Footy time again!

[cteresa]

[quote name='dajamieson' post='1308760' date='Apr 10 2008, 11.49']Though I suppose if you combined all of the quarter finalists together you might just scrape together an English team....providing you don't need substitutes and you don't mind Peter Crouch as manager;)[/quote]

I was all interested and impressed at ohhhhhh an english player playing for a foreign club in the CL ( not counting Real Madrid and not counting Hargreaves as english) and scoring in a quarter final, but apparently Kazim-Richards now plays for Turkey?!? there goes that bit of trivia. I think it matters. Players which look good and efficient playing for their clubs with their foreign teammates seem to have no adaptability with each other in the national team. I assume that when you play for a foreign club you got to adapt to something different, that the foreigner are asked more of than nationals, the experience can improve a player, give him at least more experience in adapting. and the prices of english players are crazy and seem to only go up - heard about english tests for non EU players, plus of course the existing work permits. That is football protectionism (not complaining, gives other european clubs an edge at signing not quite excellent players) but that is only going to raise prices for english players and mean even less play outside their country. Less than zero is zero for this purposes, but reduces chances surely.

DJ, this might be just me, but getting a game on tv with commentary in a language I don´t understand is usually a plus :) this way there will be no nationalistic generalizations, no stupid comments and mis-pronunciation.

so uefa cup tonight. i wanted to see sporting-rangers but not sure if I will be able to ( and me changing plans because of a sporting game in the quarter finals of the *uefa* cup, pfh, no).

[Jon AS]

[quote name='cteresa']this way there will be no nationalistic generalizations, no stupid comments and mis-pronunciation.[/quote]

German commentators usually aren't that bad at pronouncing foreign names (they really seem to take the time to learn this stuff) but they are otherwise so incompetent and completely [i]boring[/i] that I think a bit of nationalism would make them more interesting to listen to. Of course, there is every chance that that would create some kind of scandal and get the guy in question fired, so maybe they are just playing it safe...

[The Inquisitor]

When I watch footie I turn the TV to mute and hear the radio instead.

They say the same idiocies, but it generally is far more entertaining. Lots of jokes, more comments than on TV, opinions clash, and you get all the results of games playing at the same time.

Besides in the station I hear they get the comments of people who actually know what this is about: Del Bosque, Radomir Antic etc. Not only journalists who have no idea or former football players that are clueless and have no tactical accumen.

[cteresa]

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1308776' date='Apr 10 2008, 12.25']German commentators usually aren't that bad at pronouncing foreign names (they really seem to take the time to learn this stuff) but they are otherwise so incompetent and completely [i]boring[/i] that I think a bit of nationalism would make them more interesting to listen to. Of course, there is every chance that that would create some kind of scandal and get the guy in question fired, so maybe they are just playing it safe...[/quote]

eheh. without knowing, my bet is portuguese names can be surprisingly different in pronounciation than what foreigners expect. it´s not spanish ;) ( for example Nani, no foreigners seem to get his name right, just too syllables. Nuno Gomes grrrr they insist on pronouncing it as Gomez. Ronaldinho, let´s not even get there).

oh and worse than nationalism is when they read some tourist board brochures and insist on bringing up pointless trivia. urgh, just the footie please.

BTW the blandness is also evident in portuguese tv commentators, at least since this guy died, all supposedly neutral and intellectual "i say, goal" but some of the pretentious technical terminology is just grr.

Radio, oh good idea. My grandfather did that as well, he was addicted to hearing games on the radio like since the beginning of radio, always on the same channel, he wore out a bit of transistors . I know those voices very well - actually the short news programme every day which has been going on for decades is still very good. I will miss those voices when they retire. But they speak so fast it sort of distracts me to pay attention. I sometimes listen to radio while driving ( but never you know, games from my team because I don´t want to be nervous when driving) and the local radios following minor league games can be a lot of fun. I lucked out once hearing the narration of a game whose sta, ahem field, field is the right word is right by the river Tagus and the balls kept falling there, so while the narration was going on speculation on where the balls were by now and how long it would be till the next one fell over. Campeonatos distritais, could not be invented :thumbsup:

[Jon AS]

[quote name='cteresa']BTW the blandness is also evident in portuguese tv commentators[/quote]

I guess some things are truly universal.

