How many other people really like Tommen?

[Mad Monkey]

I think a lot of people at court would rather have Tommen as King rather than Myrcella -- who is a prisoner of a kingdom whose loyalties are uncertain and whose population is belligerently hostile towards the entire rest of the country (especially the Tyrells and the Crown). Plus, Tommen is easy to manipulate. It doesn't even require effort; anyone could walk in to his throne room and hand him a law and he'd sign it without even thinking about it. And I mean anyone -- Grand Maester Pycelle, Harys Swyft, Jalabhar Xho, Rennifer Longwaters, Noho Dimittis...

[EvilClosetMonkey]

LOL, Brokeback Princes :bowdown:

[Lundy]

Hiya. Newbie here. Newbie with questions. :)

Anybody think Jaime will make some effort to extricate Tommen from King's Landing?

Why does Tommen shout (whilst "jousting") for Casterly Rock? He should be shouting for the Baratheon seat, to keep up appearances, no?

And which rock is the Baratheon seat? I can't keep them straight. :blushing:

Frankly I think since his idiot mother has him shouting for Casterly Rock, his fate is sealed. That's what I thought when reading that bit anyway.

[Delin]

Hiya. Newbie here. Newbie with questions. :)

Anybody think Jaime will make some effort to extricate Tommen from King's Landing?

Why does Tommen shout (whilst "jousting") for Casterly Rock? He should be shouting for the Baratheon seat, to keep up appearances, no?

And which rock is the Baratheon seat? I can't keep them straight. :blushing:

Frankly I think since his idiot mother has him shouting for Casterly Rock, his fate is sealed. That's what I thought when reading that bit anyway.

If Tommen gets into mortal danger, and Jaime hears about it (remember Jaime has no clue Cersei is in trouble, since he burned her letter without reading it), I imagine he would. Tommen is his son and he does seem to show some concern for the kid.

I'd love to see how he reacts when he hears of Cersei's fall from power, assuming she does fall. That might be enough to convince him that Tommen could also be in trouble, as a naive little kid surrounded by courtiers of uncertain loyalty, and motivate him to whisk Tommen away from King's Landing. But at the same time such a turn of events could make it harder for Jaime to get access to Tommen or King's Landing at all, if a hostile faction takes control of the capital and Tommen is virtually held hostage. But that's going into deep speculation.

Baratheon holds Storm's End :)

[lukahnli]

Delin

If I recall correctly from my first reading of the book, Jaime DOES know Cersei is in danger. He DID read the letter. He had it burned without replying to it.....I am too lazy to transcribe the passage in the book, but here is the Wiki of Fire and Ice description.....

"Soon after, Jaime receives a letter from Cersei asking for help. Cersei has been imprisoned by the High Septon and is to go on trial. Cersei requests Jaime as her champion in a potential trial-by-combat. Jaime does not reply to the letter and order it to be burned"

As to whether Tommen will be safe with Cersei out of power......the small council named Kevan Lannister as regent. I can't see Kevan harming Tommen. In fact, the fact that Kevan wanted to get Cersei away from Tommen demonstrates genuine concern over Tommen's well being.

[Delin]

“No, my lord. The bird was from King’s Landing. I took the liberty . . . I did not know . . .” He held the letter out.

Jaime read it in the window seat, bathed in the light of that cold white morning. Qyburn’s words were terse and to the point, Cersei’s fevered and fervent. Come at once, she said. Help me. Save me. I need you now as I have never needed you before. I love you. I love you. I love you. Come at once.

Vyman was hovering by the door, waiting, and Jaime sensed that Peck was watching too. “Does my lord wish to answer?” the maester asked, after a long silence.

A snowflake landed on the letter. As it melted, the ink began to blur. Jaime rolled the parchment up again, as tight as one hand would allow, and handed it to Peck. “No,” he said. “Put this in the fire.”

