will "plunge" to a thrilling conclusion and I'm thinkin' there'll be some more action then.

Also, when it comes to enjoying a good story it's really more about savoring and experiencing the "journey" than quickly reaching the "destination", isn't it? I think, if the first four books are any indication, that when the story ends part of me will wish it could continue (even though it will probably have reached 5000+ pages by then).

I'd also bet that everyone on this thread, whether they liked, disliked, or were indifferent to AFfC, will eagerly devour the rest of the series.

[Ser Piggy Of The Baby Back Rib]

I think this was the worst one yet. I was very disappointed with this book. Maybe if he didn't put in so many pointless chapters he could have fit it all in one book and then we'd have a more complete work.

Ser Aerys? What was the point? His weakness could have easily been displayed in an Arianne POV.

Areo? If you wanted to show the confrontation between Doran and his neices, it could have been a bit part of the Prologue.

The Cersei chapters were horrible in my opinion. If she is as inept as she was made out to be, she should be dead long before this. Did I really need to see 4 or 5 POV of her just making mistakes?

And what's up with Harry the Heir being betrothed to Sansa? Why would lady Waynwood consent to this when she MUST know that he is the Heir after Robert? She's going to give Littlefinger all that power? Unless LF has bought her somehow, she should hold all the power in this transaction. Robert won't live long and she's got the next ruler of the Vale. Another of the Lords Declarant should have scooped him up by now to wed one of their female family members.

This reminded me WOT with a bunch of new plot lines and characters being introduced.

I like the Arya Chapters and a couple of the Jaime chapters. The Brienne chapters were average at best.

I really hope the next one isn't as dis-jointed as I found this one to be. Maybe reading 2 Steven Erikson books right before this one didn't help.

[Hark]

We're on the "plateau" in the middle of the ASoIaF story arc so it's no wonder that maybe not as much action is taking place. I don't think a story arc can climb indefinitely, can it? That's why it's conceptualized as an "arc", right?! Books six and seven will "plunge" to a thrilling conclusion and I'm thinkin' there'll be some more action then.

What scares me is that this is exactly what I thought when I read Jordan's WoT book 6... and 7.. and 8.. anytime now.. this is the PLATEAU.. the comma in his sentence.. the calm before the storm... book 9... book 10...

aFfC was not NEARLY as bad as WoT books 6-10. But it contained some Jordanesque elements that have me a little bit worried. Brienne wandering aimlessly on a quest we know to be pointless, Cercei listening to petitioners (even SHE thinks it's boring), Sansa spending 5 pages talking Robert Arryn out of bed..

There was alot of page-filler in aFfC that we just haven't seen from GRRM till now. I hope, as you do, that this was the comma, the calm, the pause between movements. But I've been burned before.

[Lord Baelish]

I really did not like this book. It took me a lot longer to read than any of the previous three, and I was tempted to stop reading it altogether. Very little of interest actually happens, and 90% of it seemed to just be page-filler. Brienne's chapters are some of the most dull and pointless I've read in any fantasy series, and I found the Cersei prophecy storyline to be weak and didn't sit well for me at all. By far the worst book of the series.

[wutru]

I didn't read this whole thread, but here's my take on the book.

The first 3 books were good because they had familiar Character POVs that we could connect with emotionally throughout the series. In AFFC, there were too many new POVs and not enough old ones that we were attached to already.

In the first 3 books, we had Tyrion, Dany, Catelyn, Bran, Jon, etc.

In AFFC, the only ones from the old books were: Jaime, Sansa, Arya

The new characters were: Samwell, Cersei, Brienne, Arianne, Victarion, Aeron, Arys, Asha, Areo Hotah

Conclusion: Too many new characters and not enough old ones.

[DAGRON!!!]

Ok, This is is technically my *second* post, but my first one was to test the waters.

The war is over, no big battles are left... you can't keep ramping up the action, there's nothing left to ramp up. This was not going actioned packed book. I would've been disappointed if it were. This series is as much about politics as it is about war. It's as much about Westeros and the people who live in it as it is about action and suspense

We have the Lannisters in a dicey alliance with the Tyrells. Ceresi is unfit to rule, she was not groomed for it. Tywin is dead and the Tyrells are a very canny, coehesive family... The Iron Islands have to deal with the death Balon. The Riverlands are besieged and the land at large is ruined. Dorne is formenting their revenge, but is also in a state of political upheaval.

The POVs you get Brienne, who's kind of a "Man on the street" (pardon the gender bias) Her's is a melieu story, it reminds us that this is a war, it was devestating and not romantic. She is the only POV that can explain the rise of the Sparrows.

Jaime's POV is about character development, and redemtion. It's personal and powerful. Even so, his jaunt to the Riverlands further illustrates that the war was devestating. He twice tells someone to hope for another harvest.

Why is necessary to emphasize that there is no food, no civilization, and no harvest? Because in the immortal words of House Stark "Winter is Coming..."