I love to listen to the Bundesliga conference on saturday afternoons on one of the regional public radio stations. It's a brilliant mess, switching between six different games, and constant interruptions of the "current" one when one of the other reporters breaks in with "Goal in Hamburg" or "penalty in Dortmund" and then they switch over to [i]that[/i] guy and he has to explain how the situation developed, but before he is properly finished the listener is whisked away to the next location where something exciting has happened or is about to happen.

[quote name='cteresa']eheh. without knowing, my bet is portuguese names can be surprisingly different in pronounciation than what foreigners expect. it´s not spanish ;) ( for example Nani, no foreigners seem to get his name right, just too syllables. Nuno Gomes grrrr they insist on pronouncing it as Gomez. Ronaldinho, let´s not even get there).[/quote]

I [i]think[/i] they get even the Portuguese mostly right (though now I am curious how Ronaldinho is pronounced. Got any links where I could listen to an example?) and they are certainly much better at it than any English commentator I've ever heard (it certainly helps that vowels in German sound very similar to their Italian or Spanish counterparts, contrary to English).

[cteresa]

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1308803' date='Apr 10 2008, 13.09']I [i]think[/i] they get even the Portuguese mostly right (though now I am curious how Ronaldinho is pronounced. Got any links where I could listen to an example?) and they are certainly much better at it than any English commentator I've ever heard (it certainly helps that vowels in German sound very similar to their Italian or Spanish counterparts, contrary to English).[/quote]

portuguese vowels are on their own - nasalization I guess ;) and portuguese does have a lot of vowel and diphtong sounds, spanish has just the 5, portuguese has 12 or 13. Try saying João and we will see ;) Ronaldinho, usually the problems with pronouncing it are the R which in portuguese starting a word should be rolled (how much varies with accent), the first o which brazillian style should be very open, and the -inho bit which is nasal and not the same as -ino. video, I am thinking of one posted a while ago of the first Ronaldo being himself (best teenager in football ever) and the brazillian commentator going all "menino Ronaldinho". very cute, I will try to find it for all sorts of different reasons. BTW Ronaldo´s stats with Cruzeiro are sort of unbelievable.

btw, for chelsea fans, what has Paulo Ferreira done to Avram Grant?!? He is not a world great but he is pretty decent, consistent and steady and he is IMO better than Belleti for sure. Playing Essien that place seems like a waste. oh well, at least he gets rested for the euro.

[Ser Sean]

[quote name='dajamieson' post='1308760' date='Apr 10 2008, 11.49']> Now now, just coz the Jocks will never win owt!

Not like Engerlund are going to either:p

Though I suppose if you combined all of the quarter finalists together you might just scrape together an English team....providing you don't need substitutes and you don't mind Peter Crouch as manager;)[/quote]

You're being a bit harsh on Man Utd there mate. There were at least 7 english players in the squad and 6 of them played in the game.

Celtic (Scotlands most successful team in europe) only started with 5 Scottish players against Motherwell on Sat, FYI. ;)

[Jon AS]

[quote name='cteresa']portuguese vowels are on their own - nasalization I guess ;) and portuguese does have a lot of vowel and diphtong sounds, spanish has just the 5, portuguese has 12 or 13. Try saying João and we will see ;)[/quote]

Sorry, I meant to say the easier Portuguese ones (Gomes seems pretty straightforward, really); "João" looks scary.;)

[quote name='cteresa']Ronaldinho, usually the problems with pronouncing it are the R which in portuguese starting a word should be rolled (how much varies with accent), the first o which brazillian style should be very open, and the -inho bit which is nasal and not the same as -ino.[/quote]

I think I've got it pretty much right then, though rolling the R is something one easily forgets.

