Atreides Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Dany has dragons and Unsullied. She is the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roza Ahai Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 She stole the unsullied. She did not pay the price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrigan Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 She traded her child (is she the Mother?) for the unsullied and betrayed, killed negotiators, simply stole the unsullied. I find it really disgusting. After that, she is the great Hero. Harrr.. They were slavers. They got what they deserved. She stole the unsullied. She did not pay the price. She came as a conqueror. She doesn't have to pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 She came as a conqueror. She doesn't have to pay. Actually, she came as a raider, killing, stealing and moving away from the mess afterwards, one could call that foraging. Since it's Dany, obviously, all the guys she kills deserve it, are stupid enough to be caught, trust her word, and don't have devious scheme like a Littlefinger, Olenna Tyrell or Roose Bolton. All good and nice, it's the straight road for her access to power. Were she in Westeros, she would be reviled for her dishonesty, like a Frey after a Red Wedding, except the slavers would have had safeguards against highjack of their soldiers, and she would have been killed after she issued the order, or the new ruler would actually be the one who orchestrated the slaughter, with her as a pawn. I eagerly await the next time she pulls this trick on someone who has something she wants, like a Sansa, or a Jon Snow. Though I'm afraid she will get a free moral pass in the form of a devious dwarf advisor who will take the necessary controversial decisions and shoulder the blame, leaving her snow white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutethunder Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 I eagerly await the next time she pulls this trick on someone who has something she wants, like a Sansa, or a Jon Snow. Though I'm afraid she will get a free moral pass in the form of a devious dwarf advisor who will take the necessary controversial decisions and shoulder the blame, leaving her snow white. Which is why I hope that the others one the way to Dany gets there first Why would she trust a Lannister above the others? He could say that he killed Tywin, and that makes him a kinslayer. I can't remember what Karstark said about kinslayers before he was beheaded, but I'm sure it wasn't any good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Spidey Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Which is why I hope that the others one the way to Dany gets there first Why would she trust a Lannister above the others? He could say that he killed Tywin, and that makes him a kinslayer. I can't remember what Karstark said about kinslayers before he was beheaded, but I'm sure it wasn't any good. Sure, but she hated Tywin, one of the ursurper's dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Sure, but she hated Tywin, one of the ursurper's dogs.And everyone hated Aerys. Jaime wasn't even his kin. Did not prevent Ned from despising him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roza Ahai Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 They were slavers. They got what they deserved. I don't think it is a good reason to kill people. I am against killing patricians only because they are patricians. She came as a conqueror. She doesn't have to pay. Errand Band gave a good explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemrion Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 She came as a conqueror. She doesn't have to pay. No. She accepted their hospitality and then broke it. She's no better than the guest that murders the host ala the Black Brothers and Craster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suffix Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 No. She accepted their hospitality and then broke it. She's no better than the guest that murders the host ala the Black Brothers and Craster. YEA!! I hope whomever betrays her does it with extreme prejudice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mashiara Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 They were slavers. They got what they deserved. She came as a conqueror. She doesn't have to pay. That's one of the reasons I dislike Danny. Not many people see her as doing something wrong when she commits these actions. She's not the holier than thou queen that people make her to be. She tricked the merchants and stole the Unsullied but we all act as if that's perfectly moral because she's the hero that will come and save Westeros. Well, I don't like it and I don't like her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Useless Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 She came as a conqueror. She doesn't have to pay. One of the first things we learned about Westeros is that everyone, from the lowliest deserter of the Nightwatch to the king of the realm, pays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Targaryen Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 Yes, Dany was in the wrong wrt the Astapor scene, at least from a contract law perspective. People bring up arguments to defend her (She was selling a dangerous animal. It was the slaver's fault that they didn't know how to control it.) but they usually fail (Dany ordered Drogon to attack the slavers. Do these animal sellers order their former animals to attack the buyers?). However, from a greater good perspective, she was in the right. What she left in Astapor did not work out, but that I attribute to Dany being 15 and can easily forgive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 So, the end does justify the means? Why is it this defense is only acceptable for "good guys"? I'm referring, for example, to the countless debates about Jaime Lannister's oathbreaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a_homeless_harpy Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 So, the end does justify the means?] Yes, for positive characters. It's the part of the literary formula. They want to do good things after all; even if they murder a man it's usually just the best thing to be done. Astapor slavers were guilty of worse attrocities, such as turning innocent boys into ultimate killing machines using drugs and inhuman training. Who knows what use they intended for the dragon. Dany couldn't be perceived as less pure by murdering them. The real challenge would be a scene in which Dany kills, let's say, Tyrion. I don't know if Martin has a courage to write such a scene but, after all, he turned Catelyn into UnCat and also the reputation of the Targaryens was presented as not particularly chivalrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Other-in-law Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 Why is it this defense is only acceptable for "good guys"? I'm referring, for example, to the countless debates about Jaime Lannister's oathbreaking. Personally, I defend both Dany and Jaime on those particular charges. Not recently about the Kingslaying, but I remember participating in a rather long and ugly thread about it last summer, with Enguerrand as chief prosecutor. And there have been plenty before, too. As for Dany's view of Tyrion's kinslaying, there's some evidence that she's a bit more open-minded than most people in the setting. She's willing to light candles to gods from completely different pantheons, so she's no religious fanatic, and there's a refreshing tendency to do whatever she damned well pleases, conventional wisdom notwithstanding: "It is known." "Not to me." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a_homeless_harpy Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 As for Dany's view of Tyrion's kinslaying, there's some evidence that she's a bit more open-minded than most people in the setting. She's willing to light candles to gods from completely different pantheons, so she's no religious fanatic, and there's a refreshing tendency to do whatever she damned well pleases, conventional wisdom notwithstanding: "It is known." "Not to me." Tyrion could be killed on Dany's order not because of parricide (after all Dany herself killed her husband, call it euthanasia or not) but because of her general dislike of "Usurper's dogs". I consider it rather unlikely, though, it was just an example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roza Ahai Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 Yes, for positive characters. It's the part of the literary formula. They want to do good things after all; even if they murder a man it's usually just the best thing to be done. Astapor slavers were guilty of worse attrocities, such as turning innocent boys into ultimate killing machines using drugs and inhuman training. Who knows what use they intended for the dragon. Dany couldn't be perceived as less pure by murdering them. The real challenge would be a scene in which Dany kills, let's say, Tyrion. I don't know if Martin has a courage to write such a scene but, after all, he turned Catelyn into UnCat and also the reputation of the Targaryens was presented as not particularly chivalrous. Freys, Tywin also wanted to do good things after all. Freys wanted to protect their honour, Tywin to end the war as soon as possible. Northeners got what they deserved, they are oathbreakers. I could understand as a good thing if Dany freed the Unsullied, but actually she is going to use them as killing mashines in her war for her good. Those future wars are not good for Unsullied. Astapor slavers also wanted to do good things, they wanted to protect their city against conquerors like Dany and they bought innocent boys with the price, they did not steal them, those innocent boys were captured by dothrakis and sold to the slavers. In this world not the law has the right, but only the power. Some powerful characters do really sometimes disgusting things and they are not my heroes because they can do the same good in different way. Dany is one of them. She thinks only about revenge, her rights, she does not think about the rights of Westeroses, who she's going to conquer, how many people, including women and children, will be burnt by dragon fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Other-in-law Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 In this world not the law has the right, but only the power. Some powerful characters do really sometimes disgusting things and they are not my heroes because they can do the same good in different way. Dany is one of them. She thinks only about revenge, her rights, she does not think about the rights of Westeroses, who she's going to conquer, how many people, including women and children, will be burnt by dragon fire. Oh, you have got to be kidding. "She thinks only about revenge, her rights"? She thinks about the rights of those Unsullied, and the children they are forced to murder, and those children's mothers. Apparently, she's the only one to think about actually doing anything to put an end to the hideous slave trade. Ignoring that is about as willful a distortion imaginable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roza Ahai Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 Patricians in Roma were also slavers. That does not mean thet they deserve to be murdered. It is not the best method to stop the slave trade by killing slavers and stealing their slaves. Now, they are her slaves. She proclaimed that they belong to her. She is one of the slavers. She did not let them go, she is going to use them in her wars for her good. She left many children without their fathers when she killed slavers. Yes, she thinks about revenge, her rights in Westeros, she does not think that many people will be burnt by dragon fire and by Unsullied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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