Israel to pull out of Gaza

[Rane]

[quote name='Samalander' post='1659205' date='Jan 23 2009, 07.16'][b]The airspace is a moot point since they don't have an airport.[/b]
The sea blockade they got for smuggling rockets and shooting them at us.[/quote]
Well, they have one... is just no longer operational because you guys bombed the shit out of it.
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Arafat_International_Airport"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Arafat...ational_Airport[/url]

[The Progressive]

I'm thinking that the result of all this might be a 3 states solution with the West Bank and Gaza split into two opposing entities.

ETA: Props to shryke for finding that link; that US Marine makes a powerful argument about proper military conducts.

[Samalander]

[quote name='Eurytus' post='1659324' date='Jan 23 2009, 14.59']1) Do they have their own country? No. Then they are part of Israel. End of discussion
2) Which shows your double standard[/quote]
[quote name='The Iceman of the North' post='1659342' date='Jan 23 2009, 15.30']3) This is simply wrong. Israel initiated a boycott of the Gaza strip, suspending all economic ties, reducing humanitarian aid, withholding all tax revenue, asking the international donor community to cease all funding to the Palestinian Authority and withheld all tax revenue as soon as Hamas gained control of Gaza.[/quote]
[quote name='Pax Thien Jolie-Pitt' post='1659753' date='Jan 23 2009, 20.18']4) I'm thinking that the result of all this might be a 3 states solution with the West Bank and Gaza split into two opposing entities.
5) ETA: Props to shryke for finding that link; that US Marine makes a powerful argument about proper military conducts.[/quote]
1) You are the only one who thinks this way. We don't think this way. The Palestinians don't think this way. The rest of the board doesn't think this way.
2) No. It just means I don't confuse personal tragety with "international war crimes". Like I said before, the death in itself is not enough to constitute a war crime.
3) Hamas gaining control of gaza is hostile action in itself. These guys believe killing jews is a tenent of their religion, they want their national resistance to go on way beyond the disputed territories until there is no more Israel and they serve as Cat's Paw to Iran. Hamas is considered a terrorist organization by practically the whole world.
BTW, they got their tax revenues back before the operation. It was a smokescreen, but they got it back.
4) And so the Palestinian people can become the only people in the world with three states : Hamastan in Gaza, the Pa in the West bank and Jordan.
5) That US marine was full of it. We are going to be taking lessons in morality from the US Marines? Come on. We all remember Vietnam. Those numbers make what we did in Gaza look like a statistical glitch.
And remember "Shock and Awe"? Who were they shocking and aweing do you think?

[Samalander]

[quote name='rANE' post='1659717' date='Jan 23 2009, 19.57']Well, they have one... is just no longer operational because you guys bombed the shit out of it.
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Arafat_International_Airport"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Arafat...ational_Airport[/url][/quote]
Yeah, I forgot about that one...at least they can't fly planes into our skyscrapers, eh?

[Ser Reptitious]

[quote name='Samalander' post='1659910' date='Jan 23 2009, 12.49']Yeah, I forgot about that one...at least they can't fly planes into our skyscrapers, eh?[/quote]

You know, I'm no fan of Hamas either, but I think your constant attempt to draw a parallel between them and al-Qaeda rings false. After all, the fact that Hamas chose to participate in elections at least shows a recognition of the democratic process. (Had they chosen the al-Qaeda/Taliban route instead, they simply would have threatened death to anyone who voted!)

I realize that there are many unsavioury aspects concerning Hamas vis-a-vis Israel, but I think if anything a more apt comparison would be the IRA.

The reason why I'm bringing this up is because if we compare Hamas to the IRA, then there may be a chance that one day they will renounce violence, whereas that is unlikely to ever be the case with al-Qaeda.