[quote name='cteresa']BTW Ronaldo´s stats with Cruzeiro are sort of unbelievable.[/quote]

I think his stats everywhere he played before his knee injury were quite unbelievable.

As was the fact that he left Barca for Internazionale.;)

[mormont]

[quote name='Ser Sean' post='1308851' date='Apr 10 2008, 13.54']Celtic (Scotlands most successful team in europe) only started with 5 Scottish players against Motherwell on Sat, FYI. ;)[/quote]

I'll leave daj, the 'Gers fan, to disagree with your parenthesis and point out that 5 is 4 more than they used to start with. :P Rangers have a lot more Scots these days too.

This is an absolute gem of a story and I know JonAS will love it:

[url="http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,8652_3406873,00.html"]http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,8...3406873,00.html[/url]

[quote]Jens Lehmann claims he could have prevented Arsenal from going out of the Champions League, if only he had been given a chance.

"I stayed here to win the Champions League and I saw good chances to play, but I have not had these (chances) and that makes me very angry," he said.

"For me personally, it is a tragedy, particularly since I did not have a chance to prevent it," he said.

"I have had such thoughts (about being able to prevent defeats) ever since the coach took me out of the team following the 0-0 against Milan."[/quote]

[quote]"To be sitting on the bench behind somebody who only started to play when he was 30 is not funny," he added.

"I am very angry."

Furthermore, Lehmann feels he has been treated badly by Wenger, claiming he has not been given a fair chance.

He said: "If the coach had spoken to me before the start of the season then I would have been able to decide if I wanted to sit on the bench.

"He has a different opinion and I don't really believe he can be happy with it."[/quote]

I love that last line. Deep down, Wenger knows he was wrong to drop the mighty Lehmann! Anything else is inconceivable!

[Jon AS]

[quote name='mormont']I love that last line. Deep down, Wenger knows he was wrong to drop the mighty Lehmann! Anything else is inconceivable![/quote]

:lol:

Wonderful! Why is it that top level goalkeepers seem to have the biggest egos of all football players? Or is that just in Germany? We have Kahn, Lehmann and (oddly enough) Rost and Wiese who all think they are God's gift to humanity...

[koudoulis]

mormont,

i seem to have heard it before but i cant quite place it, but is the topic subtitle from mike basset-england manager ?

[mormont]

koudoulis: no, totally on the wrong track.

Jon: well they say you have to be a bit nuts to be a goalkeeper and it certainly must take a bit of ego to be a good one. Still, Lehmann is in a league of his own there: I sense that the time on the bench has weighed on his mind a little. :P

[cteresa]

Oh, I think German goalkeepers are on a class of their own. Cherish that. And honestly, it keeps us all entertained ;)

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1308859' date='Apr 10 2008, 14.02']Sorry, I meant to say the easier Portuguese ones (Gomes seems pretty straightforward, really); "João" looks scary.;)[/quote]
Gomes, ok - but just wanring it´s very different from Gomez, in both syllables ;) João is one of the most common portuguese first names. I guess scary depends on point of view. I pretty much thought Skrtel was a misspelling. or a joke. Vowels, better a bit too much than too little ;)


[quote name='Jon AS' post='1308859' date='Apr 10 2008, 14.02']As was the fact that he left Barca for Internazionale.;)[/quote]

Ah, by Barcelona standards, extremely respectable. Maradona leaving Barcelona for Napoli ( and loving it) just set the precedent. In fact, I wonder, does the bigger the star the less-elegant the way they leave Barcelona? It´s like seeing somebody whose love affairs always end up in catastrophe. The big stars, all of them, somehow the love and admiration never lasts. last time I was in Barcelona was just over a year ago, Ronaldinho´s face was everywhere to sell everything, and now sounds like another ended love affair.

