Why does everybody hate Sansa?

[ARYa_Nym]

As for not taking Arya's side: That may be true, but Sansa didn't take Joffrey's side either. She didn't take anyone's side. Ned explains to Arya why Sansa felt compelled to behave the way she did when called before the king and queen, and that explanation is good enough for me. In fact, it seems to be good enough even for Arya, as she reluctantly accepts it.

Also, Arya didn't defend Sansa; she defended Lady. And for numerous reasons Arya was... just really not a saint in how she handled that situation. In fact, much of what she did, in all her unthinking hot-headedness, did nothing but make the situation worse.

Of course, it was Lady's life on the line. She didn't take sides but she still liked Joffrey even though he tried to kill Arya. Arya is not without blame but if Sansa had been able to see Cersei and Joffrey for who they showed themselves to be to her in this incident then maybe she wouldn't have later trusted them. It's similar to Cat and Ned trusting LF despite him not hiding at all that he didn't like the Starks.

[Wolf Maid]

To be fair to Sansa, she was terrified for Arya and tried to get her to stay out of it so she'd be safe: "Arya, you stay out of this!" In the show, that line (much to my annoyance) comes off as if Sansa just doesn't want Arya to spoil her Prince Charming's fun as he beats up on the defenseless Mycah. But in the book, it's perfectly clear that Sansa's reason for wanting Arya to stay out of it is because she was desperately afraid of Arya being hurt. She was concerned about her, and she did make an effort to keep Arya safe, even if it was ineffectual.

As for not jumping in, well, Sansa has never been physically brave. As she's grown older, I think she's become much more emotionally brave, but she's not and probably never will be physically brave. She's never going to be the type to jump in and whoop ass, because that's just not who she is. And frankly, it would have been kind of stupid anyway, because 1) she'd probably end up getting herself hurt as well as Arya, and 2) she'd be attacking the fucking Crown Prince, which is never a smart move.

As for not taking Arya's side: That may be true, but Sansa didn't take Joffrey's side either. She didn't take anyone's side. Ned explains to Arya why Sansa felt compelled to behave the way she did when called before the king and queen, and that explanation is good enough for me. In fact, it seems to be good enough even for Arya, as she reluctantly accepts it.

Also, Arya didn't defend Sansa; she defended Lady. And for numerous reasons Arya was... just really not a saint in how she handled that situation. In fact, much of what she did, in all her unthinking hot-headedness, did nothing but make the situation worse.

As for the age factor not being a good enough reason for you, fair enough. But one could say the same thing for a lot of the things Arya has done. I personally don't think Arya's age is a good excuse for choosing to become a conscienceless murderer either, and that, imo, is a far more egregious thing than anything Sansa's ever done.

(None of the above is meant to say that I didn't feel enormous sympathy for Arya in that situation, or that I wasn't annoyed with a lot of Sansa's behavior. I just don't think it was nearly as one-sided and as much of an "Arya was an angel and Sansa was the devil" type situation as you do.)

In the books, it came across to me that she didn't want her day to be ruined as well. She wasn't yelling "stop it, you're going to kill her" to Joffrey, she was yelling "stop it, you're spoiling it". This is while he was swinging the sword at her sister.

Also, she did take Joffrey's side. She blamed Arya for the entire situation and she was still in love with Joffrey and making excuses for him after watching him do that. She never yelled for him to leave Arya alone while he was swinging the sword at her, even though she saw that Arya was afraid. However, when Arya got the sword, she yelled at her to leave Joffrey alone. This type of reaction is unfathomable to me. I could never in a million years understand that. If someone tried to hurt my siblings, they would be dead to me. Any love I might have had for them would be gone. As I mentioned before, she didn't have to jump in the fight, just don't lie about it and don't side against your family.

A nine year old watching someone put a sword to the face of her friend and draw blood and wanting to do something to stop that is understandable to me. It is similar to the reaction I would have if it were one of my friends or siblings. I can't relate to any of Sansa's actions in this situation, and a lot of this was in her POV.

Also, I never said that Arya was an angel compared to Sansa, I just said her reaction was saintly compared to what mine would have been in that situation. I know I sure wouldn't have lifted a voice for her or even wanted to talk to her after that happened.

