Israel to pull out of Gaza

[Samalander]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1659187' date='Jan 23 2009, 10.54']Yes, the Palestinians are just as free as any prisoner.
"Stop whining, your free to walk all the way from the bed to the toilet!"[/quote]
So, the people of Singapore are prisoners as well? They also have a tiny country.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Samalander' post='1659189' date='Jan 23 2009, 03.59']So, the people of Singapore are prisoners as well? They also have a tiny country.[/quote]

Yes, but I'm fairly certain they also control their own borders.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Samalander' post='1659188' date='Jan 23 2009, 03.58']In Gaza, we acceded to all international demands regarding land. They got everything the world deems they deserve back. And yet they persist in armed conflict. And they add a sprinkle of religious zealous lunacy to the mix. If Gaza were ruled by a secular, rational power, the situation would have been vastly different. We will only be pushed so far. the world kept saying : "See this international line you stepped over, they have every right to fight you, what are complaining about?"
Well, we stepped back. What did we get in return?[/quote]

You mean you stopped illegally occupying their land. What, you expect them to give you a medal for that?

PS - Hamas' election has nothing to do with the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza.

[The Iceman of the North]

[quote name='Samalander' post='1659188' date='Jan 23 2009, 09.58']In Gaza, we acceded to all international demands regarding land. They got everything the world deems they deserve back. And yet they persist in armed conflict. And they add a sprinkle of religious zealous lunacy to the mix. If Gaza were ruled by a secular, rational power, the situation would have been vastly different. We will only be pushed so far. the world kept saying : "See this international line you stepped over, they have every right to fight you, what are complaining about?"
Well, we stepped back. What did we get in return?[/quote]
You didn't just step back and leave the Gazan's be, did you? With the collusion of the Egyptian regime, you've prevented people from moving freely in and out of the territory. You've prevented necessary goods from entering the territory. You've been shooting at fishing boats, denying them the opportunity to feed themselves. You've shot at people, even children, getting too close to the border.

[quote name='Samalander' post='1659189' date='Jan 23 2009, 09.59']So, the people of Singapore are prisoners as well? They also have a tiny country.[/quote]
The people of Singapore are free to leave the country whenever they choose, and return whenever they choose.

[Samalander]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1659192' date='Jan 23 2009, 11.02']Yes, but I'm fairly certain they also control their own borders.[/quote]
Again, "border" by it's very definition is a partition between 2 tates. Any one of which can choose to close it.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Samalander' post='1659198' date='Jan 23 2009, 04.11']Again, "border" by it's very definition is a partition between 2 tates. Any one of which can choose to close it.[/quote]

You control their airspace and coastlines. Neither of which count as a "border" by that definition.

Seriously man, didn't you leave? Your terrible at this shit.

[Samalander]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1659195' date='Jan 23 2009, 11.06']1) You mean you stopped illegally occupying their land. What, you expect them to give you a medal for that?
2) PS - Hamas' election has nothing to do with the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza.[/quote]
1) No, just stop fighting us. That was their big Casos Beli wasn't it? Israel is occupying our land? Well, we're not occupying it in Gaza any more. Yet, they keep fighting. Maybe what they really want goes much further than the PR bullshit they fed the world?
2) That point is debatable, and I wasn't actually talking about that.

[Samalander]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1659201' date='Jan 23 2009, 11.13']You control their airspace and coastlines. Neither of which count as a "border" by that definition.[/quote]
The airspace is a moot point since they don't have an airport.
The sea blockade they got for smuggling rockets and shooting them at us.

[Samalander]

[quote name='The Iceman of the North' post='1659196' date='Jan 23 2009, 11.08']1) You didn't just step back and leave the Gazan's be, did you? With the collusion of the Egyptian regime, you've prevented people from moving freely in and out of the territory. You've prevented necessary goods from entering the territory.
2) You've been shooting at fishing boats, denying them the opportunity to feed themselves.
3) You've shot at people, even children, getting too close to the border.[/quote]
1) Again, only because they wouldn't cease hostilities even after the withdrawl.
2) A blockade means nobody gets past. That is the definition of blockade.
3) This is a closed border. They have no legitimate business being there.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Samalander' post='1659203' date='Jan 23 2009, 04.14']No, just stop fighting us. That was their big Casos Beli wasn't it? Israel is occupying our land? Well, we're not occupying it in Gaza any more. Yet, they keep fighting. Maybe what they really want goes much further than the PR bullshit they fed the world?[/quote]

You still occupy their land in the West Bank.