PS - plus, you know Barcelona hype themselves much more, but at the time Ronaldo left, arguably Inter´s pedigree was a little bit better. They are not Napoli, and by my book as much right to be an european great ( even if we stick the number in single figures) as Barcelona.

PPS - I give in, will try. I just don´t get any british pop culture reference but a shot in the dark, Monty Python? like maybe in sketches of the philosopher´s ( blame it on Socrates) and the footballer´s getting interviewed? Pretty sure there must be something quotable in one of those. and wasn´t terry pratchett supposed to write a discworld book on football? I remember hearing he was writing it years ago, probably football turned out to be too absurd even for him..

[Mathis]

[quote name='cteresa' post='1308768' date='Apr 10 2008, 12.17']heard about english tests for non EU players, plus of course the existing work permits.[/quote]

What do you have against work permits for non-EU players? People from other walks of life have to get them, why should football players be exempt?

The idea that football should be exempt from international laws has always seemed odd to me. I'm talking specifically about Sepp Blatter's futile attempts to impose quotas on foreign players in club football. It makes me laugh everytime some EU spokesman slaps him down with legislation about freedom of movement :lol: . What a cretin.

[The Inquisitor]

[quote name='Mathis' post='1308930' date='Apr 10 2008, 16.22']The idea that football should be exempt from international laws has always seemed odd to me. I'm talking specifically about Sepp Blatter's futile attempts to impose quotas on foreign players in club football. It makes me laugh everytime some EU spokesman slaps him down with legislation about freedom of movement :lol: . What a cretin.[/quote]


Yeah, the Bosman law is precisely about that. If the whole european mankind (sic) is free to move between countries and enjoy the same treatment as nationals when apiring for a job and within that job, why should football be exempt?

It isn't.

All and all working for a football club is the same as working in any other industry.

Something that Blatter has yet to grasp. Maybe its because he is a Swiss... bloody capitalist. :P

[cteresa]

[quote name='Mathis' post='1308930' date='Apr 10 2008, 15.22']What do you have against work permits for non-EU players? People from other walks of life have to get them, why should football players be exempt?

The idea that football should be exempt from international laws has always seemed odd to me. I'm talking specifically about Sepp Blatter's futile attempts to impose quotas on foreign players in club football. It makes me laugh everytime some EU spokesman slaps him down with legislation about freedom of movement :lol: . What a cretin.[/quote]

I totally agree with you about Blatter wanting to call back Bosman. It´s not possible, and it´s WRONG, freedom of movement is an european right.

About non-EU citizens, yes countries can impose their own laws, I am not at all against the work permits . I actually think those are GOOD for smaller clubs in other european countries which have no restriction. I do think it is protectionism, if that is good or bad morally or from an economics point of view, I guess it is complicated. I think it might influence the price of English players.

Also, another point it is worth thinking about that when people wonder why English clubs do not do well in the UEFA cup (sort of. I don´t think they do that bad). Basically the permit is automatic for non-EU player who has played a percentage of games for his national team who is on the top 70 of the FIFA rankings? Now you can have excellent players ( from Brazil or Argentina mostly, must be said. oh yeah specially brazillians) who would not. People like Deco, Luis Fabiano, Anderson, Diego, Pepe, Daniel Alves, Lucho Gonzalez, Lisandro Lopez, just to name a few, which were relatively unknown when they moved to Europe. This would have been the sort of not-expensive below the notice of the big clubs players which turned out to be very good indeed. Deco and Daniel Alves all had important contributions to winning the UEFA cup at least in the last few seasons. If work permits are hindering the competitivity of England´s (and Scotland s and ok, Cardiff maybe?) UEFA cup teams, personally not my concern at all. Their problem, their laws, they got every right to impose work permits as they wish. Me, I just like to think how that effects other things, no wish to see it changed ;)

[Mathis]

