Ser Scot A Ellison Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 YW, That was awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Mult, [quote name='Multaniette' post='1656756' date='Jan 21 2009, 10.26']SSE, should the villagers killed by the american army's 'mistaken' attacks in Pakistan also be provided with a few dozen rockets they can drop at their leisure on the american troops in the area?[/quote] Provided? No, but they certianly have a right to shoot back if they are shot at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EHK for Darwin Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='Young Wolf' post='1656755' date='Jan 21 2009, 09.25']A perfect description of this thread: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Klxx4afRJ_8"]This is SFW[/url][/quote] Heh...find me the clip of retarded, limbless 5 year olds trying to gnaw eachother to death and I think you'd hit the mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [mod] Can we please drop all the meta commentary about the merits of the thread itself or individual contributions to it? Normally, I don't mind, but in this case I think it's contributing to a pretty bad atmosphere. I shut the previous Gaza discussion, and I'm perfectly prepared to shut this one too... [/mod] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Multaniette Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1656760' date='Jan 21 2009, 21.28']Mult, Provided? No, but they certianly have a right to shoot back if they are shot at.[/quote] i thought this wasn't meant to be an exercise is testing the veracity and consistency of one's hypothetical arguements? the extent of the suffering is tremendous; instead of justifications and silly-pseudo intellectual examinations, don'tcha reckon it'd be better to focus on ways of [i]minimising[/i] and [i]eliminating[/i] the suffering rather than bickering about 'he did!', 'no, she did!'? and all of you guys lambasting this thread are no better than the supposed idiots engaged in dialogue. some of the posts in these threads have been extremely well researched and thought. aoife's most recent response being a prime example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Mult, [quote name='Multaniette' post='1656770' date='Jan 21 2009, 10.37']i thought this wasn't meant to be an exercise is testing the veracity and consistency of one's hypothetical arguements? the extent of the suffering is tremendous; instead of justifications and silly-pseudo intellectual examinations, don'tcha reckon it'd be better to focus on ways of [i]minimising[/i] and [i]eliminating[/i] the suffering rather than bickering about 'he did!', 'no, she did!'?[/quote] Okay. My point is simply that I think both Israel and the Palestinians have a right to self defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young Wolf Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='Multaniette' post='1656770' date='Jan 21 2009, 10.37']and all of you guys lambasting this thread are no better than the supposed idiots engaged in dialogue. [b]some of the posts in these threads have been extremely well researched and thought.[/b] aoife's most recent response being a prime example.[/quote] Her's are the exception. (and Ser Repititious had a few generally non-inflammatory well thought out posts). The majority of the thread is Lev baiting people, a large number responding, and then the zionists vs anti-semites labels being tossed back and forth. There's no fucking discussion going on, its a majority of mindless commentary, but I digress. We've been told not to make fun of the debacle taking place here so I remove myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malatesta Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1656752' date='Jan 21 2009, 23.22']Malatesta, Will Hamas stop firing rockets at Israel now? Should they? If they don't should Israel be able to fire back?[/quote] Look I would like to make it clear I am not championing Hamas. I simply haven't bothered to talk about them because it's clear, to everyone but an Israeli citizen it would seem, that Israel are cable of much greater modalities of violence, thus the discussion has centered around that. Hamas and Islamic Jihad are Islamist gangsters - Fatah and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs brigades are nationalist gangsters - A free Palestine under any of these regimes wouldn't be free (although comparatively to the present it would). Will Hamas stop firing rockets at Israel? Well they stopped during the ceasefire so there is no reason to think they aren't willing to reach agreements... except now we have 400 dead children. Should they? Yes I already said, shooting rockets at civilians is a crime and inexcusable. Should Isael be able to fire back? This highlights the bizarre Americanesqe discussion we have going here where defense and aggression are switched. The rockets are fired in reaction to Israel's continuous international crimes. This doesn't validate the firing of the rockets, nor the validity of fundamentalist Islamic groups, but rather highlights that the rockets are a reaction. Israel annexing Palestinian land to the point where they fight back and then crushing them with much greater force isn't Israel defending itself its just tying up and starving a dog until it bites you and then bashing its head in with a piece of wood. The firing of rockets, again an inexcusable crime, is not the starting point of the conflict and nor should it be the starting point of the discussion like it is presented in most of the West. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walpurgisborn Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='Vendetto' post='1656741' date='Jan 21 2009, 10.08']Amazing you know how to make a rocket. Which organization are you with?[/quote] Bio major, with a chem minor? I also watched a lot of MacGuyver as a kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edda van Heefmstra Ruston Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Thanks Mult, and Dub. Also, Dub, that video was hilarious. :rofl: All too true, but hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Multaniette Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1656781' date='Jan 21 2009, 20.51']Mult, Okay. My point is simply that I think both Israel and the Palestinians have a right to self defense.[/quote] ser scott, and my point is, and you'll have to excuse me for belabouring it again, an emphasis on the right to self-defense (and i am not going to bother arguing about its inherent limitations) isn't something that's going to smoothen things over. by its very nature, harping about having a right to protect oneself is going to antagonise others, and this is exactly what happens in a lot of dialogue. at this stage, there isn't any point is looking up justifications. however, as long as words like 'right', 'honour' and 'justifications' are bandied about, there's fat chance of anyone actually moving beyond the initial stumbling block and divorcing themselves from their initial reactions. or we might as well give that hope up and start proclaiming our rights out loud in the streets. IDF has a right to kill Hamas personnel. Hamas, likewise, has a similar right. and so on and so forth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Mult, [quote name='Multaniette' post='1656793' date='Jan 21 2009, 11.02']ser scott, and my point is, and you'll have to excuse me for belabouring it again, an emphasis on the right to self-defense (and i am not going to bother arguing about its inherent limitations) isn't something that's going to smoothen things over. by its very nature, harping about having a right to protect oneself is going to antagonise others, and this is exactly what happens in a lot of dialogue. at this stage, there isn't any point is looking up justifications. however, as long as words like 'right', 'honour' and 'justifications' are bandied about, there's fat chance of anyone actually moving beyond the initial stumbling block and divorcing themselves from their initial reactions. or we might as well give that hope up and start proclaiming our rights out loud in the streets. IDF has a right to kill Hamas personnel. Hamas, likewise, has a similar right. and so on and so forth.[/quote] You make a good point. However, it's hard for someone worried about a Hamas rocket hitting their house, or worried about an Israeli rocket hitting theirs, to let go of the self-defense principal. Hence the difficulty getting this situation resolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malatesta Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1656833' date='Jan 22 2009, 00.31']Mult, You make a good point. However, it's hard for someone worried about a Hamas rocket hitting their house, or worried about an Israeli rocket hitting theirs, to let go of the self-defense principal. Hence the difficulty getting this situation resolved.[/quote] Hence the difficulty getting this current situation resolved or the overall problem? Does 'let go' of the 'self-defense principal' mean let go of occupied territory, water, etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Malatesta, [quote name='Malatesta' post='1656845' date='Jan 21 2009, 11.39']Hence the difficulty getting this current situation resolved or the overall problem? Does 'let go' of the 'self-defense principal' mean let go of occupied territory, water, etc?[/quote] To stop shooting or shooting back and try work on real negotiations and make an effort at real compromise to achive some sort of lasting resolution of all those issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malatesta Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1656848' date='Jan 22 2009, 00.42']Malatesta, To stop shooting or shooting back and try work on real negotiations and make an effort at real compromise to achive some sort of lasting resolution of all those issues.[/quote] Here is where we encounter several decades of trying with most of the world agreeing on two-state settlements and Israel and the US saying access denied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Progressive Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Just want to give props to Marie-Angélieef/Aoife for her great posts tracing the origin of the escalation. And as I was reading this article, a Mr. Regev also made an appearance, apparently he's the spokesman for Olmert: [url="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123246230782997907.html?mod=article-outset-box"]http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1232462307...icle-outset-box[/url] It seems that the UN chief is furious with Israel and is pushing for the opening of the Gaza borders for supplies and construction materials to come through ............ this is obviously something Israel cannot stand for, so the new Obama administration's stance on this would be crucial. ETA: from the WSJ article, Mr. Regev said that aid money should be channeled through the Palestinian Authority, but according to this article by Reuter, [url="http://www.reuters.com/article/newsMaps/idUSTRE50K3KM20090121"]Israel is blocking Abbas from bringing money to Gaza.[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edda van Heefmstra Ruston Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='Pax Thien Jolie-Pitt' post='1657062' date='Jan 21 2009, 20.52']Just want to give props to Marie-Angélieef/Aoife for her great posts tracing the origin of the escalation. And as I was reading this article, a Mr. Regev also made an appearance, apparently he's the spokesman for Olmert: [url="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123246230782997907.html?mod=article-outset-box"]http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1232462307...icle-outset-box[/url] It seems that the UN chief is furious with Israel and is pushing for the opening of the Gaza borders for supplies and construction materials to come through ............ this is obviously something Israel cannot stand for, so the new Obama administration's stance on this would be crucial.[/quote] Thanks, Lev. I certainly appreciate your fervor, and your defence of the Palestinian people. I just wish more of your arguments weren't "so when did you stop beating your wife"-type ones, so that a higher number of rational people could actually try to respond to them. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samalander Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='snake' post='1656628' date='Jan 21 2009, 15.02']What? :dunno:[/quote] You said, and I quote : "Samalander deserves it and Lynerana deserves it tenfold, but I agree that the rest don't" [quote name='Malatesta' post='1656783' date='Jan 21 2009, 17.52']Israel annexing Palestinian land to the point where they fight back and then crushing them with much greater force isn't Israel defending itself its just tying up and starving a dog until it bites you and then bashing its head in with a piece of wood.[/quote] We withdrew from Gaza!! We pulled out all the troops!!! We uprooted all the settlers in Gaza, and leveled their homes!!! And what did we get in return : Rockets!!! Where is this mythical palestinian land we are annexing I ask? [quote name='Malatesta' post='1656855' date='Jan 21 2009, 18.47']Here is where we encounter several decades of trying with most of the world agreeing on two-state settlements and Israel and the US saying access denied.[/quote] a. Some people don't like to hear stuff like this but several decades ago, our accepting such an offer might have meant our doom. Just one scenario for you consideration : Saddam Hussein, who liked to think of himself as the modern Salaah Al-Din, rolls his army unopposed through Jordan and is welcomed by the Palestinian state. All that army had to do then was cross 20-30 kilometers more, and he would have cut Israel in half. And if we hadn't bombed his nuclear facility in 81' he might have had nukes to deter us and far greater numbers in his military. So, not everything in this world is black and white, boys and girls. You should be old enough to know. b. Any leader who brought the two state solution to the Palestinian people then (and maybe now) would have been ripped apart. They are fed since childhood on dreams of toppling the "Zionist Entity" and returning to the homes of their grandfathers. Any leader who signed a compromise with us, would have been branded traitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vendetto Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='Samalander' post='1657372' date='Jan 21 2009, 15.31']a. Some people don't like to hear stuff like this but several decades ago, our accepting such an offer might have meant our doom. Just one scenario for you consideration : Saddam Hussein, who liked to think of himself as the modern Salaah Al-Din, rolls his army unopposed through Jordan and is welcomed by the Palestinian state. All that army had to do then was cross 20-30 kilometers more, and he would have cut Israel in half. And if we hadn't bombed his nuclear facility in 81' he might have had nukes to deter us and far greater numbers in his military. So, not everything in this world is black and white, boys and girls. You should be old enough to know. b. Any leader who brought the two state solution to the Palestinian people then (and maybe now) would have been ripped apart. They are fed since childhood on dreams of toppling the "Zionist Entity" and returning to the homes of their grandfathers. Any leader who signed a compromise with us, would have been branded traitor.[/quote] That's a side of the story that hasn't been said yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inigima Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='The Iceman of the North' post='1656686' date='Jan 21 2009, 09.13']As opposed to caving in to the demands of a group that regularly shoot at your civilians while preventing vital supplies of reaching the civilian population?[/quote] My sense of things is that the Israelis do [i]not[/i] regularly shoot at Palestinian civilians. Do you know something I don't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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