You also still blockade them in.

And, oh hey, their memory is better then a Goldfishes so they just don't fucking like you.

[quote]The airspace is a moot point since they don't have an airport.
[b]The sea blockade they got for smuggling rockets and shooting them at us.[/b][/quote]

Yes, you control their borders. Thanks for admitting it.

[Eurytus]

[quote name='Samalander' post='1659184' date='Jan 23 2009, 08.52']1) What is this freedom of movement you are talking about? They are free to go anywhere they like inside the Gaza strip. Are you talking about freedom to enter Israel? They are an enemy entity. Of course we are not going to let them in. Freedom to enter Egypt? But they don't really want them in Egypt either. As for water access or life opportunities, what are you blaming us for? The gulf countries are more than willing to shell out ridiculous amounts of money to make life in Gaza better, but Hamas has a vested interest in keeping the population poor and opressed. If a people don't like their current condition they should work to make it better (like Ireland) not blame others. It's not like we steal their money and that's why they are poor.[/quote]

So let me get this straight. They are not allowed to have their own country but you're ok with denying them access to their current country.
Is that the case?

As for water access, Israel has purposely denied Palestinians access to water supplies. And when they invaded Gaza they made a point of destroying water towers.

[quote name='Samalander' post='1659184' date='Jan 23 2009, 08.52']2) You just like repeating words you heard others use, don't you? The Gaza strip is a narrow strech of land. That does not make it a "ghetto". That is their territory. Maybe you want us to give them chuncks of Israel proper so they would have more room to strech their legs? What is this "denying them a life" crap? They can work, produce, build, do whatever they want. Also, read my previous post. This is not just about loss of life (though there is nothing wrong with people knowing there is a price tag attached to killing jews). Nobody killed those children "in revenge". They are just an unfortunate consequence.[/quote]

Its a ghetto.

And you wouldn't be saying unfortunate consequence if they were your children.

[Eurytus]

[quote name='Samalander' post='1659208' date='Jan 23 2009, 09.20']3) This is a closed border. They have no legitimate business being there.[/quote]

Until they CROSS the border they are in THEIR territory.

[mormont]

[quote name='Samalander' post='1659155' date='Jan 23 2009, 08.16']I'm saying they did not mean the accords to apply to such forces.[/quote]

Actually, what you're saying (technically) is that they did not mean for these accords to apply to [i]regular[/i] forces where they are in conflict with guerilla forces. Obviously the accords don't apply to guerilla forces, since they're generally not signatories. You're suggesting that where an army fights guerilla forces, their behaviour towards civilians is not regulated by the accords.

I find this an odd suggestion, and you have provided no evidence for it. Surely, given that the signatories were (as I've said) not only aware of guerilla warfare but had intimate experience of it, they would have included an explicit exemption if this were so?

As for the issue of control of Gaza, surely this exercise is (amongst other things) designed to emphasise to the Palestinians that Israel can, if it chooses, exert complete control over what happens to Gaza, with practical impunity? It's hard to reconcile that with the idea that Gaza was in control of its own destiny. I suspect that most Gazans were aware of the reality of the situation - that their 'freedom' was on Israeli sufferance, which makes it no real freedom at all.

[Eurytus]

Also when Israel signed the Geneva Convention themselves surely they must have recalled that just a few years previously Jews themselves committed terrorist attrocities in Palestine.