[quote name='cteresa' post='1308956' date='Apr 10 2008, 15.53']Also, another point it is worth thinking about that when people wonder why English clubs do not do well in the UEFA cup (sort of. I don´t think they do that bad). Basically the permit is automatic for non-EU player who has played a percentage of games for his national team who is on the top 70 of the FIFA rankings? Now you can have excellent players ( from Brazil or Argentina mostly, must be said. oh yeah specially brazillians) who would not. People like Deco, Luis Fabiano, Anderson, Diego, Pepe, Daniel Alves, Lucho Gonzalez, Lisandro Lopez, just to name a few, which were relatively unknown when they moved to Europe. This would have been the sort of not-expensive below the notice of the big clubs players which turned out to be very good indeed. Deco and Daniel Alves all had important contributions to winning the UEFA cup at least in the last few seasons. If work permits are hindering the competitivity of England´s (and Scotland s and ok, Cardiff maybe?) UEFA cup teams, personally not my concern at all. Their problem, their laws, they got every right to impose work permits as they wish. Me, I just like to think how that effects other things, no wish to see it changed ;)[/quote]


Good point, I never thought of that. Might explain England's poor showing in the UEFA cup.

But it doesn't really answer my question. Removing permits would probably help England's football clubs but why should they get that help when other industries have to follow the rules? What makes football so special?

[cteresa]

[quote name='Mathis' post='1308975' date='Apr 10 2008, 16.11']Good point, I never thought of that. Might explain England's poor showing in the UEFA cup.[/quote]

Maybe, could be just a blip. But in the UEFA cup is sometimes where some non-heralded players do show off and reach fame. Not a lot of such Brazillians ( Elano? Rochemback?) in the smaller english clubs.

But it´s noticeable how much money even smaller english clubs do, it s pretty nice for the rest that they are less likely to compete for some players and do not raise prices! Also I do think it is a factor on the prices of some seemingly very-unremarkable english players .

ah, huge market for fake or legitimate EU passports for brazillians. if they got an italian grandfather, it´s brilliant. Portuguese passports are not that simple, one grandfather is not enough, but for brazillians there is a special discount, 5 years residency will do ;)

[quote name='Mathis' post='1308975' date='Apr 10 2008, 16.11']But it doesn't really answer my question. Removing permits would probably help England's football clubs but why should they get that help when other industries have to follow the rules? What makes football so special?[/quote]
One possible argument for the clubs would be that the market is already liberalized (sort of) in the "markets" they are competing with, that middle sized spanish clubs got an advantage by being able to recruit far more widely worldwide ( Spain has decided to honor this Africa-pacific-caribbean nations treaty which now do not count as foreigners, which apparently also pleased very much south american players who now got less competition for the non-eu places. ah got it, Cotonou agreement). From a non-sports point of view, the idea that every worker, footballer, athlete, bus driver is to be treated equally, it seems fair. There are often some exceptions for sports ( and arts, ballet and opera and musicians. and I guess scientific research as well), but not sure there are morally good reasons to do so. BTW another example of footballers demanding basic work rights, the players of Boavista are threatening to go on strike this weekend. They have not been paid anything, salaries or prizes, in quite a while. When we talk of football we tend to spend almost all our time talking of say 0.01% of the players, the footballer´s union in Portugal sure has lots to do with all the rest.

[Jon AS]

[quote name='cteresa']but for brazillians there is a special discount, 5 years residency will do ;)[/quote]

And then they can play for Portugal! :P

[cteresa]

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1309012' date='Apr 10 2008, 16.36']And then they can play for Portugal! :P[/quote]

Only two! ( ok, 4 if you want to call all time, all history!)! And Brazil did not want them, they needed homes.

Plus if we go by grandfather or ancestor thing, if you go back long enough pretty much all of them could have played for Portugal! and they took Carmen Miranda anyway. ( Roberto Leal, ahem they are welcome to him. But a woman who can dance on those shoes, wow).