[Samalander]

[quote name='Ser Reptitious' post='1659986' date='Jan 23 2009, 22.33']You know, I'm no fan of Hamas either, but I think your constant attempt to draw a parallel between them and al-Qaeda rings false. After all, the fact that Hamas chose to participate in elections at least shows a recognition of the democratic process. (Had they chosen the al-Qaeda/Taliban route instead, they simply would have threatened death to anyone who voted!)
I realize that there are many unsavioury aspects concerning Hamas vis-a-vis Israel, but I think if anything a more apt comparison would be the IRA.
The reason why I'm bringing this up is because if we compare Hamas to the IRA, then there may be a chance that one day they will renounce violence, whereas that is unlikely to ever be the case with al-Qaeda.[/quote]
Hamas and Al-Queda are both Sunni Islamic terrorist organizations. You can compare Hamas to the IRA all day long, it won't make it so. The IRA put their nationalist objectives first and foremost. There were some religious aspects to their war, but it was not in fact a religious war. With Hamas, the opposite is true. They see the nationalist conflict as a way to further their religious Jihadist objectives. Plus, now that Hamas is in power in Gaza, you can kiss elections there goodbye. Like other totalitarian regimes through history they used the pretext of election to get to power, and than cancelled that whole system.

[Ser Reptitious]

[quote name='Samalander' post='1660031' date='Jan 23 2009, 14.05']Hamas and Al-Queda are both Sunni Islamic terrorist organizations. You can compare Hamas to the IRA all day long, it won't make it so. The IRA put their nationalist objectives first and foremost. There were some religious aspects to their war, but it was not in fact a religious war. With Hamas, the opposite is true. They see the nationalist conflict as a way to further their religious Jihadist objectives. Plus, now that Hamas is in power in Gaza, you can kiss elections there goodbye. Like other totalitarian regimes through history they used the pretext of election to get to power, and than cancelled that whole system.[/quote]

Sam,

Just because Hamas and al-Qaeda are both Sunni outfits doesn't mean that they are comparable.

As for whether Hamas has nationalist or religious jihadist objectives, there are probably some members that fall into column A and some that fall into column B. Israel and the rest of the world would do well to broker a deal with the former (which could be accomplished by negotiating an acceptable national solution to the ongoing conflict) while isolating the latter.

Any sort of 'freedom fighter'/'terrorist' (take your pick) organization (including Hamas) is bound to have some reasonable pragmatists and some radical fanatics. You might want to recall that after the IRA was placated, a splinter group called the "Real IRA" was determined to carry on with the IRA's formerly violent ways. However, since the UK managed to split the moderates away from them, they never really accomplished all that much.

I'm hopeful that now that Mitchell has been appointed as Special Envoy to the Middle East that he will be able to bring about a Northern Ireland-type solution to this never-ending conflict.

The bottomline is that Hamas will not simply go away. Despise them all you will (and you may well have perfectly acceptable reasons for doing so), they will have to be a part of the solution. So the best you can do is deal with the most pragmatic members among them, rather than tarring every last member with the same 'religious jihadist' brush, which will accomplish absolutely nothing!

[The Progressive]

Hamas is a social movement; if you still don't get it even now, then Israel will be hit with more rockets once the cease-fire ended.

[quote]We are going to be taking lessons in morality from the US Marines?[/quote]

Well if that isn't your cup of tea, then how about fellow Jews like [url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2003/jun/19/foreignpolicy.israel"]this one.[/url]

[Vendetto]

[quote name='Pax Thien Jolie-Pitt' post='1660102' date='Jan 23 2009, 14.39']Hamas is a social movement; if you still don't get it even now, then Israel will be hit with more rockets once the cease-fire ended.[/quote]


What are they moving towards if not more violence? That whole statement brands them not as a social movement, but as terrorists.

[The Progressive]

They have many goals, some attainable, some not so much. Regardless, no colonial power has ever gave up just because the natives asked nicely.

[Walpurgisborn]

[quote name='Vendetto' post='1660108' date='Jan 23 2009, 16.44']What are they moving towards if not more violence? That whole statement brands them not as a social movement, but as terrorists.[/quote]
Irgun moved towards progressively more violent acts, culminating with the King David Hotel Bombing. It's also, through Menachem Begin, the predecessor of Herut and Likud.

Were they justified in their acts of violence. That's a different argument. But, Menachem Begin who fought with Irgun, pushed a right-wing nationalist agenda with Herut, eventually made peace with Egypt, the first Arabic country to recognize Israel's right to exist.