[Raksha the Demon]

Of course, it was Lady's life on the line. She didn't take sides but she still liked Joffrey even though he tried to kill Arya. Arya is not without blame but if Sansa had been able to see Cersei and Joffrey for who they showed themselves to be to her in this incident then maybe she wouldn't have later trusted them. It's similar to Cat and Ned trusting LF despite him not hiding at all that he didn't like the Starks.

I think that Sansa persuaded herself that it was all Arya's fault because she could not face the fact that Joffrey was the true villain in the tragedy. She tried to be gentle and tender with him after he was hurt, and he looked at her with loathing and contempt. Later, at the tourney, Sansa remembers that "she told herself that it had not been Joffrey's doing, not truly. The queen had done it; she was the one to hate, her and Arya. Nothing bad would have happened except for Arya." Now this would be standard stuff for a girl her age who quarreled with her sister about the older sister's male friend; except that her supposed boyfriend went after her sister with a lethal weapon.

Sansa does have to stop deluding herself in terms of siding with someone she loves blindly but superficially over someone who deserves her allegiance. I wonder if GRRM is setting up something like that with the situation of Alayne/Robert/LF in the Vale - will she fall in love with Harry-the-Heir and Littlefinger promise to get that annulment of her marriage to Tyrion if SweetRobin passes away without her protest, or some other similar veiled threat?

I also wonder if GRRM set up Sansa and Arya as such extremely different characters for a reason. In a sense, they each have what each other lacks; Arya has ferocity, initiative, and resourcefulness and great loyalty; Sansa has the skill to conceal her thoughts and get along with people in a hostile environments and even make a positive contribution, in terms of saving a life and inspiring others, during her captivity. Sometimes it seems like the two Stark daughters are halves of an awesome whole. But at the moment (as of AFFC/ADWD) they are both in danger of moral corruption. They need to meet and reconcile.

And, getting back to the Mycah Tragedy; I wonder why the heck Ned didn't sit Sansa down for a long talk afterwards. He knew that she lied; he could certainly gather, from Sansa and Arya's information, that Sansa stood by while Joffrey attacked Arya. I could see his letting Sansa, who was mourning Lady, alone for a few days; but if I were a parent, and I was bringing these kids into a very politically dangerous environment, I would be very concerned about Sansa's actions. He does have The Talk with Arya, but only after they're in King's Landing and Arya has run off again. But he does not talk with Sansa.

And if I'd been Ned, I'd have sent Sansa and Arya home five minutes after Lady's death; rather than allow Sansa to marry such a vicious little beast as Joffrey or Arya to stay anywhere near Cersei; and to h*ll with being Hand/Robert's pal, etc.

[lyvyathan]

Since we know from her misremembering of the Hound's kiss that Sansa is fully capable of looking back and remembering things the way she wishes they had gone

Which kiss ? Where - and what and when did she misremember it?

[ARYa_Nym]

And, getting back to the Mycah Tragedy; I wonder why the heck Ned didn't sit Sansa down for a long talk afterwards. He knew that she lied; he could certainly gather, from Sansa and Arya's information, that Sansa stood by while Joffrey attacked Arya. I could see his letting Sansa, who was mourning Lady, alone for a few days; but if I were a parent, and I was bringing these kids into a very politically dangerous environment, I would be very concerned about Sansa's actions. He does have The Talk with Arya, but only after they're in King's Landing and Arya has run off again. But he does not talk with Sansa.

And if I'd been Ned, I'd have sent Sansa and Arya home five minutes after Lady's death; rather than allow Sansa to marry such a vicious little beast as Joffrey or Arya to stay anywhere near Cersei; and to h*ll with being Hand/Robert's pal, etc.

I had more of a problem with Ned agreeing to be Hand and Cat persuading him because of what happened with Bran. They should have stayed with him. Also, Rickon was practically a baby. His parents just left him at a delicate age. This is why he is so upset now. & all of the Starks should have learned that the Lannisters were dangerous from this incident and not just Arya and Sansa. I think Cat had Southron ambitions though and Ned worshiped Robert.

[lyvyathan]

Personally, I didn't understand why she would go to Cersei either, being much more of an Arya-type of person, I would had gone apeshit and blamed Cersei until I had vengeance on her and her wormy lipped bastard son.