[Samalander]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1659209' date='Jan 23 2009, 11.21']1) You still occupy their land in the West Bank.
2) You also still blockade them in.
3) And, oh hey, their memory is better then a Goldfishes so they just don't fucking like you.[/quote]
[quote name='Eurytus' post='1659219' date='Jan 23 2009, 11.44']4) So let me get this straight. They are not allowed to have their own country but you're ok with denying them access to their current country.
Is that the case?
5) And when they invaded Gaza they made a point of destroying water towers.
6) And you wouldn't be saying unfortunate consequence if they were your children.[/quote]
[quote name='Eurytus' post='1659223' date='Jan 23 2009, 11.46']7) Until they CROSS the border they are in THEIR territory.[/quote]
[quote name='mormont' post='1659224' date='Jan 23 2009, 11.47']8) As for the issue of control of Gaza, surely this exercise is (amongst other things) designed to emphasise to the Palestinians that Israel can, if it chooses, exert complete control over what happens to Gaza, with practical impunity? It's hard to reconcile that with the idea that Gaza was in control of its own destiny. I suspect that most Gazans were aware of the reality of the situation - that their 'freedom' was on Israeli sufferance, which makes it no real freedom at all.[/quote]
1) So, let the people in the West Bank fight. But they don't. They prefer negotiation.
2) You are confusing cause and result. They are not fighting us because we are blockading them. We are blockading them because they fight us (by launching missiles they smuggle in, also through the sea).
3) Wow. That's a really good cause for war. They just don't fucking like you. Well, you know what, I'm not that crazy about them either.
4) Israel is not their current country. They don't want to be part of Israel, and we don't want them either.
5) WTF?!? This is one link I have to see...
6) Of course not. So?
7) All hostile borders keep a certain "security margin". This is to avoid things like terrorist infiltrations, intelligence gathering, tunnel digging etc.
8) We bombed the shit out of the Syrian nuclear reactor. Does that mean the Syrian people don't have any freedom because we can bomb their nuclear sites whenever we want? You are confusing military actions with military rule. We do not rule them. Anything constructive they want to do, we couldn't care less. We do not want to rule them. Sure, we reminded them we are a military superpower and we can take the heat, so to speak. But that has nothing to do with their personal freedom or whatever.

[Eurytus]

[quote name='Samalander' post='1659306' date='Jan 23 2009, 12.32']4) Israel is not their current country. They don't want to be part of Israel, and we don't want them either.
5) WTF?!? This is one link I have to see...
6) Of course not. So?[/quote]

4) Do they have their own country? No. Then they are part of Israel. End of discussion
5) Then try watching the news. Now that Israel actually don't prevent foreign journalists from seeing their warcrimes.
6) Which shows your double standard

[The Iceman of the North]

[quote name='Samalander' post='1659306' date='Jan 23 2009, 13.32']2) You are confusing cause and result. They are not fighting us because we are blockading them. We are blockading them because they fight us (by launching missiles they smuggle in, also through the sea).[/quote]
This is simply wrong. Israel initiated a boycott of the Gaza strip, suspending all economic ties, reducing humanitarian aid, withholding all tax revenue, asking the international donor community to cease all funding to the Palestinian Authority and withheld all tax revenue as soon as Hamas gained control of Gaza.

[Ran]

Folks, this is not a good way to discuss things:

[quote]5) Then try watching the news. Now that Israel actually don't prevent foreign journalists from seeing their warcrimes.[/quote]

If you make a claim of some factual event having taken place, and someone asks for a source, [i]provide it[/i]. Don't complain about the fact that people don't necessarily read the sources you do and would like more information. If you're unwilling to back up a claim, withdraw your claim and move on. It's getting very tiresome to see people making claims and then not being able or willing to support those claims. Without them, it's all just endless hot air.

I spent ten minutes before I finally found [url="http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct=us/15-0&fp=49791eb0070dbe74&ei=icp5ScG7IIycwQHAifCIAg&url=http%3A//www.tehrantimes.com/index_View.asp%3Fcode%3D186753&cid=1293279493&sig2=7Kji2ZJM_3V5JbuzLbffoA&usg=AFQjCNGn37IY88r4WXkcpOHNcx3K_snLWg"]this[/url], which the Palestine Chronicle and the Journal of the Turkish Weekly are reprinting. And reading even further, it's basically a editorial piece -- it's not actually claiming anything about the present events in Gaza, but rather telling people that that's the sort of thing the Israelis are doing without any actual evidence.

There's a reference in Google News searches to a water tower in _Lebanon_ having been hit by an Israeli attack ... in 1996.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Haaretz has reported on Israel-caused damage to Gaza's water supply at the start of this last conflict (6 January 2009): [url="http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052984.html"]http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052984.html[/url]

Some is due to actual structural damage. Most is to do with the lack of / limitation on electricity. Nowhere in the article is a water tower mentioned, nor is it implied that the attacks on the water supply are deliberate.

[Ran]

Thank you, Eefa. The water supply thing I had heard of, and sounds much more complicated than Israel shooting up water towers deliberately or just to pass the time.