[shadowbinding shoe]

[quote name='Pax Thien Jolie-Pitt' post='1660120' date='Jan 23 2009, 23.53']They have many goals, some attainable, some not so much. Regardless, no colonial power has ever gave up just because the natives asked nicely.[/quote]

Mahatma Gandhi??? Canada for that matter? And tagging Israel as colonial is false. It's laws and culture are influenced from European ideas, but the same can be said of Lebanon. Some of its population came from Europe, but an even bigger part came from the other Arab countries. It owes no loyalty to Britain.

[Samalander]

[quote name='Pax Thien Jolie-Pitt' post='1660120' date='Jan 23 2009, 23.53']1) They have many goals, some attainable, some not so much. Regardless, no colonial power has ever gave up just because the natives asked nicely.[/quote]
[quote name='scrahan' post='1660153' date='Jan 24 2009, 00.16']2) Irgun moved towards progressively more violent acts, culminating with the King David Hotel Bombing. It's also, through Menachem Begin, the predecessor of Herut and Likud.
Were they justified in their acts of violence. That's a different argument. But, Menachem Begin who fought with Irgun, pushed a right-wing nationalist agenda with Herut, eventually made peace with Egypt, the first Arabic country to recognize Israel's right to exist.[/quote]
1) We are not a colonial power. Israel is our home. Where are we supposed to "go back" to?
2) Perfect example of a nationalist movement NOT fueled by zealous religious goals.

[Ran]

I agree that Israel is not a colonial power. I think its relationship to Palestine has only very superficial similarities to that, and I don't really think it's helpful to discuss the dynamics in those terms when looking at it objectively. The issue of Israeli settlers in areas that were not Israeli territory prior to 1967 is problematic in this, but I don't really think that the situation really fits colonialism.

In terms of more subjective theory, there's something to be said for Palestinians seeing their situation through the filter of colonial experience, but that's just a way of trying to grasp what's going on through analogy.

[Samalander]

[quote name='Ran' post='1660684' date='Jan 24 2009, 11.17']In terms of more subjective theory, there's something to be said for Palestinians seeing their situation through the filter of colonial experience, but that's just a way of trying to grasp what's going on through analogy.[/quote]
Or a way for the Palestinians to discredit the very existance of Israel, in the eyes of a world weary of colonialism.

[Samalander]

[quote name='Pax Thien Jolie-Pitt' post='1660102' date='Jan 23 2009, 23.39']Hamas is a social movement; if you still don't get it even now, then Israel will be hit with more rockets once the cease-fire ended.[/quote]
Hamas is also a social movement. So what? The Taliban started out as an anti-bandit peacekeeping force.

[Ser Reptitious]

[quote name='Samalander' post='1660642' date='Jan 24 2009, 00.00']2) Perfect example of a nationalist movement NOT fueled by zealous religious goals.[/quote]

Does that somehow make their violence more acceptable?

[Eurytus]

[quote name='Samalander' post='1660642' date='Jan 24 2009, 07.00']1) We are not a colonial power. Israel is our home. Where are we supposed to "go back" to?[/quote]

Its THEIR home too. More so than yours in fact.

[Samalander]

[quote name='Eurytus' post='1660929' date='Jan 24 2009, 19.54']Its THEIR home too. More so than yours in fact.[/quote]
:bs:

[The_BlauerDragon]

[quote name='Vendetto' post='1660108' date='Jan 23 2009, 14.44']What are they moving towards if not more violence? That whole statement brands them not as a social movement, but as terrorists.[/quote]

I think that's a very good point. Demanding respect as a "Social movement" while simultaneously (in the same breath, no less) threatening to continue with terrorist attacks is hardly the way to have your claims of "honorable intentions" taken seriously. As much as I hate to say this, I think that as long as there is life in the middle east, there will never be peace in the middle east. It's a never ending cycle that will continually threaten to pull the rest of the world back into it again and again. As for Israel pulling out of Gaza, perhaps someone should try explaining to them that abstinence is the best policy (ie. If you don't invade in the first place, you won't have to worry about pulling back out).