Israel to pull out of Gaza

[Vendetto]

[quote name='Dinsdale!' post='1654774' date='Jan 19 2009, 20.15']So Hamas didn't shoot the rockets? And if they didn't shoot the rockets why do they keep saying they shot the rockets, and that they will continue to shoot the rockets?

Who did shoot the rockets then?[/quote]

And who is claiming responsibility on behalf of Hamas?

[Ser King]

[url="http://palestinethinktank.com/2009/01/16/gazan-doctors-children-killed-while-he-is-speaking-to-israeli-tv/"]Gazan Doctor's children killed while he is speaking to Israeli TV[/url]

[Vendetto]

[quote name='Ser Wolf King' post='1654794' date='Jan 19 2009, 20.31'][url="http://palestinethinktank.com/2009/01/16/gazan-doctors-children-killed-while-he-is-speaking-to-israeli-tv/"]Gazan Doctor's children killed while he is speaking to Israeli TV[/url][/quote]
Terrible, and a tragedy to be sure, but still, casualties of war.

[Shryke]

[quote]Terrible, and a tragedy to be sure, but still, casualties of war.[/quote]
Just like those Israelis killed by rocket fire.

[Vendetto]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1654800' date='Jan 19 2009, 20.39']Just like those Israelis killed by rocket fire.[/quote]


Ah, but the Israelis weren't at war at the time. There was a Cease fire. Hamas provoked Israel.

Hamas hides behind UN schools, and hospitals, and in innocent people's homes. Like I said before, if the innocent people of Gaza and Palestine want to end the bloodshed, they should rise up and toss Hamas out on their posteriors.

[Ser King]

[quote name='Vendetto' post='1654746' date='Jan 19 2009, 22.54']They have been letting aide in.


I'm sure the Japanese have said the same in the past, and the vietnamese, and the koreans, and every other group of innocent people who were victims of collateral damage in wars.[/quote]


Israel kept out aid for Gaza



Jason Koutsoukis in Jerusalem
January 19, 2009
Page 1 of 2 | Single page
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ISRAEL deliberately blocked the United Nations from building up vital food supplies in Gaza that feed a million people daily before the launch of its war against Hamas, according to a senior UN official in Jerusalem.

In a scathing critique of Israeli actions leading up to the conflict, the UN's chief humanitarian co-ordinator in Israel, the former Australian diplomat Maxwell Gaylard, accused Israel of failing to honour its commitments to open its border with Gaza during several months of truce from June 19 last year.

"The Israelis would not let us facilitate a regular and sufficient flow of supplies into the Strip," Mr Gaylard said.

The chief spokesman for Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Yigal Palmor, said the claims were "unqualified bull****".

"At no time was there a shortage of food in Gaza over the past three weeks," Mr Palmor said.

Mr Gaylard, who is the UN Special Co-ordinator's Office's most senior representative in Israel, told the Herald that when Israel launched its surprise attack on Gaza on December 27, the UN's warehouses in Gaza were nearly empty, with all food and equipment sitting in nearby port facilities. "The food was in Israel but we couldn't get it in. This is before. The blockade was very tight."

[url="http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2009/01/18/1232213448835.html"]Read on....... [/url]

[Shryke]

[quote name='Vendetto' post='1654805' date='Jan 19 2009, 22.41']Ah, but the Israelis weren't at war at the time. There was a Cease fire. Hamas provoked Israel.[/quote]

What's the difference between the apparent "no war" state before Israel attacked and now? More dead civilians?

[Ser King]

[quote name='Vendetto' post='1654805' date='Jan 19 2009, 23.41']Ah, but the Israelis weren't at war at the time. There was a Cease fire. Hamas provoked Israel.

Hamas hides behind UN schools, and hospitals, and in innocent people's homes. Like I said before, if the innocent people of Gaza and Palestine want to end the bloodshed, they should rise up and toss Hamas out on their posteriors.[/quote]


Well waiting and listen to the news up here and the media is telling everyone the truce is still on and quiet, totally ignoring the Israeli naval attack on the towns while more countries meet in the region over the ceasefire.