I got owned :P

I've only read the 4th book once, and somehow I had formed a strong impression that Jaime dismissed Cersei's letter before finding out what it was about. Perhaps that came out of the vagueness of the messag. Cersei doesn't actually tell Jaime what's going on. If Jaime knew Cersei's very life was in danger, and this message wasn't just the raving of a lonely half-mad woman, maybe he'd have done something...

[Winterborn]

Jamie doesn't seem to show much fatherly concern for his children.

I assumed that once they were born, he wrote them off as no longer belonging to him - in the eyes of the realm, they were Robert's children, Cersei would never allow him to endanger them by revealing his relationship with her or acknowledging them as his own. Furthermore, Jaime is of the Kingsguard, who must choose duty over love and renounce their families.

While I can write off a lot of Jaime's actions with these excuses, the fact is, he just didn't seem all that interested in being a father. I mean, it's not until Joffrey is dead that he even starts thinking about taking an active role in his childrens' lives, and he admits, he really doesn't know anything about them. He wasn't terribly torn up over Tyrion confessing to murdering Joff, either.

I do not think that Jaime is a true sociopath, but he definitely has some trouble developing emotional attachments and feeling empathy for others. Including his kids.

This might change, and I can hope that Jaime will step in at some point to help Tommen, but I really don't think the full implications of abandoning Cersei to the Faith even occurred to him as he burned that letter.

Really, I agree with Lukahnli that Kevan has genuine concern for Tommen. Kevan will probably be a better father-figure to Tommen than Jaime ever will.

[lukahnli]

Delin

Ownage was not intended.

I got the impression that Jamie burned the letter as a way of saying "BITCH, you're on your own."

Winter

I agree that Kevan may prove to be an excellent father figure for Tommen.

[Delin]

Jamie doesn't seem to show much fatherly concern for his children.

I assumed that once they were born, he wrote them off as no longer belonging to him - in the eyes of the realm, they were Robert's children, Cersei would never allow him to endanger them by revealing his relationship with her or acknowledging them as his own. Furthermore, Jaime is of the Kingsguard, who must choose duty over love and renounce their families.

While I can write off a lot of Jaime's actions with these excuses, the fact is, he just didn't seem all that interested in being a father. I mean, it's not until Joffrey is dead that he even starts thinking about taking an active role in his childrens' lives, and he admits, he really doesn't know anything about them. He wasn't terribly torn up over Tyrion confessing to murdering Joff, either.

I do not think that Jaime is a true sociopath, but he definitely has some trouble developing emotional attachments and feeling empathy for others. Including his kids.

This might change, and I can hope that Jaime will step in at some point to help Tommen, but I really don't think the full implications of abandoning Cersei to the Faith even occurred to him as he burned that letter.

Really, I agree with Lukahnli that Kevan has genuine concern for Tommen. Kevan will probably be a better father-figure to Tommen than Jaime ever will.

It's true that Jaime has never been much of a father figure to any of his children. He sees himself very much as a warrior; he leaves the kids at home to be raised by mum while he goes out and does great deeds. But I think he isn't apathetic towards them (well, perhaps to Joffrey, but he's hardly the only relative who writes Joff off as an incurable asshole). The conversation between Tommen and Jaime around the time of Tywin's funeral was, for me, a rather touching episode. Jaime doesn't get involved in his illicit children's upbringing but he isn't uncaring about them.

I think to some extent he creates the facade of a psychopathic badass to hide in, and creates it so well that he himself is often fooled by it. e.g. He allows his Kingslayer reputation to shadow him all his life, when he could have come out and explained that he had a good reason for killing Aerys, and at least mitigated his dishonour. Losing his sword hand, and hence losing the "badass" part of his facade, has forced him to rethink who he is / who he thought he is.

Delin

Ownage was not intended.

I got the impression that Jamie burned the letter as a way of saying "BITCH, you're on your own."

I know, just a figure of speech :)

Yes, that's how I would see it as well, although I don't think he quite understood the possible consequences of his action. It seems like an act done out of anger for Cersei's sexual betrayal of him, not a fully informed and reasoned decision. Jaime: "You fuck other men behind my back, and you still expect me to be at your beck and call? Suuuuure."

