Ouroboros Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 [quote name='Samalander' post='1655881' date='Jan 20 2009, 18.54']Again, equating a Democracy with a zealous Theocracy is just plain wrong. If you set aside the means and consider the ends there is no contest : 1) We want people to not fire rockets into our country. We want not to have to deal with Iranian outposts on our borders. We don't really want to rule anybody but ourselves. 2) They want to destroy Israel and kill Jews. They want to spread Islamic Law as far and wide as they can, by any means necessary (including force). They want to rule their people with an iron fist.[/quote] I wasn't equating two countries, I was equating two board members who keep flinging barbs at one another rather than discussing anything of substances. Which is all this is, you've taken my post, and used it as an excuse to make a dig at your opponent. I used to be on your side, now I just don't care. You're both acting rather revolting in equal measure over this admittedly quite contentious and controversial issue. No one deserves to be bombed, neither Israelis, nor Palestinians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Progressive Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='Ouroboros' post='1655901' date='Jan 20 2009, 15.11']I wasn't equating two countries, I was equating two board members who keep flinging barbs at one another rather than discussing anything of [b]substances[/b]. Which is all this is, you've taken my post, and used it as an excuse to make a dig at your opponent. I used to be on your side, now I just don't care. You're both acting rather revolting in equal measure over this admittedly quite contentious and controversial issue.[/quote] Did you missed post # 65? Your post # 95 share much similarities with the various points mentioned there. Also, if we're to play the role of board critic, it's helpful to be credible. Comments such as "Chomsky is a propagandist hypocrite and he shouldn't bother opening his mouth when it comes to the Israel-Palestinian conflict" sure aren't very substantive. ;) And I'm glad to read that somebody has abandoned the side of salamander ............ it has taken many posts from several boarders to reveal the inherent lies and racist assumptions sprouted by radical zionists. [quote]No one deserves to be bombed, neither Israelis, nor Palestinians.[/quote] Absofuckinglutely! Samalander, So you're basically arguing that despite being defiant for weeks against the mighty Israeli war machines, Hamas has suddenly lost the will the fight despite still having plenty of weapons and fighters, and that's why they're secretly honoring the cease-fire right now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meili Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='Pax Thien Jolie-Pitt' post='1655979' date='Jan 20 2009, 18.23']Did you missed post # 65? Your post # 95 share much similarities with the various points mentioned there. Also, if we're to play the role of board critic, it's helpful to be credible. Comments such as "Chomsky is a propagandist hypocrite and he shouldn't bother opening his mouth when it comes to the Israel-Palestinian conflict" sure aren't very substantive. ;) And I'm glad to read that somebody has abandoned the side of salamander ............ it has taken many posts from several boarders to reveal the inherent lies and racist assumptions sprouted by [b]radical zionists.[/b][/quote] I don't know why you keep calling anyone who disagrees with you a radical zionist. I haven't really seen anyone say or imply they want the State of Israel to not only strike back, but to expand it's borders. A 'modern zionist' view, maybe, but not a single post (TIR) has said basically that Gaza and the West Bank sould become part of Israel or that the settlements need to be permanent and/or expanded which would be radical. You also keep using it as an insulting term which kinda shows your colors on this one, I don't see anyone who is so strongly against you that they have called you a enabler of terrorism or a follower of Jihad. So maybe lumping someone who disagrees with in the far fringe of a political group, isn't a great way to really look at the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Progressive Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I don't have the time to comb through your various posts on all these threads, but rest assured Meili that I also included you along with Lynerana and salamander on the list of radical zionists. The term is being used here to describe posters who insist on the inherent right of Israel to possess the lands which it now occupied and have seized from the people originally living there prior to 1948. The term is also being used to describe Jews who think that Israel's offensive strategies and tactics are fair, or Jews who denied or objected to verified facts about the IDF massacres of Palestinians civilians, and/or Jews who posted that all Palestinians wanted was to commit terrorism because they're born that way. The term is also being used to