How can the jews be so blantant and wave the red flag in the bull's face and not expect to eventually get a big backlash so they can cry some more phoney perecution tears?

[Ser King]

[size=5][url="http://52.thelastoutpost.com/video-2/zionist-jewism/zionist-war-crimes.html"]Zionist War CrimesThe Case For The ProsecutionGenocide In Palestine[/url][/size]

[turinturambar]

[quote name='Ser Wolf King' post='1654813' date='Jan 19 2009, 22.54'][size=5][url="http://52.thelastoutpost.com/video-2/zionist-jewism/zionist-war-crimes.html"]Zionist War CrimesThe Case For The ProsecutionGenocide In Palestine[/url][/size][/quote]
:bang:

[Vendetto]

LOL I love the antisemitism.

Israel was provoked. Plain and simple. It's for them to decide how much they beat down on Hamas.

Let's see some more emotion over other countries. How about the Democratic Republic of Congo? And their genocides?

Somalia?

Bosnia?

China?

The list goes on and on.

[Ser Reptitious]

*Sigh* Let the recriminations begin...


If only both sides would realize that playing the victim and blaming the other side while committing less than savoury acts themselves will never stop this senseless violence!

Ultimately it is the civilians on both sides that suffer. It's not the inhabitants of Sderot that are responsible for the crippling blockade of Gaza, yet they suffer the rockets fired by Hamas and others. It is not the inhabitants of Gaza that are responsible for the firing of rockets by Hamas and others, yet it's their houses that are destroyed and their families that are killed when Israel decides to respond to the challenge of the rocket fire.

As I have said before, both sides remind me of children fighting in a sandbox. What is needed to resolve this dispute is an adult. Unfortunately, the adult in this scenario, the United States, has been playing blatant favourites in the last 8 years, which certainly does not help the situation. It is my sincere hope that the new administration will finally try to grab both sides by the scruffs of their necks, sit them down and talk things out until a viable solution is found.

However, independent of all that, if I were Israel, I would send in tons of humanitarian aid and perhaps even offer to help civilians rebuild their homes. It won't make the bitterness of the Palestinians go away entirely, but it might show that Israel really does care about the civilians caught in the middle of its fight with Hamas, and it might serve to undercut Hamas to some extent. Unfortunately, if the past (such as 2006 Lebanon) is any indication, Israel will once again leave the rebuilding entirely to its enemies (and thereby helping them win the PR war with the population of the affected areas).

[Malatesta]

[quote name='Vendetto' post='1654745' date='Jan 20 2009, 10.53']Hmmm, I'm deluded? So you're saying that it's wrong for a group, that's recognized by many countries as terrorist, to get their ass kicked by Israel for shooting rockets into Israel? Wow.[/quote]

I'm saying you seem not to be able to comprehend basic moral principles or international law.

For me firing rockets and invading Gaza are both crimes.
For you only one of them is a crime and the other is an 'ass kicking'.

[quote]According to Israel, hamas broke the original cease fire, and even continued firing rockets into Israel AFTER the new one was made.[/quote]

No according to Israel there were something along the lines of 19 rockets a month (or total) shot during the ceasefire and none of them were attributed to Hamas. Israel broke the ceasefire by killing half a dozen members of Hamas - it just doesn't get reported on the television you watch.

[quote]If the people of Palestine want the bloodshed to end, they need to rise up and throw Hamas out.[/quote]

Again this is just you not being able to comprehend what aggression is.

[Ser King]

[quote]LOL I love the antisemitism.[/quote]

:rolleyes:

[quote]Israel was provoked. Plain and simple. It's for them to decide how much they beat down on Hamas.

Let's see some more emotion over other countries. How about the Democratic Republic of Congo? And their genocides?

Somalia?

Bosnia?

China?

The list goes on and on.[/quote]


We're not talking about those, but they are just as bad.

[Malatesta]

[quote name='Dinsdale!' post='1654774' date='Jan 20 2009, 11.15']So Hamas didn't shoot the rockets? And if they didn't shoot the rockets why do they keep saying they shot the rockets, and that they will continue to shoot the rockets?