If he had realised just how much trouble Cersei is in, he might have been willing to put aside his anger and do something for her.

[Lundy]

In the reading of the letter by Jaime it reads something like - Qyburn's words were terse & to the point. Cersei's fevered & fervent.... I think Jaime knows what's happened with Cersei via Qyburn's words & Cersei's fervent pleas for help.

[Phantom]

So, yes! ;)

Haha, if that's what works for you.

Maybe he'll get thrown out a window... then he and Bran could start a club

:lol: I think I just found my one scene I would ask Martin for.

[Monday]

How could anyone NOT like Tommen? Maybe he and Myrcella turned out so well because Cersei seemed to focus most of her maternal energy on Joff.

I have a special spot in my heart for Tommen as he reminds me so much of my own son. If and when GRRM kills him off in a jaw-droppingly horrific way, I'll be inconsolable.

[Mad Monkey]

If Daenerys murders him and still becomes Queen she'll basically prove that she has no moral high ground over the hated Usurper.

[Lord Godric]

If Daenerys murders him and still becomes Queen she'll basically prove that she has no moral high ground over the hated Usurper.

I don't think Dany will kill him personally. But I do believe he will be killed, just not sure how. Maybe it'll be the Tyrells.

[Mad Monkey]

I don't think Dany will kill him personally. But I do believe he will be killed, just not sure how. Maybe it'll be the Tyrells.

Robert didn't kill Elia's children personally, but letting someone else do it is just as bad from a government standpoint. In fact, it would be an exact parallel of the two leaders and Daenerys chance to show the Westerosi that she's not just Robert II or Aerys III.

[Monday]

Robert didn't kill Elia's children personally, but letting someone else do it is just as bad from a government standpoint. In fact, it would be an exact parallel of the two leaders and Daenerys chance to show the Westerosi that she's not just Robert II or Aerys III.

IF he even lasts until Daenerys makes her way to Westeros. I don't trust those sparrows. If Tommen's parentage becomes public I fear the faithful masses will put his head on a spike. The new high septon doesn't strike me as the type to just let the little abomination continue on merrily with his life.

[Mad Monkey]

You're right; that would be a great cover story for Dany, and I guess she better hopes that it happens soon then.

[Solitae]

Robert didn't kill Elia's children personally, but letting someone else do it is just as bad from a government standpoint. In fact, it would be an exact parallel of the two leaders and Daenerys chance to show the Westerosi that she's not just Robert II or Aerys III.

I think she'd realize it was her chance to show the differences if it comes to that point. I just don't see her being the child-killing type, given her history.

Of course, the problem lies in those children growing up and trying to kill her. Maybe if she gives them dragon rides, they'll forgive her!

Sadly, I doubt Tommen and Myrcella will even be alive by the time Dany gets there.

[Lord Godric]

I think she'd realize it was her chance to show the differences if it comes to that point. I just don't see her being the child-killing type, given her history.

Of course, the problem lies in those children growing up and trying to kill her. Maybe if she gives them dragon rides, they'll forgive her!

Sadly, I doubt Tommen and Myrcella will even be alive by the time Dany gets there.

As much as I don't think Dany would kill Tommen and Myrcella, I can't see her letting them survive for the very reason you said. They would most likely grow up thinking the throne was theirs, and could potentially try to win it back. Lucky, for Dany, I don't think Tommen will survive that long either.

[Solitae]

As much as I don't think Dany would kill Tommen and Myrcella, I can't see her letting them survive for the very reason you said. They would most likely grow up thinking the throne was theirs, and could potentially try to win it back. Lucky, for Dany, I don't think Tommen will survive that long either.

Well, there is always the option of explaining their parentage so they realize they wouldn't have a right to the throne anyway.

Tyrion: So, Tommen, Robert wasn't your father.

Tommen: What?

Tyrion: Nope, not your father. Your mother spread her legs for your Uncle Jaime.

Tommen: ... :eek:

And the poor child is scarred for life, thus seeking revenge anyway.