describe Jews who think Israel has no responsibilities with what happened to the Palestinians and that they should be content living in open-air prisons and it's up to other Arab countries to take care of these dispossessed Palestinians. Last but not least, the term is also being used to describe Jews who don't think that dispossessed Arabs should be fairly compensated for their plights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G'Kar Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Pax has spoken. Don't worry Meili until he starts calling you an Israelite radical zionist. Then you know you are in trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meili Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='Pax Thien Jolie-Pitt' post='1656016' date='Jan 20 2009, 18.59']I don't have the time to comb through your various posts on all these threads, but rest assured Meili that I also included you along with Lynerana and salamander on the list of radical zionists.[/quote] I have no doubt as I said anyone who disagrees with you is an obvious 'radical' zionist. Although you have your definitions messed up a tad. Zionism is defined as an international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel. Okay. Sooooo let's see what you think it means [quote name='Pax Thien Jolie-Pitt' post='1656016' date='Jan 20 2009, 18.59']The term is being used [b]here[/b] to describe posters who insist on the inherent right of Israel to possess the lands which it now occupied and have seized from the people originally living there prior to 1948.[/quote] Not exactly radical but by your phrasing you appear like a radically biased anti to the state of Israel even existing. Makes your opions by default an extremist since anyone who disagrees is an extremist in your head and colors your points. [quote name='Pax Thien Jolie-Pitt' post='1656016' date='Jan 20 2009, 18.59']The term is also being used to describe Jews who think that Israel's offensive strategies and tactics are fair, or Jews who denied or objected to verified facts about the IDF massacres of Palestinians civilians, and/or Jews who posted that all Palestinians wanted was to commit terrorism because they're born that way.[/quote] Wow, well first it's not radical zionist to say an entire group of hundreds of thousands are 'born' with hatred and murder on their mind, has anyone here said that? Also it isn't 'radical' Zionism to say they think the actions taken by Israel is fair. Zionism is nothing but support for mordern day Israel, at all since no expansion or permanent action was declared, you have taken freely and are going to rather biased, as in making shit up, from the Hamas weekly standard. We'll skip the 'massacre' and 'genocide' comments, especially the ethnic cleaning ones. Almost offencsive when you should have the ability in the last 4 years to see real genocide take place, not to mention done to a certain group of people who had the largest genocide effort done to them in our grandparents lifetime. (How many threads have been in for Darfur or Bosnia?) [quote name='Pax Thien Jolie-Pitt' post='1656016' date='Jan 20 2009, 18.59']The term is also being used to describe Jews who think Israel has no responsibilities with what happened to the Palestinians and that they should be content living in open-air prisons and it's up to other Arab countries to take care of these dispossessed Palestinians.[/quote] Again, it has nothing to do with Zionism at all, it would be the belief of a large group of people and it's one not heard often. It is wondered why the Arab countries can't send a relif boat without the need to slip a rocket or 99 but by definition, zionism doesn't have anything in it about locking people up because their race. And since you hold you responsibility in ANYONE at all helping them BUT Israel, it makes you seem radical in using them as martyrs so the anti-Israeli tide catches a bigger swell. [quote name='Pax Thien Jolie-Pitt' post='1656016' date='Jan 20 2009, 18.59']Last but not least, the term is also being used to describe Jews who don't think that dispossessed Arabs should be fairly compensated for their plights.[/quote] Wow. Going out on a limb here. That has nothing to do with your phrasing at all. (Just checking, are the Swiss still paying Israel for money made from WW2?) You feel so bad hop on a relief boat, just try no to sit on the rockets at the bottom of a grain bag and don't go with a deep tan. You know them bloodthirsty Zionists, just looking to destroy Iranian boats for shit's and giggles and maybe a good kill to up the genocide toll a little bit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquireThomas Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote]Did you failed at critical thinking? If Israel planned the war months before even the last truce ended and orchestrated the resumption of attacks, it meant precisely that Israel's long term strategy has always been to educate the Palestinian civilian population on the mistake of electing Hamas with the strategy of collective punishment.