Who did shoot the rockets then?[/quote]

Hamas didn't shoot rockets during the 2008 ceasefire, again, according to the Israeli government.
Hamas started shooting rockets [b]after[/b] Israel resumed killing it's members.

They have fired plenty of them in the last three weeks but they didn't fire any during the ceasefire

[quote name='Vendetto' post='1654805' date='Jan 20 2009, 11.41']Hamas hides behind UN schools, and hospitals, and in innocent people's homes.[/quote]

You can read the same thing in the Nazi archives about the French. I'm sure you bleat out the same little pieces of fantasy when Israel attack southern Lebanon.


[quote]It's for them to decide how much they beat down on Hamas.[/quote]

Ok so you have just said in plain English that it is ok for Israel to commit massive war crimes like the shelling of a densely populated civilian area - which they already blockade in a vice grip.

In other words you are a complete hypocrite, you have no understanding of fundamental moral principles and you are an idiot that we can start to ignore.

[一方通行]

[url="http://img37.picoodle.com/img/img37/3/1/19/f_12320718101m_5cb2d71.png"]these threads always turn out the same dont they?[/url]

[Ser Reptitious]

[quote name='Vendetto']LOL I love the antisemitism.[/quote]

[quote name='Malatesta']In other words you are a complete hypocrite, you have no understanding of fundamental moral principles and you are an idiot that we can start to ignore.[/quote]

For fuck's sake guys, it's comments like these that will get this thread closed once again in a hurry! I realize that this is an emotional topic, but can you at least [i]try[/i] to keep your focus on the issues, rather than personal attacks? Some of us are actually interested in discussing this issue, not just in trading snarky and inflammatory comments back and forth. If that's all you want to do, why don't you exchange your pleasantries on PM where no one else has to see it?

[snake]

[quote]Hamas didn't shoot rockets during the 2008 ceasefire, again, according to the Israeli government.
Hamas started shooting rockets after Israel resumed killing it's members.

They have fired plenty of them in the last three weeks but they didn't fire any during the ceasefire[/quote]

Can you provide a link for that?

[quote]For fuck's sake guys, it's comments like these that will get this thread closed once again in a hurry! I realize that this is an emotional topic, but can you at least try to keep your focus on the issues, rather than personal attacks? Some of us are actually interested in discussing this issue, not just in trading snarky and inflammatory comments back and forth. If that's all you want to do, why don't you exchange your pleasantries on PM where no one else has to see it?[/quote]

Don't hold your breath. We've got too many people who are rabid in their dislike for the other side.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

snake -- David Fuller's interview with Mark Regev for More4 news: [url="http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1554364155"]http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1554364155[/url]
(Called "Israeli View", if that's not a direct link.)

As the video shows, Mr Regev agrees that no rockets were fired by Hamas from the ceasefire in June 2008 until after November 4th, when Israel launched an attack to destroy a (Hamas?) tunnel. However, that tunnel was taken as a direct threat to Israel's safety and security, and was seen as an end to the ceasefire in and of itself. (Ceasefire in the "each side of the conflict agrees with the other to suspend aggressive actions" definition, rather than the actual non-firing of munitions definition.)

[Malatesta]

[quote name='Ser Reptitious' post='1654858' date='Jan 20 2009, 12.48']For fuck's sake guys, it's comments like these that will get this thread closed once again in a hurry! I realize that this is an emotional topic, but can you at least [i]try[/i] to keep your focus on the issues, rather than personal attacks?[/quote]

Look if you cannot raise yourself to a bare minimum of morality like not being a complete hypocrite then you shouldn't talk in the first place.

Hamas firing rockets - crime
Israel attacking Gaza - crime

[quote]Some of us are actually interested in discussing this issue, not just in trading snarky and inflammatory comments back and forth.[/quote]

How can you discuss the issue if you just repeat the television? How can you discuss the issue if you don't understand that when Israel attack Hamas the entire Arab world recognises it as an open attack on the Palestinian people and numbers like 350+ dead children, shelled UN schools, etc, etc seem to agree with them.

If the discussion reduces back to the idea that shelling civilians with the most powerful army in the region is defense then it is a discussion reduced to fantasy.