Dorne is a mess, the Prince is blindsided by his need for revenge and forgets to raise his daughter to rule. This creates an unecessary power struggle. This has the, in my opinion, the weakest chapter of the book, Queenmaker. It seems like GRRM had the vision of Dorne but not the plot laid out. The images are beautiful, the Rhoyenar on the river, the blood oranges. The plot is clumsy, and aside from the Sandsnakes and the Prince, the characters are two dimensional.

Cersei's faults are too numerous to name. She is being played like a fiddle by the Tyrells and LF. It's fascinating to watch her downfall. She's always been a reactive character, not an initiator. When she tries to start plots of her own, the blow up in her face.

In essence, the point I'm trying to make is that this is a Set Up book, not a gripping climax like ASOS. This moves the players into position. The Series is going to start getting exciting again, there will be more action, more drama. But it's fun to see where people are starting out, and to guess at how they are going to end up.

Anyways, I enjoyed AFfC immensly, it reminded me why I'm reading the series. Romanticism and Realism are so well balanced in ASOIAF, and the pendulum is swinging back to realism.

[Ser Piggy Of The Baby Back Rib]

I didn't read this whole thread, but here's my take on the book.

The first 3 books were good because they had familiar Character POVs that we could connect with emotionally throughout the series. In AFFC, there were too many new POVs and not enough old ones that we were attached to already.

In the first 3 books, we had Tyrion, Dany, Catelyn, Bran, Jon, etc.

In AFFC, the only ones from the old books were: Jaime, Sansa, Arya

The new characters were: Samwell, Cersei, Brienne, Arianne, Victarion, Aeron, Arys, Asha, Areo Hotah

Conclusion: Too many new characters and not enough old ones.

The problem is not the new characters, the problem is that their chapters are boring and/or pointless. I would have loved to see a good Arys chapter if it would have been somewhat interesting and made the story progress a little bit. What was the point of the Victarion chapter? To let us know how fearsome he is and how much he hates his brother? Was that something we didn't know before we got to his chapter? We could have summed up all the Iron Born chapters into one point of view and eliminated Asha's and Victarion's it seems.

[Cities of the Future]

A Feast For Crows sucked. Hard. GRRM has come down with what I've dubbed "Robert Jordan Syndrome." i.e. his desire for money has outweighed his commitment to telling the story. I feel sorry for anyone who is self-deluded enough to believe this book is anything but a pile of steaming crap.

Remember the first three books of WoT were good too. Then Jordan started getting full of himself, decided he should share random pointless bullshit with us instead of advancing the main storyline. What is it about beginning an awesome epic fantasy that makes you randomly decide once you hit the midpoint to completely abandon the story arc? The only explanation I can think of is money.

[Caligula_K]

A Feast For Crows sucked. Hard. GRRM has come down with what I've dubbed "Robert Jordan Syndrome." i.e. his desire for money has outweighed his commitment to telling the story. I feel sorry for anyone who is self-deluded enough to believe this book is anything but a pile of steaming crap.

I like your logic.

Premise 1: I didn't like this book

Conclusion:

1. George R.R. Martin has sacrificed the story in order to make money

2. Anyone who says they enjoyed this book is self-deluded

You could give Aristotle a run for his money.

[Gildor]

What is it about beginning an awesome epic fantasy that makes you randomly decide once you hit the midpoint to completely abandon the story arc? The only explanation I can think of is money.

Thats the point of it being epic, you must have a story line, it wouldn't be ftting just to sumarise a whole plot line or thread just in a few pages, of course he hasn't abandoned the story arc. While certain readers may find this advantageous in not giving such an EPIC story its proper due, some of us prefer to read writing from a very good author. Who while its very obvious hasn't write a book like the one before, it is still very much a Song of Ice and fire book.

What would of happenned if Tolkien had decided not to have made the fellowship walk to Mordor, but have gotten them a lift on a the backs of some friendly eagles.

I see Martin taking the steps he has taken, as the sign of someone confident in the outcome of this series. I've retained faith so should you.

Not everyone has a writing stlye like Jordan, Martin certainly doesn't, so if he saw fit to guide the story in the way he saw fit, i would back him, because he is a very good writer.

[Cities of the Future]

Thats the point of it being epic, you must have a story line, it wouldn't be ftting just to sumarise a whole plot line or thread just in a few pages, of course he hasn't abandoned the story arc. While certain readers may find this advantageous in not giving such an EPIC story its proper due, some of us prefer to read writing from a very good author. Who while its very obvious hasn't write a book like the one before, it is still very much a Song of Ice and fire book.

What would of happenned if Tolkien had decided not to have made the fellowship walk to Mordor, but have gotten them a lift on a the backs of some friendly eagles.

I see Martin taking the steps he has taken, as the sign of someone confident in the outcome of this series. I've retained faith so should you.

Not everyone has a writing stlye like Jordan, Martin certainly doesn't, so if he saw fit to guide the story in the way he saw fit, i would back him, because he is a very good writer.

Are you familiar with the background of AFFC? How GRRM was originally not going to write it, then added it in later?