Back to the scene with Micah, Joffrey & Arya, I don't have the books so I can't look it up, but does anyone remember if Joffrey gave her alcohol? I thought he had given her wine (or something) to drink, but I can't remember. Anyhow, I was wondering if she could have been drunk/drugged and didn't want to admit or realize she was buzzed when the everything happened and that might be why she says she doesn't remember?

Joffrey did give her a lot of alcohol - she was telling him she would only drink one cup - and he was telling her she could drink as much as she could like.

It wasn't the alcohol that affected her memory though. She choose to hold off from telling the truth because she did not want to testify against the boy who was going to be her future husband. Ned also mentioned that to Arya.

[Alexia]

Which kiss ? Where - and what and when did she misremember it?

He never kissed her that night in her room. Sansa is fantasizing and convinced herself it happened.

I had more of a problem with Ned agreeing to be Hand and Cat persuading him because of what happened with Bran. They should have stayed with him.

Catelyn wanted him to stay after Bran fell, though. She begged and cried and said that it changed everything.

[brashcandy]

Which kiss ? Where - and what and when did she misremember it?

:) She thinks afterward in ASOS that Sandor kissed her that night of the Blackwater Battle. He didn't, and GRRM has said that it's an actual mismemory.

[ARYa_Nym]

Catelyn wanted him to stay after Bran fell, though. She begged and cried and said that it changed everything.

While this is true it's in part due to her that he initially considered it. In addition, she really wanted the engagement to Joffrey.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

It has taken me forever to get thru this thread and now that every possible angle of Sansa's past behvior has been covered, my personal favorite thing to wonder is what she will do next.

Sansa is no longer the naive little truster and she is being tutored now in the Game of Thrones by Peter Baelish (basically, the master of it).

It is not made clear how she feels about this latest plan for her marriage, but the idea of Harry thr Heir is obviously much more in line with what she has always envisoned for herself. There are just a few prickly little details in they way:

1. She is currently still married to Tyrion. If she is supposed to marry Harry as herself, Sansa of Winterfell, then the world is going to need to be short one more dwarf. I have no doubt Baelish is equal to the task, but there is the problem of finding the little bugger. And, would Sansa really be okay with Tyrion dead for her convenience? Maybe, maybe not.

2. Harry sounds like a jerk so far. If he turns out to be a minor version of Joff, I would imagine Sansa will turn wildling and slit his throat before marrying him willingly.

3. Harry is the Heir to the Vale. Until Robert Arryn dies, Harry and Sansa are lord and lady of squat. Is Robin like to die young? Yes ... But young enough to suit Baelish's plans? Probably not. Now, gosh, who would have the best chance at covering his sweet little face with a pillow some night? The Alayne that Robin likes to snuggle up to. We know Baelish won't do it ..."always keep your own hands clean.". But does his advice to Alayne to keep her hands clean extend to keeping them off the neck of the boy who stands in the way of all these grand plans? And if he told her to do it ...which is she going to turn out to be, Cat's Sansa or Baelish's Alayne?

4. Say for the sake of argument that the dwarf is removed as an obstacle, as is poor little Sweetrobin. Baelish reproduces Sansa of House Stark as the new Lady of the Vale. Baelish has just pasted a target roughly the size of a Clegane onto Sansa's forehead. If he truly adores her, why on earth would he do that to her? Has he been in league with the Targ plot all along, and assuming that the new dragon rulers will by that time have removed all the lions and flowers who want Sansa's head on a spike? Or does he have grander plans for his little Alayne?

Since the story of Cersei's visit to the maegi was finally told, I had always assumed Dany was the younger amd more beautiful queen spoken of. Now I am starting to wonder if Sansa may find herself Baelish's pawn on both counts. Cersei's claws are far from drawn, whatever her late uncle may have thought. Could this be the war of three queens that was spoken of once?

As ADWD ended, I found that I am much more interested in what Sansa will do with all the lessons she has learned, than with how she learned them.