[/quote] I guess I'll add military strategy to the long list of topics on which you're fatally uninformed. Various armies make plans for every scenario they can imagine, in case events make enacting them necessary. I'm sure the IDF has a detailed plan for what an invasion of Syria would involve, but that doesn't mean they'll be invading tomorrow, now does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malatesta Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='Samalander' post='1655881' date='Jan 21 2009, 06.54']Again, equating a Democracy with a zealous Theocracy is just plain wrong.[/quote] Because Hamas were democratically elected and Israel is a 'Jewish state'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inigima Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Lev, you're being a pretty big jerk to people who don't deserve it, and it makes debating with you pretty unappealing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malatesta Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='Inigima' post='1656144' date='Jan 21 2009, 10.58']Lev, you're being a pretty big jerk to people who don't deserve it, and it makes debating with you pretty unappealing.[/quote] Looks like hes calling a spade a spade to me. You can't debate with deluded idiots who don't move from positions like 1. Israel is always right 2. It's not that Israel strangle hold the Palestinian people for decades and sit on their land time and time again its that All Arabs want to destroy Israel, simple. 3. Israel doesn't have to follow international law (because it doesn't break all those international laws to begin with!) 4. Chomsky is a propagandist because he doesn't take our side (and subsequently he is very skilled at logical thinking which is our enemy too) 5. Whatever other complete nonsense we like to say including calling Israel a democratic paradise 6. etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Progressive Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Ini, I don't think you have ever attempted to honestly debate the issue at all. We went over this already .......... from the beginning of the conflict, you keep asking for resolutions and keep pressing the question until you get the answers you wanted that was more in favor of Israel (despite the fact that several posters have already given some neutral answers to this effect, which apparently wasn't adequate otherwise you would have engaged them). And if my posts were out of line, they would have been deleted by the mods; I do admit to being antagonistic toward a few posters whose standpoint and arguments I found revolting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Samalander deserves it and Lynerana deserves it tenfold, but I agree that the rest don't and [i]arguing[/i] with Lev is never easy. Still, it would be nice if some semi-reasonable discussion could be had. As for Israel-Palestine. The situation will eventually have to be resolved and it would be in the interests of the Israelis to have it happen sooner rather than later. The Arab nations surrounding her will not remain so much weaker than Israel forever and I think it's time people started to realize that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Progressive Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Well snake, if I haven't respond to your posts, it's to your credit that they're often quite reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young Wolf Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='Inigima' post='1656144' date='Jan 20 2009, 21.58']Lev, you're being a pretty big jerk to people who don't deserve it, and it makes debating with you pretty unappealing.[/quote] He's under a lot of pressue at home. Maddox has been beating him up regularly for the past month or two. YW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G'Kar Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 C'mon Pax, at least explain how your definition of radical zionist makes any sense. Meili makes some good points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malatesta Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='G'Kar' post='1656217' date='Jan 21 2009, 11.32']C'mon Pax, at least explain how your definition of radical zionist makes any sense. Meili makes some good points.[/quote] Actually Meili makes this point which sums it up nicely... [quote name='Meili' post='1656049' date='Jan 21 2009, 09.37']Zionism is nothing but support for mordern day Israel[/quote] I'm pretty sure if Zionism is (uncritical) support of modern day Israel then it is support for a rogue state that continuously breaks international law. I would assume Pax was just tacking on 'radical' to drive home a point but that is for him to speak on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Progressive Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='G'Kar' post='1656217' date='Jan 20 2009, 19.32']C'mon Pax, at least explain how your definition of radical zionist makes any sense. Meili makes some good points.[/quote] Since you asked so nicely, gkar: [quote]Zionism is defined as an international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel.[/quote] Aka, a manifestation of colonialism. [quote]like a radically biased anti to the state of Israel even existing.[/quote] The key word is "inherent" ............ so despite what the Jewish holy books have to say and the fanatics who believe it, Jews have no more inherent right to the land they're currently possessing. [quote]well first it's not radical zionist to say an entire group of hundreds of thousands are 'born' with hatred and murder on their mind, has anyone here said that? Also it isn't 'radical' Zionism to say they think the actions taken by Israel is fair. Zionism is nothing but support for mordern day Israel, at all since no expansion or permanent action was declared, you have taken freely and are going to rather biased, as in making shit up, from the Hamas weekly standard.[/quote] Incoherent as this was, I'll address it by reminding Melli to go and reread posts made by salamanders and lynerara. And yes, Israel's conduct throughout this entire siege was "radical", and that's mildly putting it. [quote](How many threads have been in for Darfur or Bosnia?)[/quote] What the fuck does that has to do with this? Want to rant about those issues, start the threads and maybe i'll grace it with my presence. [quote]It is wondered why the Arab countries can't send a relif boat without the need to slip a rocket or 99 but by definition, zionism doesn't have anything in it about locking people up because their race. And since you hold you responsibility in ANYONE at all helping them BUT Israel, it makes you seem radical in using them as martyrs so the anti-Israeli tide catches a bigger swell.[/quote] Again, quite incoherent ramblings. Regardless, the point is that other poor and politically unstable Arab countries have even less an obligation than Israel in solving the Palestinian problem. To suggest that Jordan should absorb all the Palestinians refugees so that Israel could wash its hands of the problem it created from its formation is "radical", and that's mildly putting it. [quote]Going out on a limb here. That has nothing to do with your phrasing at all. (Just checking, are the Swiss still paying Israel for money made from WW2?) You feel so bad hop on a relief boat, just try no to sit on the rockets at the bottom of a grain bag and don't go with a deep tan. You know them bloodthirsty Zionists, just looking to destroy Iranian boats for shit's and giggles and maybe a good kill to up the genocide toll a little bit![/quote] Does this guy ever make any sense? I have no idea what he's rambling on about here, but to clarify, yes it was wrong for Swiss banks to keep money looted from Jews during WW2 and their descendants should be compensated justly. I'm glad that we got this retarded point out of the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G'Kar Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 There are many flaws in his definition of "radical zionism" but off the top zionist =/= Jew. Also, defending Israeli military action =/= zionist (necessarily) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Progressive Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='G'Kar' post='1656246' date='Jan 20 2009, 19.53']There are many flaws in his definition of "radical zionism" but off the top zionist =/= Jew.[/quote] Obviously, since many Jews aren't zionists; some have even posted and denounced Israel's actions on these threads. [quote]Also, defending Israeli military action =/= zionist (necessarily)[/quote] Blind support sure is. Anyhow, given that you're a noob and isn't familiar with my history here, others could attest that my criticism of American's policies are quite as harsh. So no, Israel isn't that special. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='Pax Thien Jolie-Pitt' post='1655979' date='Jan 20 2009, 20.23']Also, if we're to play the role of board critic, it's helpful to be credible. Comments such as "Chomsky is a propagandist hypocrite and he shouldn't bother opening his mouth when it comes to the Israel-Palestinian conflict" sure aren't very substantive. ;) And I'm glad to read that somebody has abandoned the side of salamander ............ it has taken many posts from several boarders to reveal the inherent lies and racist assumptions sprouted by radical zionists.[/quote] Chomsky is a prpopagandist hypocrite, its an undisputed fact and I'm not the only one who thinks so. And I said 'both' I find you equally repellant in your blatant anti-semitism and clear hatred to all things related to Israel. You gloss over Palestinian atrocities, play them off as inconsequential, while accentuate the negatives of all Israels actions in defense of its citizens to the point of straw man arguments. All you've done is open my eyes to the inherent lies, racist assumptions and blatant falsehooods of Palestinian radicals. You deserve an opponent like Samalander, because all he is, is a reflection in a hate filled mirror. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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