[DAGRON!!!]

ASOIAF is set up to be three story archs, not one. The War of the Five Kings, The Return of the Targaryens, and The Song of Ice and Fire (aka the battle against the others)

Action wise, Feast is a disappointment. It has the mis fortune of being a conclusion AND an exposition, weighted more towards being an conclusion to the War of the Five Kings. A Dance with Dragons will probably be simular, but will be more of an exposition of Dany's return. It's not a plateau, it's a restart. In an ideal world, GRRM could make a clean break, add the five year gap and start the next story anew. Unfortunately, there would've been too much backstory, too much to explain. You think Feast was "boring"? Imagine wading through endless POVs of flashbacks and non-action. <shudder>

Story wise, Feast is good. It's AGOT all over again. We get fresh perspectives, new characters, motives, and points of view. He's setting up another storyline, that will have another climax. No big shockers in this one, but you can only dip into that well so often.

If Dance isn't the climax of this tale, then there will be another book, probably another ASOS, fast, eventful, big battles, characters dying, etc.

I think this is why ASOIAF is NOT WOT. If you keep trying to top yourself, add more and more energy to the series, it begins to become contrived and serialized. I stopped reading WOT when I started hearing the corny 40's radio annoucer in my head. "In this week's episode, the Aes Sedai try to save the world's weather, Perrin chases after his lost love and Rand learns the true meaning of Yule tide spirit. Thrills, Chills Spills and Frills await!!!"

[Prince of the North]

What scares me is that this is exactly what I thought when I read Jordan's WoT book 6... and 7.. and 8.. anytime now.. this is the PLATEAU.. the comma in his sentence.. the calm before the storm... book 9... book 10...

aFfC was not NEARLY as bad as WoT books 6-10. But it contained some Jordanesque elements that have me a little bit worried. Brienne wandering aimlessly on a quest we know to be pointless, Cercei listening to petitioners (even SHE thinks it's boring), Sansa spending 5 pages talking Robert Arryn out of bed..

There was alot of page-filler in aFfC that we just haven't seen from GRRM till now. I hope, as you do, that this was the comma, the calm, the pause between movements. But I've been burned before.

Yes, I too was taken in by Jordan's Wheel of Time series for awhile. I read the first 3 or 4 books (don't remember anymore) before I figured out that Jordan's having a great laugh at the expense of everyone who keeps reading WOT. Get it, it's called Wheel of Time because it never ends (or, at least, it seems like it never will)! Has the series ended yet? Admittedly, I haven't checked on it in about 20 years.

Anyway, have faith! Jordan doesn't compare to Martin, WOT doesn't compare to ASoIaF, and Martin's story will continue to enthrall us all and come to an incredible end. Enjoy the journey because the end will come before any of us really wants it to.

[Hark]

Has the series ended yet?

Book 11 was published this fall. Jordan says book 12 is the last book, however the consensus among fans seems to be that this last book will most likely be broken up into two volumes since there are far too many open plot lines to resolve in 800 pages. Two 1000 page volumes MIGHT manage to wrap things up without rushing them.

I am SO disappointed in RJ. I was absolutely spell-bound by the first 5-6 books. And then crap piled onto crap. Book 11 (Knife of Dreams) was a major improvement over the previous 4 books, but it still doddled excessively.

[The Boar of Gore]

For me AFfC was a little disappointing but I agree with the people who posted that a lot of it is set-up. A lot of it, particularly Brienne's POV, is tieing up loose ends too I think, and that's understandable because GRRM left sooo much going on at the end of ASoS. Also it picked up towards the end; only in the last half were there any moments approaching the drama of the first 3 books.

The first 3 books were wonderfully dramatic. It wasn't just that there was action and battles. It's that there were beautiful images - 5 children and 1 bastard, 5 grey cubs and 1 white. Then there were events that turned your world upside down - Bran gets thrown from a castle window! Then there were events that just changed the whole picture completely - the Whispering Wood happens and suddenly the Starks are winning, big bad Jaime Lannister is in a dungeon, and suddenly it looks like the bad guys might get what's coming to them. Dany had lost everything, was in the middle of nowhere, and had been duped by a sorceress - then suddenly there are dragons in the world again. Everyone's got favourite moments and there are plenty of great ones.

GRRM just kept the drama and tension at high levels for 3 books. It's like now he needed a breathing space to tie up a few loose ends and put some pieces in place mainly it seems to link up with the Dany theme. For me there was only one point where AFfC got my spine tingling - when Doran Martell speaks of 'vengeance... fire and blood'. Stirring words - but more than that they're especially dramatic because they turn your interpretation of Doran Martell's character, and therefore of all events in Dorne, inside out. Up to then you thought he was cautious but then you realise he's very daring. Too bad the dragons are so small...*sighs*

Of course towards the end there are loads of other dramatic moments too but for me that was the best one. And the first half seemed a bit aimless.

[Grand HeartTree]

7 years later, I still agree.