[Raksha the Demon]

From the way Littlefinger ended his introduction of the supposed Marry Sansa to Harry and then Claim Winterfell in Her Name Grand Design, Sansa was not jumping for joy at the prospect. I don't have AFFC in front of me; but Littlefinger said something like, after he'd made his pitch to her, like 'Isn't that a cool plan? Isn't it worth another kiss?' (pardon me while I set my hounds on the man, grooming this reluctant young girl to be his mistress while he's set her up as his daughter really annoys me). I imagine that Sansa felt rather nervous about (A) having to kiss her father-figure in a less than filial way; and ( B) having another Sweet Prince dangled in front of her in yet another scheme to grab Winterfell in her name.

Baelish is setting up Sansa to be a party to SweetRobin's early demise. I am not sure she realizes it yet. I will not be able to forgive Sansa if she just goes all the way along with the plan; whether she puts a pillow on the child's face while he's sleeping in her bed, or just gives him more and more sweetsleep to supposedly keep him in line. She's already been used as an accessory to murder; a patsy in a political coup against the Starks, and by now should be able to take a stand and some kind of delaying or preventive action against the murder of the Lord of the Vale. Robert Arryn is a very annoying kid; but he is her family, and he is an eight-year-old orphan who loves and trusts her. For Sansa to abet his early demise would be a very practical course of action; but an obscenity.

And I think there's a good chance that Sansa is the younger and more beautiful woman who will take all that Cersei holds dear (I don't think Maggy ever specified that this person would be a queen); and she could become a queen.

Tyrion does not need to die in order to invalidate his marriage to Sansa. The High Septon, or perhaps another Septon (I don't remember the hierarchy of the Seven) can invalidate the marriage, based on the lack of consummation. But I think that will take at least several months, if not a few years, unless Littlefinger can bring a high-up Septon to the Vale and he is willing to divorce Sansa (who is also a suspect in a king's murder) on her say-so, without Tyrion's testimony. Perhaps, since Sansa does not ride that much, her hymen might still be intact if she is examined.

[daenerys snow]

I like Sansa, but even I can't understand this. Robert had dismissed the whole affair after he told Ned to discipline Arya and he would do the same with Joffrey. The whole thing was done with until Cersei spoke up. So were I Sansa I would have blamed Cersei.

Let's face it, at that moment in time Sansa was blind with love for Joffrey and was willing to forgive him and his mother anything and it was easier to blame her sister. I have no doubt that she will make Cersei pay for Lady's death sometime in the future now that the blinders are off ;).

wouldn't it be funny if sansa turned out to be the valonqar?

[Woman of War]

I still have the theory that one day Sansa will be quite happy about that twisted marriage to Tyrion. Not because she suddenly starts loving the ugly cripple ( although her memory seems to fail her from time to time..... ;) ), but because this marriage protects her from other, even more ugly attempts to sell her into the next business arrangement where she actually might be forced to "consummate". She might even bring herself to insist that the marriage to Tyrion has been " consummated" to let it become valid. A husband far far away is most likely to leave her alone and not to touch her, while she might come to see all the other candidates as the slime they are.

That would be a Martinesque twist......full of irony, the most unexpected.

[Shaggydog Stark]

wouldn't it be funny if sansa turned out to be the valonqar?

It is quite possible that Sansa could be the predicted younger, more beautiful queen who casts down Cersei and everything she holds dear. But it could also be Dany with help from the Starks or just from Sansa. But I don't think Sansa will be the valonqar. I think that will probably be Jaime. But I am not GRRM, so maybe you are right.

However, what happened between Cersei and Sansa has caused Sansa a lot of grief and imho I think it has become personal so I don't doubt that Sansa will play some part in Cersei's demise and I just can't wait for it to happen ;).

In the books, it came across to me that she didn't want her day to be ruined as well. She wasn't yelling "stop it, you're going to kill her" to Joffrey, she was yelling "stop it, you're spoiling it". This is while he was swinging the sword at her sister.

Also, she did take Joffrey's side. She blamed Arya for the entire situation and she was still in love with Joffrey and making excuses for him after watching him do that. She never yelled for him to leave Arya alone while he was swinging the sword at her, even though she saw that Arya was afraid. However, when Arya got the sword, she yelled at her to leave Joffrey alone. This type of reaction is unfathomable to me. I could never in a million years understand that. If someone tried to hurt my siblings, they would be dead to me. Any love I might have had for them would be gone. As I mentioned before, she didn't have to jump in the fight, just don't lie about it and don't side against your family.

A nine year old watching someone put a sword to the face of her friend and draw blood and wanting to do something to stop that is understandable to me. It is similar to the reaction I would have if it were one of my friends or siblings. I can't relate to any of Sansa's actions in this situation, and a lot of this was in her POV.

Also, I never said that Arya was an angel compared to Sansa, I just said her reaction was saintly compared to what mine would have been in that situation. I know I sure wouldn't have lifted a voice for her or even wanted to talk to her after that happened.

You make good points and I love Arya for her ability to see through people. But to be fair to Sansa, can't you remember what it was like when you were her age and were infatuated by someone? All reason flies out the window, as I recall it ;). She was blind to any faults of Joffrey's or Cersei's. But this is part of Sansa's growing up arc. She assumed life was a song and she has now found out it isn't. She has learned the hard way that there is a very ugly side to life and that people are not all good. I think one of the things I really love about her arc is how she viewed beauty and ugliness when she was young and how she views it now.

She was very superficial and naive as a child and was a little too preoccupied with physical beauty and knights, etc. Now she knows that some people, despite their physical beauty, (ie Joffrey and Cersei) can be very ugly on the inside. Whereas there are people who are physically ugly like say the Hound, but you can find some beauty in them, on the inside so to speak. I like her character arc a lot, it is one of true development. And she has learned the hard way that family is more important than anything especially in Westeros ;). She has had a complete paradigm shift and that is what I really like about her arc.

By the way, I read her chapter last night in AFFC when they are leaving the Eyrie and Myranda has just told her that Jon Snow is now the LC of the NW. Her reaction to this news is very telling of how much her philosophy of life has changed and how much she has changed personally:

She had not thought of Jon in ages. He was only her half brother, but still...with Robb and Bran and Rickon dead, Jon Snow was the only brother that remained to her. I am a bastard too now, just like him. Oh, it would be sweet, to see him once again. But of course that could never be. Alayne Stone had no brothers, baseborn or otherwise.

I am really interested in where her arc will take her. I really like the way she has matured, so I think we can forgive that bit of idiocy when she was an infatuated child ;)

[Shaggydog Stark]

I still have the theory that one day Sansa will be quite happy about that twisted marriage to Tyrion. Not because she suddenly starts loving the ugly cripple ( although her memory seems to fail her from time to time..... ;) ), but because this marriage protects her from other, even more ugly attempts to sell her into the next business arrangement where she actually might be forced to "consummate". She might even bring herself to insist that the marriage to Tyrion has been " consummated" to let it become valid. A husband far far away is most likely to leave her alone and not to touch her, while she might come to see all the other candidates as the slime they are.

That would be a Martinesque twist......full of irony, the most unexpected.

An interesting take but I think Tyrion's end will be tragic on the emotional level. What you describe is too neat. In the end perhaps Tyrion will become exactly how the world sees him. A twisted, demon monkey, I think is how he is described.

I like the fact that he makes an effort to rise above all the prejudice but in the end he will fail because he will discover that nobody loves him. If he ever finds Tysha he will probably have a rude awakening and that will destroy him, I think.

[Woman of War]

Oh no, I was not assuming a "happy ending" for them, both might die a tragic death, but I believe it is in the logic of the story they might come into contact somehow before.

Your prediction for Tyrion might, sad to say, actually be quite accurate although I hope he will stay with us until the very last pages of the books.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Oh no, I was not assuming a "happy ending" for them, both might die a tragic death, but I believe it is in the logic of the story they might come into contact somehow before.

Your prediction for Tyrion might, sad to say, actually be quite accurate although I hope he will stay with us until the very last pages of the books.

I hope they meet at some point. I would be interested to see how such a meeting would go. Perhaps after Joff, LF, and Harry the Heir, Sansa might be more appreciative of what she had with Tyrion, but how would Tyrion react to her? Very interesting situation.

In ADWD we already see Tyrion spiraling a bit out of control. At the beginning of the book he seems to be suffering from a nervous breakdown and the self-loathing was very evident to me at least. The only thing that seems to be keeping him together is Tysha's memory IIRC. I have to reread ADWD but that was the impression I had. I think at some point he will definitely meet up with Tysha and that will be the last straw that changes him completely. I really hope I am wrong, but it is a gut feeling I have. ;)